ownor

iTrader: (5)

hey there,

is this the right place to start a discussion on my planned 350 build? sure hope so, but if any of you mods know a better place feel free to move it. be gentle, it's my first real build.

so here's what i got:
'87 L98 350 roller 1pc rms block, all stock. rebuilding it with some parts a local engine builder had laying around and that i got for cheap.
so for bottom end that would be a nodular iron crank (supposedly vortec/LTx by part number), diamond racing forged pistons 4.020", about 9cc domes and 6cc valve reliefs, manley 6" i-beam rods. this combination is out of a LT1 vette wreck.
top end is an older version of the AFR195s with a 67cc chamber, 2.02/1.60 valves and some cnc porting job done; comp cams ultra pro SS 1.6 rocker arms and comp cams magnum pushrods (if the size i got fits). intake is a miniram that has been running with the AFRs already.
cam is a XR276HR type, this one to be exact. for lifters i thought about getting a set of new "LS7" lifters.

going from a 0.020 for the worst and using a felpro 1094 .015 head gasket, this would come out at a 11.13 static CR and 8.75 dynamic CR. according to my engine builder that DCR should be on the edge but still fine with the local ~92-ish AKI fuel.

car is the '89 formula, engine is gonna go in with a Mike Davis overhauled/modded LT1 T56 (and flywheel). rearend is 3.27 9bolt for now but shooting for a shorter rearend for the next season (2014).

what do you all think!? i know there are some knowledgeable people on here so i thought i'd give it a try
any input is appreciated!
thanks

edit: i forgot two details: EFI is gonna be a port-mod version of dynamicefi's/rbob's EBL; exhaust is hooker 2055 1 5/8" shorties and their 3" y-pipe into 3" catco and hooker aerochamber catback.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Pistons in the hole alittle ways? Is that the reason for thin gasket?

I would honestly step up one size on the cam. Nod iron crank will be rpm limiter but at that compression alittle less dcr should help. It will run strong with springs matched to the cam. Will want to visit 6500 rpm often. Should be no problem

Did a similar build, well i tuned it not actually built it. 360" stock crank and rods l98 with old afr 190's all stock as bought, stealth ram, 9.5 to 1 comp, 280xfi. Even with bad valve float it still ran 12.2 at 112 and made 330 whp by 5700, before floating. Would have pulled 6200 peaks and likely beyond to 6500. Streetable with good lope. Tons of power up top.

With your compression, and next size up cam you should see a solid 375 whp

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Oh yeah, right the man i was hoping for i find your nickname all over the forums that i visited for posts of interesting engine builds.

so... yeah the thin gasket is the reason for the block not being decked (yet), although i was taking that into consideration. i'm meeting with my engine builder later this day to find out which way he does the boring/honing machine work etc. so if i can save that money decking would cost me of course that'd be nice, but if needed for getting the boring straight so be it.
i was calculating with 0.025 and 0.020 deck height because i haven't measured it yet with the new rotating assembly (block still stock bore). other than having a true deck, is there any benefit in using a .040 HG and zero deck compared to 0.015 with an established 0.025 deck height?
i see what you say about the cam and DCR, and i kinda feel the same, but i already have the cam now (wasn't expecting this whole rotating assembly deal that came up out of the blue ). yeah power peak wise like 6 to 6.5 should be fine. what do you mean by springs matched to cam? for the crank i would think without detonation anything under 7krpm should be fine to be conservative.

the engine you describe sounds nice, quite a lot of power for 5700, would be surprised to see it peak that 'low' with the 280xfi indeed.. i was actually looking at the 280 and 292 xfi already to be honest. what do you think about the 113 LSA in that combo? as said the xr276 is what i already have kicking around now from when i intended to use the stock bottom end, but i get your point. was that on a stick car? weight and gearing would be interesting too.
thanks for sharing your experience

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thicker gasket imo seals better, but shouldnt have an issue with thinner gaskets if deck and head finish is smooth and clean. Being undecked it may not be of proper surface flatness and smoothness. Have to confirm with your builder.

For valve springs, idk what came stock in those heads. The afr 190's had 8002 springs which are too soft for an aggressive hyd roller. Thats why he floated valves. For the xe grinds 135-145 lbs seat pressure and 360-400 lbs open should do it

Xfi 280 needs a stiff spring like afr 8019's. his cam only peaked at 5700 because it lost all control beyond that. If it had right springs, it was on pace to make 350-360 whp by 6200-6400 i think. Very strong cam. His car was around 3400 lbs with him and 700r4 with 3600 stall.

113 lsa makes it alittle more friendly for driving but it loped hard in stock cubes. Its a nice big cam for a 350. About as big as i would like to go for a street car. Its a better 383 street cam. Xfi 292 would be for very aggressive 383 and better for 400-434 street motors

ownor

iTrader: (5)

ok thanks for the comment, will check. but then again, if i need a real good deck surface for a thin HG, in other words have it machined, i can make it any deck height as well while i'm at it, right?

frankly speaking, i have no idea either, which was another reason for picking the milder cam variant. my afrs are the 195 though, not the older 190, if that makes any difference. just the 195 that they were offering with 68cc, i was told by their tech that should be bout 10 years back from now. anyways.. i should get my spring pressures checked i guess.
yeah sure, got the point about valve float and as you pointed out, it would have made sense for that engine to peak higher than that. btw do you happen to know how about the rear gearing and traction (tires, suspension) was like, just to give me an idea?

yeah right, i just remember reading that the miniram likes tighter lsa's which is why i was questioning the 113 lsa.. and it's a stick so it wouldn't be as bad as with an auto. oh and just for the discussion, think it's quite interesting you say that the 292 is better left for bigger cubes, i was thinking it would be fine for peaking somewhere like 6.5k-7krpm (but sure that's a lil high for my combo).

btw what's the basic type difference between the XR and the XFI grinds??

90camaro355rs

If I were building your engine, I wouldnt use the old springs on the heads , I would get the springs that match your cam that you will be using, Trust me it is well worth the money, having your heads strong enough to handle the cam is needed, the cam your talking about using is only good to 5700 rpm, after that it loses its power band, That cam also calls for 1.5 rockers, you mentioned using 1.6 this will raise the lift some, might be ok there. I would have the block decked to ensure it is true, they dont need to take much off, unless it is bad.

The rear gear will depend on tire size and transmission, do you know what size tire and trans your going to use?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Miniram does well with tight lsa's but a wider lsa doesnt always hurt. It will change shape of the powerband. Wider lsa typically helps carry the power over a broader rpm range, but not like you need that.

Lt1 guys have been running 107-108 lsa's with 224 to 238 deg grinds with good success. Lately a few have moved back to 110-111 with different cam lobes and found great power with better driveability. Xfi's are decent lobes but are aggressive. Cams would be better on a 110-111 lsa or so for the 224-230 ish deg cams on a 350-383 with short runners. But guys have made strong numbers with wide lsa's with variety of intakes. Combo will vary but good heads and intake with cam valve events in the ballpark will always make decent power.

Xfi 292 would peak closer to 7k and pull beyond that, possibly peak higher. I seen it on a lt1 and it kept climbing til dyno stopped at 7000. Still didnt peak. Its close to the cam in my 6500 rpm 400" motor. Some lt1 guys run it and think its mild as a cc306 but i dont necessarily agree.

He ran a 28" radial with 3.90's. been 1.6x 60 foots but always had some issues off the line. May have been valve float starting on the hit but also had some traction issues at times. His tires were abit dated tho. A fresh tire and proper suspension will hook no problem

ownor

iTrader: (5)

well this is my first engine build but still new to me that you would really match springs to the cam, specifically. the concept i had in mind was more like a spring would be either stiff enough or not, kinda..so as long as seat and open pressure is better than needed but not excessively high, it should be ok. no!? here to learn

decking: yeah but even just slightly decking is prolly gonna run me similar money as zero decking, or so i would think.

for the cam range it does indeed say 1800-5800, yeah. i use desktop dyno 2003 a little to get an idea of the powerband and compare between cams. no idea if you guys use that, but anyways, for the XR276HR in my setup i get peak power about 6krpm. find some cam comparison simulations below. it takes some time to find out what's going on with 4 cams plotted like this, but unfortunately i can't change colors or similar to make that an easier exercise. btw i already took the 1.6 RR into account for the lift figures.

for the rear gear i was just wondering what that 360 was, that orr89 had been dialing in.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

good info on the LSA. And yeah when i typed those cams in for desktop dyno, i realized that the XFI have a little more aggressive ramp, at least compared to the XR282/288 (the XR294 has the same ramp rate as the XFI 280 & 292).

I know desktop dyno will be off by at least a good tad, but wondering how it still pulled stronger at 7k. But i have no real expertise to back that up so i'll just remain wondering hehe.

thanks for your input so far guys, keep it coming!

slightly off-topic, but what is a 4thgen 12 bolt rear? (firehawk??)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

4th gen 12 bolt is just a 12 bolt aftermarket rear that is to latemodel fbody dimensions. Basically 2" wider per side.

276 cam with 1.6 rockers will pull to 6500 in a miniram afr 195 setup. Peak near 6000. Its a good size for a 350. Comp cams rpm ranges are rarely true lol, they are alittle conservative

Springs need to have adequate pressure and lift capacity, but also right frequency properties for the rpm. Springs have a natural frequency where they start to vibrate and you dont want that inside your operating range. Basically given same pressures and rates, a smaller diameter spring will have a higher frequency than a larger diameter spring. So you need to watch that. I am a fan of using smallest diameter spring that gives you the pressures required. Beehives with their unique shape have super high frequency so they likely never vibrate and generally can run lower pressures for same control.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

ah i see, that'd be the S60 i guess?

yeah sounds good about the 276 characteristic, seems like that's what it would do on my setup. sure the rpm ranges by a cam manufacturer are just ball park, but imho that way you can at least compare a bit between different cams (as long as they are from one manufacturer).

as for the cam characteristics thing and in general, did i mention the application of the car? i'd like to have _some_ street manners, i do use it for some daily driving duty around town during the summer months, like twice a week on average or so. so not sure about giving up some more low end for a higher top end, but as this is my first build i have virtually no clue on this.

as for the springs, what you stated sounds reasonable. i really havent thought about springs too much yet, since i figured i would just run the AFR stockers since imho they come set up for .600 lift. btw speaking of the "old" springs, topend has roughly 1000 miles street duty and maybe a little racing on it and was in a blown application.
but hey while i'm at it and have it all apart of course that'd be the easiest point to change springs now lol. so i was looking at the LS6 springs but seems they wont cut it.. any other suggestions for OEM-style (price, reliability, etc) beehives i could use to fit the bill here?

thanks again!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Find out what springs are in your heads right now. If they are the small diameter ones they currently sell, they may work as is. Else upgrade to AFR's 8019 springs, they will fit in and use the same retainer. 8017's should work with the xe 276 cam tho, and are what generally come stock in the newer heads.

For street strip, driveability depends on who is driving. Some guys dont like a cam's lope, or a converter thats over stock stall. Some guys think idle at 1500 and running 5500 stall is a street car. All depends. I feel my big 401 is extremely streetable as far as driveability goes, despite its huge heads and big cam.

My friend daily summer drove his 280xfi 360" motor in Houston, through heat and traffic and alot of highway use. Car ran great. It loped hard, but moved well and was mild mannered enough to drive anywhere.

I think a good 224 type cam like that 276xe series is what you want. 110 lsa could make it a very torquey setup with a miniram. I would do that with the higher compression you have. Give it a little less dynamic compression for pump gas.

A good tune will make a combo reliable and driveable. A big cam can be tamed down enough to live with and a good fast port head like AFR will have decent low end to get moving. We had no issues with stock stall and the 280xfi cam. However the rpm range is likely higher than you need.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Yeah guess I'll check on the springs. Easiest way would be to identify them by diameter and height maybe, what do you think?

Well if not necessary idle below 1k would be good but since it's a manual that's prolly not gonna be a prob. I'm so effin curious as to what it's gonna be like driving this combo
Sounds good on the 360 as you describe it. And sure, tuning is a big part of the equation.

Yeah as said I already have the XR276HR so I'd be glad about using that but of couse if it would hinder performance a lot I'd change that out. Shooting for 450fwhp so think that should be in the range even with the 276. It's a 112 LSA tho. I'm not sure if I should do something about the DCR. Local engine builder says it's gonna be fine with the pump gas we have, but it really seems a little high to me.. Not sure, he does know his stuff but has mostly been building LSx stuff for the last 10 years or so.
Is there a point where I'd have to rip apart again to take some DCR out, or would I be ok just playing a little safe on the spark maps and base timing?

Oh and btw, what do you think about using the "LS7" lifters?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You could bandaid it with colder plugs, richer tune and pull timing. Sure it will run ok but its gonna be close. Generally 8.5 dynamic is about as high as you want to go with pump 92-93. Some have done more. LT1/LS1 can usually tolerate more comp due to better engine cooling. Keep a lower temp stat in it and try to keep it cooler.

It will be a stout build. 450 flywheel no problem

Seems like everyone runs ls7 lifters. I did and they did very well. Best replacement lifter for the money imo. I only run the expensive link bar types like Morel when you need to handle more spring pressure and rpm, however ls guys use them to 7500 rpm and 450 lbs open pressure without to much issue... So hard to say when they are considered inapt for the combo

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Yeah that's exactly what I was telling him but he kept on insisting it's gonna be fine on our standard fuel available here, which is in the 92 AKI range. So I figured I'd give it a shot, who am I to distrust his experience ^^ Just not too sure. Good info on the bandaids/precautions.

Sounds good about the lifters. Would you have a method to identify springs other than measuring their pressures?

One more detail I'm wondering about is the port alignment of the miniram and the heads. I also just recently saw that AFR offers their own intake gasket!?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Afr is close enough to 1205 gasket that you really dont need a special gasket. For springs, best you can do is measure outside diameter, inside diameter and if possible, measure pressures and coil bind, then look up what was available for that head and compare.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Alright, i think the preowner had been using 1205 as well but said it wasnt a perfect fit/alignment between intake and head ports. think i even got some pics from his setup's disassembly showing that.
Hopefully i can dig up some info with the spring dimensional measures, we'll see.

Now another detail: what do you think about esoteric block prep procedures like deburring and removing casting flash, porting oil passages etc?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

All good things but maybe unnecessary work in some areas. My block has some burs/casting flash on some of the lifter valley drain areas and doesnt seem to have a problem so i didnt worry about it, neither did my machinist. I guess that would be personal preference

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Yeah seems so. I guess that's really out of the category "can't hurt" .. Think I'm gonna give it a shot since I do enjoy grinding lol and the block still needs thorough washing anyways. If you have any other pointers for block prep just throw it out, I'm glad to have had your assistance here so far. Thanks again!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats about it. Everything else is just machine shop worthy and a thorough cleaning is a must.

Go thru the tpi board and also the local california region boards. There are some stout 350-383 combinations posted that are as streetable as they come while still meeting emissions. Those guys run the newer afr 195's and some other ported castings from edelbrock to trickflow and run cams in the 224 to 230's range and make 360-420 whp. Those guys can comment on the driveability of the cams and smaller cubes.

I know my 383 was pretty hot yet could drive anywhere. Extremely docile despite how nasty it sounded. Likewise that 360 i tuned sounded mean, ran hard but idled 750-800 rpm and drove in houston traffic.

I think you are on a good build path. Proven parts but higher comp than most around here seem to run. Should be interesting.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I just saw this thread and skimmed through it. Looks like a solid plan to me.
I do share just a little of your concern about CR.
Any chance of doing some chamber work to relieve a cc or two? It could even be helpful to flow/burn, depending on how much they've already been worked beyond as-cast. Are they already de-shrouded on the outside of the intake valve to take advantage of the slight overbore?

I agree that 276 cam should be about ideal for powerband in a street/strip application like yours. I believe that MiniRam is similar to the LT1 manifolds insofar as rpm range is concerned, so yes, Comp's quoted rpm range will err 300-500 rpm on the low side.
Also, when you install the cam, see where it falls for ICL. If it's 107 or less, consider using a 3 degree offset bushing to bump it in the retarded direction to help with your DCR concern.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

That all sounds good indeed
Only parts left now that I need to get are the lifters, pistons rings (was thinking total seal?), bearings and some other odds and ends like bolts and gaskets.

On the ICL, a smaller number for ICL (retard) would shift the powerband to lower rpms, is that right? I might take another look at the combustion chambers to check for shrouding as you mentioned. Could be worth relieving 1-2cc and improving burn indeed! Good advice there I guess. How do I deshroud for the bigger bore though? I'm pretty sure the chamber hasn't been touched btw.

The swap will be a whole new drivetrain afterwards, with MPFI, this engine, tranny (TH700 to T56) and a Spohn torque arm setup. Also plan on doing steering parts while all that stuff is out.

Btw there was no discussion about the exhaust setup I got yet Do you guys think it's anywhere close to choking it, or still fine?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would rather see some long tubes or dyno don's shortys into a 3.5" catback or dual 2.5" but you can work with what you have. Open up the collectors on the hookers abit. Get them to 2.25" atleast since they come out the box at 1.9-2"

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, guess bigger is always better The primaries on the 2055 are only 1 5/8", but from what I gather the 3" Y-pipe is quite decent. I opened up the collectors when I installed them back in '09, didn't measure them though. Thanks

P.S. did some more block prep (oil holes) with the Dremel yesterday night, looking good. Also found some casting flash to remove. Looks like i'm gonna haul this stuff to get it dry-ice blasted (that's what my builder normally uses) soon.
I also measured the springs on the AFRs, noticing I don't have much of a clue concerning that stuff They look like it was a tripple spring? So like outer coil spring, then some kind of 'flat', sheet-metal kind spring (maybe a damper between outer and inner or something? idk) and then an inner coil spring.
Approximate measures taken:
OD: 37 mm / 1.457"
ID: 27mm / 1.063" --- hmm actually, as i just noticed this is the OD of the inner spring..
height: 46mm / 1.811" (do you measure that from the spring seat up to where the spring ends under the retainer plate on top?)
Here's the current list of AFR's springs, which no matches for what I got.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

okay guys one more question: rings

conceptually, i really like the total seal gapless stuff... and from reading they generally give good results. now the question, comparing their standard rings (top is plasma-moly faced ductile iron) the gapless is about twice the price (~250ish). does it pay off in my application? i was thinking with the higher compression/cylinder pressure it might be a good idea investing into a good set of rings to actually keep the pressure where it needs be..

also, would i be good with 16 lbs oil ring tension for my application, or would i strictly use the standard (20#) tension oil ring?

thanks in advance for any and all input again

btw my pistons should be 1/16 1/16 3/16
oh and one more tidbit of info maybe, my annual milage is definitely somewhere under 5kmls..

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

No, a smaller number ICL would mean the cam is more advanced. ICL is the number of degrees AFTER TDC to the center of the intake lobe lift curve. And yes, a smaller ICL number (cam advanced) will result in more low rpm cylinder pressure and shift the power band to the left.
In your case, I suggested slightly retarding the cam to relieve some low rpm cylinder pressure.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I never used the gapless style rings but hear good things about them. I would talk to whoever is doing your shortblock. Cylinder wall finish and clearance to piston can change depending on type of ring you use and type of piston you use. But a good cylinder hone should have no problem seating convential style rings and sealing off compression.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Been a while, other things to worry about.. stuck at work and looks like my daily driver has a blown HG.

Anyways, on the ICL: guess i'd need an adjustable cam sprocket to dial that in correctly, or jump a tooth on the sprocket and chain (how many deg is one tooth?)

On the rings, yeah you're right there are quite some differences in block prep machine work/clearances depending on the rings. Just trying to get some opinions whether the gapless were worth the additional expenses.

I plan on having my spring pressures measured to make sure I don't run into problems when it's all together.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, you'll need an adjustable timing set or an offset bushing for the cam dowel/gear. Jumping it one tooth on the cam gear would move your valve events at least 20 degrees.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, that's what I was kinda thinking, but I haven't thought of the offset bushings. Might look into that when it's time. Thanks

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Hey guys,

I'm kinda coming back to this build now! Life is what gets in between right!? Was pretty busy with fixing the engine on my daily driver, only to get into a crash some days later.. So it's parked now because I just didn't have the time or motivation to work on it (school and work).

Anyways, been to the machine shop today to bring in TWO stripped bare '87 GTA L98 blocks one of them was mine, which still has some nice cross hatch and all. the other one is a friend's but his one spun a rod bearing on the crank and thus needed a major rebuild (btw anyone has a stock or similar 350 crank for sale? lol.. my stock crank turned out not too good either). Since the bores on his are rather shot too, we decided to use my block for his stock/mild rebuild and I'm gonna use his block to have it bored etc.
They had a look at the one piston I brought in and said I could actually even re-use the rings because they weren't even broken in yet.. I remember the guy selling me the rotating assembly that it came out of a car that was wrecked shortly after that engine build ^^

So far that's the update. I still need to get my springs checked though and decide on a cam, probably after I have the block done so I can work with actual CR numbers...

Any inputs on block prep again? Gonna do some porting and de-flashing all around again myself. Then have it torque-plate bored/honed to size for the pistons. I think I'm prolly gonna have them do a main align hone as well... What do you guys think about ARP main bolts/studs in this application? like about 450 horse and 7krpm redline.

Hoping to get this rolling again with some more inputs. You guys already had some great input. Thanks!

ownor

iTrader: (5)

anyone? TTT
thanks in advance

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd go studs everywhere where possible. I like them.

Tx 91Z28

Studs are way better. The cam area , myself I would go with a Voo Doo Lunati profile, they seem to pull stronger on top end than the cams you have mentioned.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Alright well so I'll be adding main studs to the list I guess and an align hone after that right?

I'm currently toying with the idea of swapping the nodular iron crankshaft of this build concept out for something forged.. Buddy with the mild 350 could need a crank. What do you think, is it worth the effort for me? I think I would gain some more rev-range, but not sure if 7.5k or whatever is still viable without throwing thousands at the valvetrain
I'm just thinking that right now I'm building the block to last, and I'm not gonna change parts of the rotating assembly later down the road. Before that I'd prolly go to some LSx. But with a tough block (read: with a stronger crank than the nodular iron) I could come back later to change cam or heads or whatever and make more power at some higher speeds maybe.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

I spent the better half of the day looking and pricing 1 pc rear main seal crankshafts.. I found some nice lightweight ones (Scat) that I like. What do you guys think... Worth it or not?
Would be upgrading from this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-14088526

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Afr 195's and 276 cam wont go over 6500 rpm so forget about 7500 lol

If you want 7500 rpm you should consider forged crank, lonnng rods with light pistons. Possibly a 6 or 6.125" rod. Then get new style afr 210's (still alittle small) mainly because of the lighter 8mm valves like ls motors have. Will need atleast 8019 upgrade springs shimmed to 170 lbs seat. Cam lobe cant be too aggressive but would need closer to 242-246 deg duration an .580-.600" lift i'd say. I would consider old magnum high lift lobes. Titanium retainers would help. Ls7 lifters can do the rpm but morels would be better but 5 times more money lol

So yeah you would have a bit more money into the setup but doable, except cam that big in a 355 isnt that streetable.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Heh, I was sure as hell planning to swap that cam out might swap it either way anyways ^^

Rods and pistons shouldn't be an issue. Rods are Manley Sportsman 6" rated for 8krpm and 550hp, at a 575 gram weight. Pistons are forged 23° Diamond Racing, 500 gram with rings, wrist pin is 133g.
Good point about the heads upgrade for more revs, but as said I might just build the intended (AFR195 and 276 cam) for now and then upgrade.. I do like the idea of solid lifters lol but certainly not for this year. Also thanks for the pointers what I'd have to change for cam profile, springs, retainers to help it live.

I was primarily trying to build a really nice short block NOW as a foundation and then add an upgraded top end later... How's that?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You should be good to go. If you went forged now, might as well throw in next size up cam especially with your compression now

cuisinartvette

If you plan on spinning it to 7+ better do an all forged bottom end now that cast crank will let go at some point. Those rods are good for 550hp max

Align hone yes. Dont get too worried about block prep. If you go solid some guys like to tap the holes around the lifters and plug them off some dont Id just leave as is

On decking dont get too wrapped up about a 0 deck. Over time you can get piston rock or god forbid something stretches and the piston kisses the head
I left mine .015 in the hole adn used a .028 gasket I believe. Get it close youre good imo. Your motor will never know the difference plus depending on your block/parts your deck height may vary a little anyways planning is always good but overthinking nah..

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Good inputs you two, thanks!

@Orr yeah I might just do that with the DCR that far up... Hmm, think I'll see first how far I end up in the hole with this setup, so i could still fine-tune SCR then? Or maybe for now the 276 would be ok since I already have it here and I'm not too concerned this engine will be exactly slow for my first build lol.

@cuisinart exactly, would be good to build the short block more into the "bulletproof" direction while I'm at it, and with my buddy maybe needing the crank it would prolly be a good time to get a forged one although that nodular iron piece don't seem too bad from what I read online.
Align hone, yeah I'm also gonna run ARP main studs (only got 2 bolt mains) so main honing for sure. Do you guys work on aligning the cam tunnel or lifter bores too?
Hmm yeah about the deck you're prolly right as long as its not too far off, e.g. shifted or tipped from one side to the other. And as said above about 0 deck I'ma go check the deck clearance to establish target CR. 0.043 squish as you have it sounds close enough just as you said it! Maybe with good crank/rods/pistons could go a hair closer from what I read but then again this is my first build

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can always adjust the cam's install centerline to play with dynamic ratio. But 276hr plus 195 afr's isnt exactly a slow combo. It should make pretty goood numbers

ownor

iTrader: (5)

That's also true yeah on the ICL... Btw is it possible to change the ICL by using an offset key after removing the t-cover and chain?
Also another basic question, do you think numbers would change a lot between AFR195 Street vs. the Competition Port version with everything else the same? Reason I'm wondering is the heads I have are like 7 or 8 years old and probably a bit different from what they're selling these days... Preowner said he had AFR put some kind of competition port job on them at some point tho, so not too sure what to expect
I think running the 276 for now should be pretty nice too. And we all know that at some point we get tired of the same power level In the words of country music artist Chris Ledoux (RIP) - "man can always stand a little bit more horsepower"
Also I'm guessing the 276 should be a lil' easier to tune.. Gonna be running one of dynamicefi.com / RBob's EBL Flash with the PortMod.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If your new to tuning try the 276 and get used to it then upgrade later. Will make it easier.

Old afr's are still good heads but if they are ported alittle they should be pretty close to the street eliminator. Not much difference between comp port and street in most builds. Full race you will see few more ponies but i dont see the justification in 500$ more

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Well I've had the EBL for like 3 or 4 years now so I'm somewhat familiar with tuning but only on rather mild engines (mostly the TBI L03). So think the 276 should be a good starting point to gain more experience.
I get what you're saying about the comp port AFRs, yeah quite a difference from a price standpoint, i can tell that at least
Any input on lifter bores/cam tunnel or just leave as is?
Thanks again

cuisinartvette

You can certainly have the checked main thing is sizing of lifter bores esp if youre going roller.
CC AFRs on "the right" motor might get you 10-15chp
Always degree the cam even if its all new stuff and going in "straight up".
Have read more than 1 person doing that and come to find the timing set was out of wack throwing things off by a lot

I would not run a cast crank anywhere near 7k. Can you sure, have some probably. Will it hold long term or take out all your expensive parts should it come apart count on it (if not buy a lotto ticket). It will all be shrapnel.


I suspect most of them that claimed to had a stock bottom end and figured "revving" it to 7k or a quick burnout to means its fine.

Use a quality balancer dont worry about weight

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Whatever lifters you use measure them and the lifter bores to see what the clearance is. Machine shop should check for diameter and straightness

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Sorry I'm not sure what this sentence means ^^ Can you clarify some on this? So I would have the machine shop align hone the cam tunnel and put like +0.010 OD cam bearings in, is that right? I can see that happening but for the lifter bores do you check their position and centerline direction in the block or just their OD and surface?
Is it common for the lifter bores to have some kind of taper or run-out or what I look out for here? I'm prolly just gonna run the LS7 lifters for now btw.

Understood on camshaft degreeing and what was said about the cast crank.. although the nodular iron might be a little better. I'm not really doing circle track or endurance racing at high rpms for hours but yeah better be safe I guess... and while I'm at it, I thought getting a lighter crank would prolly be nice.
I really need to find out more details about balancing btw.. Feel a bit confused right now.

For the balancer here is what I have and was planning to use http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-90002 .. what do you think?

DeltaElite121

Lifter bores also take a considerable amount of wear and should be checked like everything else. The last thing you want is inconsistencies where a LOT of pressure is being placed. Your machine shop can take care of that for you and it's not terribly expensive by any means.

What are you confused about with balancing?

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Well the thing is this, that machine shop is in fact doing SBCs sometimes but they are not all that common over here to begin with. When i dropped off the block last week i asked if they were usually working on the lifter bores as well and he negated. Not sure if he was just referring to lifter bore overbore or something.. Need to ask monday. So the high pressure/load on the lifter bore walls result from high spring load and leverage possibly created over the rocker and pushrod on the lifter?
My impression so far was that you only blueprint this area to equalize valve timing and such.. Also what exactly is it that you do about the cam tunnel?
For balancing, i need to know how vital it is for stock-type rebuilds in case of my buddy using stock pistons/rods on that nodular crank i have now and might offer to him. Is it correct to assume that a crank usually comes balanced for a certain bobweight? How's that difference for say the nod crankshaft and some 45 lbs lightweight piece? What i'm also confused about a little is with the internal and external balancing thing..
Thanks for your input