Arctic White 91 RS

My 387,000 mile 91 RS won't crank. I drove car home everything was fine. Two hours later the car won't start.

Turn the key and nothing - no clicking, the starter doesn't turn over. This almost like trying to start a car in drive instead of park or neutral. Confirmed the gear selector is in Park.

Need suggestions before I have car towed to a local shop.

I have done the following:
Moved gear selector to neutral and Park and back. No start.
Checked the battery terminals. They are clean and secure.
Pulled and tested the fuses under the dash for computer, VATS, injection and cranking.
Listen and can hear fuel pump come on.
Tried the other VATS key and car didn't start.

I haven't hit the starter with a hammer yet. The starter is only 4 years old with about 50k miles on it.

Battery is 4 months old. Car had a tune up 2 months ago coil, cap, rotor, button etc and has been running fine. Three weeks ago transmission mount was replaced & an exhaust hanger.

I'm up for suggestions.
Thank you.

ternandes

iTrader: (7)

If there is no click, that means the solenoid is not engaging. That could mean that your battery voltage is too low, or that the solenoid is not getting a signal when you turn the key.

Put a voltmeter on the battery. If you have less than 12V, that indicates a problem with your battery or charging system, but further troubleshooting is needed.

While you have the meter on the battery, have someone turn the key to crank the engine. If the voltage does not drop, that is an indication that the crank signal is not reaching the solenoid.

If the voltage drops, it means that the signal is being received. If it drops a lot, say, below 9V, that's a good indication that the battery is weak, or you have a bad connection somewhere.

In that case, try to jump start the car. If it starts, check your charging system. You should be reading in excess of 13.5 volts with the engine running, after disconnecting the jumper cables.

Another test you can try is to jump the terminals on the solenoid to see if the starter turns. If it does, it probably means that you have an open circuit. This could be a broken wire, a bad ignition switch, or a bad neutral safety switch.

The key is to take careful steps to isolate the problem. Post your progress and I'm sure everyone here will be glad to help you.

BTW, congrats on having a car still running with 387K miles on it.

Arctic White 91 RS

Appreciate the trouble shooting help. Going to pick up a volt meter.

I put the battery charger on the battery and it immediately showed fully charged.

musicallymrm

Bad Solenoid/Starter if you're lucky on that one Easy Fix and an easy test. If you can jack the car up on the right hand side, crawl up under it (make sure you have it securely supported and in park unless you have access to a lift) Make sure the key is in the "run" position. jump the solenoid start terminal to the battery terminal on the starter (I always use a big screwdriver.....they actually make a remote starter switch for this) If the engine turns over and starts, then it's a bad solenoid switch. On the other hand, if the the motor turns over and does not start, then it "is" the VATS system. The culprit is the two little contacts inside the ignition switch (little spring looking things) that make contact with the resistor on your key. My 91 Firebird has had that problem before. Several people with VATS that I know have had that problem. VATS is great security when it works but when it doesn't, it's like and old Toyota 2TC engine with 100,000 miles on it......less I digress.

The quick fix? replace the ignition switch. The cheaper fix, (if you have a spare key) is to find the VATS leads to the switch (pull the bottom cover off the dash under the steering wheel) and there will be two small gauge yellow wires going up the steering column. Cut the two wires allowing for an accessible length and to your spare key, solder one wire to the metal contact on each side of the key. Place some electrical tape around the key and secure the key to an available bracket under the dash. Replace the cover back on the bottom half of the dash. The car should start right up and you will never have another issue again with VATS again at least not in this millenium. Yes, I know you've just disabled your security system on the car but it's a liveable work around for and annoying problem. Mine has worked like this for the last 10 years. Car is now secured by Smith and Wesson

graysmoke

Have you tried starting it in neutral? I would check your neutral safety switch.

musicallymrm

Graysmoke, I had forgotten all about the neutral safety switch (although for me, the last time I encountered that on a GM vehicle, it was in 1973 on a then two year old '71 Firebird 350 Formula.....it was my mom's car and I was 14) I think the OP said that he had over 300,000 on his RS. God only knows where something electrical may be corroded or worn. I do know that those two small VATS contacts in the ignition switch has stranded a whole lot of 3rd Geners.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Neutral safety switch.
Fusible link on starter wire.

Arctic White 91 RS

Everything I could check seemed ok. Voltage drop when attempting to start, tap starter with hammer etc...in short had the car towed to my favorite local shop late yesterday.

Turns out it was the VATS wire in the ignition key tumbler. It had broken. Will have car back tomorrow.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions on trouble shooting. I was able to give the shop a list of what it wasn't and the issue was found very quickly.

musicallymrm

Glad you were able to get a handle on it ....in my best Hodgins voice (from "Bones"), " I AM KING OF THE LAB!!!!! "

graysmoke

Glad you found the problem and thank you posting the solution.

ASE doc

The tiny VATS contact wires are attached to the rotating portion of the ignition cylinder so that they turn with the key. Not the best design. There is a 2" flexible section of the small wires that is intended to allow for this movement. Problem is, after many many cycles back and forth, the flexible section finally starts to break up. The last one I had in, the insulation had broken off a small area of both wires and they were shorting to each other.

It is super critical that the column be assembled correctly or theses wires won't last long at all.

Arctic White 91 RS

I appreciate the additional information.

This makes me worry about the two other cars with VATS. How long does it take for the wires to typically fail?

I have a 99 Trans Am with 136, xxx miles and 91 RS Convertible with 112, xxx miles.

Would be be wise to bypass the VATS on those cars before it fails?
I'm not convinced VATS offers much protection these days.

musicallymrm

[quote=Arctic White 91 RS;5842488]I appreciate the additional information.

This makes me worry about the two other cars with VATS. How long does it take for the wires to typically fail?

I have a 99 Trans Am with 136, xxx miles and 91 RS Convertible with 112, xxx miles.

Would be be wise to bypass the VATS on those cars before it fails?
I'm not convinced VATS offers much protection these days.[/quotej


It's obvious that VATS was a great idea in it's inception.....it just wasn't a reliable design. GM's 10 pin key design and VATS 2 (rc key) rendered VATS obsolete. I bypased mine and haven't looked back. I've had my car for 23 years.......

Bypassing the system isn't difficult but........it is tied into your cars cpu and regulated by a resistor built into your key. The resistanc value is set in the prom of your computer and looks for the matching value of the resistor key. T
he right way to bypass it is to purchase a resistor of the correct value(Radio Shack) and solder it in line. There is a VATS key/resistor value chart somewhere on the net..google it or if you have a spare key, solder a wire to each contact on the key and secure it somewhere under the dash. That is the most hassle free solution. VVATS system failure is a bitch and on a car with a lot of miles, it's just waiting to happen to you a very inoportune time......

rfoster23g

Get a long screwdriver out wit a good insulated handle and touch the two terminals closest to the block on your starter just see if it will crank that way you know if you are dealing with a starter issue or a electrical issue.