86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I've never had an issue with those Felpro .015" coated shim gaskets, even on used parts. Just make sure there is no damage to the surfaces. The tighter quench will pay dividends in all aspects; you need all the help you can get with that shortblock!

Don't rely on those Comp graphs to tell you how it will drive. There's a reason they don't show you the graph below 2500 for that 276 cam. It will be very weak at those lower revs in your low CR engine.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Do you use any sort of spray sealer for them?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

U could go with the trick flow 175's with the 56cc chamber ? Should help ur compression significantly and held with low end torque ... But if u plan on anything over 350ci in the future like a 383 I'd go bigger .... I have these heads on my 305 and they looked pretty good out of the box ...

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Those are the same as the summit heads. Maybe a better price on those

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You were complaining earlier about how people wanted you to get rid of your shortblock. This is why.

More compression means you can run a bigger cam and keep your low end torque. You seem to, with this comment, not understand that the larger a cam, the less torque you have. When you go to a larger cam you're shifting the engine's power band upwards, and as long as the heads can support flow at the higher engine speeds, horsepower always goes up. You can make a 600hp engine out of a 350 if you wanted. As long as you had heads and cam that can make power at the necessary RPMs for that.

horsepower is, basically, torque x RPM. Torque remains relatively constant and is based on how much air your heads can flow and more than that based on how big your engine is. There area lot of other factors, but basically your displacement will be the biggest factor in how much torque you make. At the extremes the cam will make a bigger difference. But lets assume we have an engine with a given set of heads and displacement. You put in a cam that makes peak power 3500 RPMs. You put in another cam that makes peak power at 7000 RPMs and your horsepower will double, even though your raw torque should be relatively close in either build. Formula 1 cars with their 2.4L v8's make less than 300 ft lbs of torque, but they do it at 18,000 RPM, that's how they make 900 hp.

As I said, there's a lot of fudge factors in there, engines are complicated things, but the point is, pushrod V8's have a limitation. They are usually only good for a 3000-4000 RPM power band. You can make that 1000-5000, or you can make that 4000-8000. A cam will have a certain range it works for, and cylinder heads will have a certain range they work for. If they dont match, the motor sucks. If they do match, and the motor is low compression, the motor will suck. A whole lot of things need to work together to make that work well.

Compression and/or displacement will allow you to run larger and larger cams and still be able to actually drive it around. But just shooting for hte moon with a giant cam will leave you in a car that has ZERO low end torque.

The problem with your shortblock is the pistons are low compression. It's got nothing to do with the cast crank and crappy rod bolts and cast pistons. Those will be an issue if you get a giant cam that needs to spin 7000 RPMs to get to the power level you want, but you'll be far more annoyed at how gutless it will be pretty much everywhere due to the lack of low end torque. It's a balance. A larger cam will always make less low end power. A smaller cam will always make more low end power. That's the tradeoff you make. That's also why roller cams are better, they can make more high end power without sacrificing as much low end power due to their aggressive ramp rates.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Only if I see an area where the rubber coating looks thin or scratched, I'll shoot that area with some Copper Spray-a-Gasket.

DeltaElite121

Your problem is you're ultimately expecting too much from a foundation that was not built towards your current intentions.. which is why you're running into so many problems trying to figure out what to do now.

I told you exactly what you need to do in order to get your goals with your CURRENT setup. The problem is - you'll be making a sacrifice by doing it NOW and making future builds difficult to balance the compression ratio with every day shelf pistons like mentioned before.

Sounds like it's homework time, eh?

1gary

What do I need to do here??. How many times do I have to insist cam/compression compatibility??. Look that isn't a guess.It is the way it works.You want to build a turd??. Go ahead.Hp street engines rarely get into the power curve in the higher rpm ranges they require.Those guide lines of 9.5 scr and 10.5 scr with a dcr of 8.5 are not guesses either.Sure you can go higher and de-tune for the "range" you find in today's gas.You leave more on the table than you gain.Bank on it.

I'm going to the cheap seats.Prove yourself that you are willing to learn.Otherwise what is the point of this thread??.

BLACK Z

I am trying to learn, That is why I am asking ? and have spent HRS searching the internet. The info is great.

SO Let me see if I am getting on the right track, I should shoot for heads with 180 CC Runners and 62-64 CC Chambers? Roller Cam on the smaller side? .015 Gasket.

skinny z

There shouldn't be any reason why you can't build a reasonable performer out of Goodwrench short. Despite all of it's limitations it's still a foundation for all the parts that can move on the next build. The camshaft will make or break this one and the heads selected can easily serve this build and the next one. Yes it's going to be necessary to give up horsepower but the OP seems ok with that. Just as long as it's a decent performer. I think that with a small cam, there'll be enough torque to blow the tires off especially with the 5 speed.
The graphs weren't intended to show how much power you're going to make. They were meant to illustrate the difference between two choices. The actual values are open to interpretation but the differential is relevant. The 276 is a nice cam but it needs some CR. The 264 could work with less than 9:1 and it doesn't give up anything in the torque department. Peak torque anyway.
Interesting stuff on the .015" gasket. I have no experience with them so I couldn't comment. Being able to use them here will really help in the CR department. So would 62cc heads.

skinny z

Sounds about right.
Some calculations for SCR and DCR:
Bore 4.00, stroke 3.48, piston dish 18cc, piston height relative to deck, .025.
gasket .015 x 4.100, rod 5.7.
SCR
64cc head. 8.9:1
62cc head. 9.1:1
DCR
62 cc head XR264HR cam. 7.66:1
64 cc head XR264HR cam. 7.55:1
62 cc head XR276HR cam. 7.34:1
64 cc head XR276HR cam. 7.2:1

Even with 64cc heads you can get 9:1. That leaves a little room for the next shortblock when dialing in the SCR.

JaBoT

So basically stick with 180/85cc head. get the chamber cc as small as possible 64 or lower. Go down to a 58cc if you can. Talk to the manufacturer, even if you get them in a low cc like 58 they will still be fine for any future builds and it will help get the compression up now.
If you running a 64 or 62cc head either the xr264 or I prefer the lunati 20120710. It has more lift a higher ramp rate and a tighter lobe separation.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=4576&gid=289
If you get the heads with a lower chamber cc like 58 then you could go up a cam size.

on a side note I can not figure out why profiler would recommend a 70cc head. that is just mind boggling.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

I still say go with the trick flow super 23 175cc heads with the 56cc chamber problem solved and u still have a good flowing head that's capable of 500 hp

skinny z

I may have checked the wrong cam but I think that Lunati has a 112 LSA. The XR264HR has a 110.

skinny z

SCR
56 cc head. 9.7:1
That's certainly an improvement. While I have no experience with the Trick Flow head, I'm surprised to see a 1.94/1.50 valve combination. The aluminum is nice. When phase II comes along, it'll be easy to reach and capable of handling a 10.5:1 SCR. Lots of cam choices then.

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

I think they were designed with 305's in mind.

skinny z

I believe that's true. The catalog blurb mentions small bore.

JaBoT

Sorry it was late when I posted, I meant less overlap.

While they would work very well for his combo no and they flow pretty good considering the small runner and valves I don't think it would be a good choice for using with an upgraded engine in the future.
I still say have some profiler/jegs heads brought down to like 58cc or even 56cc.
Either head with the smaller chambers will allow you to go with the bigger cam and make some nice power all around.
Flow #'s for trickflow 170
.100" 62 57
.200" 127 109
.300" 180 142
.400" 219 167
.500" 242 181
.600" 245 192

Profiler 185
185cc with 2.02 Valves

.200 135 110
.300 201 145
.400 245 180
.500 265 206
.600 270 213

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

Black Z, even though the Goodwrench 350 is a deep dish 'smog' style motor, it's still a 350. It'll respond favorably to a simple H/C/I swap.
We did my dad's 76 corvette with a 350 short block we got for free with cast dished pistons, and slapped on a performer intake, Brodix IK180 heads with 64cc chambers, and put in a comp cams XE262H flat tappet cam with 1:6 roller rockers.
We got the compression to 9:1, and it ran strong. It was a fun car even with the stock torque converter.
My opinion, don't worry about what the others say about the short block. Just use it.
But I personally wouldn't bother with a roller cam at this point. If you stick with heads in the 180cc intake range, a roller cam really won't be that much of a benefit.
I also wouldn't go any smaller than the 262H cam we used. It'll work great for you. Especially with a 5 speed.
Also, stick with a 64cc chamber for the heads, and try to get as close as possible to 9:1 compression.
An easy 350 hp motor right there with good street manners.

BLACK Z

Now we are get some where all of the info in the last few threads has been great. Jabot I have heard great things about Profiler but the guy i spoke with was not very helpful nor did he seem to care or know what he was talking about.
I know I am giving up some power by staying with this Short Block, I am ok with that, I want this Combo to run as good as I can make it though. If and When I upgrade Short Block I would like to transfer as many of these parts over as I can, If I have to get new Cam I am ok with that but would like to keep the heads. I don't think I want to go any smaller then 62-64 CC.


What is the deal with Straight vs Angle Plugs? I have Edelbrock Headers.

What Rocker's should I go with Roller tip or Full roller?

WHat Lifters? I am leaning Toward roller Cam.

Can you guys help with what Gasket set to go with ( Brand and what ever else )

I am leaning with stay with all Comp Cams stuff and RHS Heads Unless you guys Say different.

I worry about mixing and matching stuff but will if you guys can provide links to what I should get. Thanks

skinny z

I can tell you that I run a full Comp valve train and also have RHS heads albeit in iron.
I like the looks of the RHS Pro Action head you posted a link to. The valve jobs are superb and they are very well cast. You should still be able to get your CR close to 9:1 and I think would have good results with a cam with 264/270 duration. Whatever your cam choice, pay attention to the intake valve closing point. It has a large impact on the compression you're trying to build. Make a mistake and you won't be happy with the results. If you can get your DCR in around 7.5:1, then you'll be at the bottom end of the range for decent street performance. 7.5-8.5:1 is the target range as I understand it.
The rest of the hardware is as your budget dictates and how far into your next build (if there is one) you intend to invest. I don't like to skimp here and went out of my way to upgrade my RHS heads to the Comp 26918 Beehive. RHS offers a couple of spring configurations for flat tappet and roller. I felt it's important with the larger cam I'm running. I also went with their then new short travel lifter. Full roller rockers and one piece hardened pushrods too. I'm not sure what you would save with running less although you could.
And though there are arguements to the success of flat tappets, I choice to avoid them after having one camshaft failure (I blame myself) and another fuel pump cam lobe go away and ruining a couple of nice blocks in the process.
I think the .015" gasket is the link to this engine being able to produce any reasonable torque. Short of spending the money and getting the heads milled. With new heads and a low mileage short, thinking is you'll be ok.

1gary

Quench??.

skinny z

Regarding quench.
Unfortunately with the Goodwrench piston, there's not a lot (as in none) of quench pad to build any kind of reasonable squish area. That'll be a drawback to this build and some combustion efficiency will go out the window with it. However, we can still get the piston to within .040" of the head using a .015" gasket and relying on the stock piston below deck of .025", which in reality is probably more. The small pad that makes up up the outer circumference of the piston will help a little by reducing the amount of end gas trapped.

In case Gary is referring to my own build, and my quest for an optimum SCR and DCR in which circumstances lead to TOO much compression, rather than give up the optimum .040"-050" piston to head clearance we strive for (something Gary and I have discussed in length in another thread), I had some combustion chamber work done, deshrouding the valves a little more and gaining 2 cc. That allows me to stay in the prime quench zone while lowering my SCR from almost 10.4:1 to just under 10:1. I've learned that 10.4:1 and a short cam isn't workable on pump gas. At least not within reason. 10:1 and iron heads with a DCR less than 8.5:1 will run all day on premium.
For what it's worth Gary, I always agreed with you regarding my taking a step backwards in my build if I simply fattened things up with a thicker head gasket. Looks like I'll be able to have it as intended. High compression (relatively), small efficient chamber, flat piston and a tight quench.

skinny z

RHS Pro Action heads. 64 cc. Straight plug. $1360/pr assembled
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...2-02/overview/

Comp XR264HR roller cam. $297
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...12-8/overview/

COMP Cams Short Travel Race Hydraulic Roller Lifters. $535
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...3-16/overview/

COMP Cams Hi-Tech Pushrods (length to suit). $135
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...9-16/overview/

COMP Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Rocker Arms. $314
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...make/chevrolet

Fel-Pro Performance Head Gaskets. $32
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...make/chevrolet

$2705

There's an idea of a typical top end purchase based on the discussion.
You don't necessarily need the spec of many of those parts. There is money to be saved by backing off on the rockers, pushrods and lifters. I'm familiar with Comp so I picked them. There are a lot of other choices. Plenty of choices for heads too. I didn't look at the prices of any of the other links.
There are all of the other bits you'll need if you don't have them. Carb, intake, all the driven accessories, ignition, headers. Plus all the sundry items like fluids, belts, hoses.

JaBoT

Gary why is it that you think every engine needs to be 100% perfect in spec blueprinted? He is not trying to build a perfect blueprinted engine from the ground up trying to make it as efficient as possible. He just wants to make more power and still be a nice street engine. And with the smaller cam and heads it will!
Is the quench perfect? no
Is it going to be better than it is now. yes
Is the quench going to be the same or better than 99% of "performance" long blocks you can buy. yes
Is it going to make more power and torque across the entire rpm band than it does now. yes

Although I would still talk to rhs and see if they can send you the heads in 58cc. It will make a difference.

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

LOL that's exactly what I was thinking when I read through this thread. Talk about overcomplicating a relatively mild build.
Black Z asked for heads and cam recommendations. You know he wants to use the Goodwrench shortblock, and that he's aiming for mid 300 horsepower or so with decent street manners.
I think it took until the third page before someone actually recommended heads and cams.

BLACK Z

Yes it did take in till the third page before I was getting any where it seems,

I need, Heads,Roller Cam, Timing Chain,Lifters, Roller Rockers, Pushrods, Gasket set, Cam Button, Stiffer Timing chain cover, Spark Plugs and the rest I Should have.

What about Straight Vs Angle Plugs in my Application?

Thanks guys for your time and help.

1gary

Silly me.To think these threads are a teaching model.

BLACK Z

Anyone Know if Angled Plugs will give me a hard time?

Cam some of you said would be good.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=157&sb=2

Can I step up to this cam?

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...x?csid=158&sb=

Cam Comp Said I should use.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=159&sb=2

The One I was thinking about is between the other two.

JaBoT

They are about teaching, and he has learned that he can have a nice performing street engine without having to go crazy worrying about getting the perfect quench!
Not every engine needs to be 100% perfectly blueprinted to be a good running and performing engine.

As far as the cam... I wouldn't go bigger than the second one unless you cut the heads down to 58 or 56cc.
Also unless you want your engine to sound like a sewing machine don't run comp hydraulic roller lifters. The best part is they swear there is nothing wrong with them while they keep sending you replacements and telling you to trey different valve lashes!
Use morels

1gary

So your suggestion is to ruin a new set of heads to fit this set-up only and not worry about quench at all which IS a anti-detonation tool??.

Yeah many turds have been built that way.Really mindless.............

Just for the record.I have NEVER posted anything about blueprinting.Never!!.So cut the B.S..

BLACK Z

JaBot What type of Lifter do i have to use since this will be Retro set up? Cna you link me to a few different choices that will work with RHS Heads, My Block and Retro ROller cam? Only reason i was going Comp is because they are know Brand and they would work with the set up I am going with.

Comp said to me it is there Cams that make them sound like Sewing Machine not there lifters.

Gary What are you saying may cause me issues?

1gary

a 58 or 54 cc head is not useable on any future builds outside of a race only engine.

JaBoT

Trying to get the perfect quench is part of blueprinting. So you cut the b.s.
Detonation?
At that compression there are absolutely no detonation issues with the quench the motor will have. If there was it would have detonation issues now because the quench is even worse than it will be with the new heads! Once again there are thousands of engines that run and perform just fine with a quench over 45. Is it optimal, no. but that does not mean the engine will not run well or make power or have detonation issues. And there are thousands of good performing engines out there that prove this.

Milling the heads to 58 cc is ruining them? They can still be used on any future build. A 383 with a off the shelf -16cc piston from srp is roughly 10.5 comp. How is this ruining the heads for this setup only?

Turds? Just because everything is not in 100% perfect spec the way it should be on paper does not mean its a turd. And someone with your experience should know this!

JaBoT

That is just 100% false

DeltaElite121

I don't think it's ruining them, it just limits the selection of shelf pistons you'de be able to choose from. As long as you're OK with that, then fire away, IMO.

BLACK Z

Guys What Lifters should I use?
Any issues with Angle Plugs?

JaBoT

morel 5372 street lifters or you can upgrade to 4602 pro lifters

I don't know about the plugs since I never used those headers.

BLACK Z

WHat about with Other Headers? DO they work ok in our cars? I did a quick search on those Lifters, Not many Places seem to sell them, DO you have a place you like to deal with? DOes summit or Jegs carry them?

Also I have MSD Billet Hei vac advance, WIll I have Dist Gear/Cam Gear issues?

1gary

Not sure who's calculator your using.Show me even a +18 piston and what the SCR is!!!.

JaBoT

The same calculators everyone else is using! I think it's your calculations that are off! Or you just assumed you are right and didn't even check it.

A 383 with a 16cc dish off the shelf piston and 58cc head is 10.6 with a quench of 36. With an 18cc piston as you sarcastically suggested it goes down to about 10.4. That's pretty spot on compression for an aluminum headed pump gas motor.

O and using funny emoticons doesn't actually make you right

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

Gary, some of your posts make me laugh.
GM's own ZZ4 runs the old L98 corvette heads with........drumroll please........58cc chambers.
I didn't realize GM used ruined heads on their ZZ4 crate motors.....

1gary

I bought and sold those heads.Butttt what came with them as some very special deep reverse dome pistons.I am trying to remember,I think they where + 24cc's.Can't buy them off aftermarket shelf stock.

skinny z

I gave a list of possible components. No reply.
As for angled plugs, while I've never used any personally I have seen that are interference issues with different brands of headers. There are proven power gains from the use of an angled plug however at these power levels I'm not sure its worth the hassle of burned plug boots or trouble removing plugs.

skinny z

I think they are. I learn all kinds of things.

skinny z

Based on the poor SCR produced with the piston, head gasket and chamber volume involved, a 264 cam is about as large as you might want to go. Anything larger shows that the low engine speed torque falls off. What you're left with is a poor performer.

skinny z

I had been using Comp 853 lifters for years without any trouble. Then for whatever reason, one of the new lifters (directly from Comp) failed. It was replaced gratis by Comp but then another one failed. I think Comp was suspecting that they may have a QC issue as they sent me a set of their (new at the time) short travel lifters (15853) as a replacement. No problems in my build or another of a friends. I cant say one way or the other about the Morels other than I hear they have a good reputation.
Yes, my engine sounds like a sewing machine but given the specs of MY cam, Im not surprised.

1gary

Aaaa-it's not a 383.

1gary

X2.

1gary

Yes the angle plug heads/headers can be a PITA.Don't think for your use,it's worth it.