Ghettobird52

Hey all so ive been itching to get AWAY and OUT of california smog i.e 76-99 have sniffer test. So ive been in debate to sell the third gen and just get into a 2nd gen to get out of smog restrictions and just start up fresh. Ive put a little bit into the car already, mildly built 350 (obviously smog friendly cam), ebl flash with 2055 hookers into flowmaster catback (3" all the way). Im just wondering where will be my headlimit for tune/heads/cam work in the future until im out of luck because of smog restrictions. Should i just get into a 2nd gen to easily remove myself from this?

What are your guys opinion/input on the idea of moving from third gen into a 2nd gen?

Jersey89GTA

iTrader: (1)

Can you get historical tags/antique tags ?
In NJ (strict like CA w/pollution) ...
no inspections required with antique car tag. Car has to be 25 yrs old ...
I just tagged my 89 and 90 with antique tags. (QQ tags we call them here)

paulo57509

You'd be limited to a '70-'75 2nd Gen. I sometimes wish I still had my '74 sport coupe even if it was a 250 L6 with a TH350 (I prefer the flat rear window of pre-'75 models).

You can always buy a brand new Camaro. Lots of power from the factory. Of you mod, you'd be exempt from smog for 6 years. That's enough time for you to get tired of it. You'd still have to get it to pass smog starting the 7th year.

My friend has a 10 second '86 GN. He goes through the trouble of removing all the mods every other year for inspection. He's gotten quite fast at it; R&R the intake/turbo mods along with the exhaust system in an afternoon.

Antique? No way unless you want to wait until 2021 - 2031 to register it as such. Besides, the way I read it, there is no smog exemption for antique (39 years and older) or custom built vehicles anyway.

https://www.dmv.com/ca/california/cu...e-registration

I think it's easier to just pack up and move. There are a lot of other REAL problems with living in a one-party, liberal cesspool that is CA than smog inspections.

BTW, this monstrosity was registered and legal in CA when it was completed so it's not impossible to do:

http://www.superstreetonline.com/fea...0-lexus-gs300/

Ghettobird52

In all reality im not looking, or have the funds, to spend that kind of cash on a new car. In reality im looking for another 2nd car to continue/restart my project on. I have a dd so my F-body is my baby/weekend car. I know its possible to get a fast third gen but where is the limit here in CA?

Honestly those are the exact years im looking at! lol more specifically 74-75. LOL in my terms packing up and moving out of the state is ALOT more work then ditching the third gen and picking up a 2nd gen and restarting. Yeah im going to have a lot of work... AGAIN so was this car, it was fun i enjoyed every moment of it but im just wondering; Am i wasting time that im eventually going to hit a wall and be pissed i dumped XXX amount of money into the car.

LOL sorry i just reread your post you said "more problems then smog in liberal cesspool" LOL ok i get you on packing up and moving out. well hey buddy look whos talking your 30mins away from me! xD

paulo57509

Who really knows what limits you can push. The problem is there's way too much gray area with very little concrete "you can do this" or "this worked for me"; all with the YMMV disclaimer.

FWIW, I asked one of the guys that was involved with that GS300 build about what they went through to get the thing smogged. He told me they went to a referee station, the inspector looked under the hood and checked a few things and bought it off. He then told me that the state really doesn't scrutinize import cars that have had domestic engine swaps. It's the import guys that mod import engines that get the microscope treatment. Again, this is a YMMV type of story.

This kind of spells it out (see the Engine Mod section):

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engi...uidelines.html

I was out at McHenry Village yesterday morning.

Ghettobird52

Exactly so maybe just stop now and get into something that i have no restrictions? I had to get the firebird 'hot smogged' twice (4years) because i had offroad only headers on. Those days are long gone now as no one wants to even put their name on something like that. Ty for the info

Haha nice!! Im starting to notice this forum has more valley thirdgens then i thought!!!

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

The other option would be to swap over to an erod crate engine or do your own ls swap. Its not cheap but you would get a lot more smog legal power. I'm considering doing an LS swap or saving up for an erod kit. The erod kits are C.A.R.B approved.

Ghettobird52

Hmm not a bad a idea.... Im not going to lie, this car (88 tbi) is the oldest thing ive owned. So ive never owned a carb'd car kinda scared to get away from ECMs. Especially after being an owner of Rbob's Ebl Flash.

Im also very attached to the damn thing. She was my first car 8 years ago....

EDIT: Love seeing all the northern california members!!!

Ron U.S.M.C.

Honestly, I don't no if this will work.

When they preform a visual inspection in CA they are looking for "original" components all the way back to the end of the CAT or CAT's as it may be.

Its hard enough to get these guys to accept C.A.R.B. approved headers.....

let alone an entirely different engine with different displacement, etc.

When the car is actually inspected electronically it is looking for the original specs. provided by the original engine and nothing else.
CA is trying to get these cars off the road.
Sad but true.

As far as selling your car, I have seen many here come to regret it in the end.
But I can see where it would be kind of exciting starting a new project with practically no limitations.

Remember, my hands are tied pretty tight here in CA also. Sucks

paulo57509

This thread illustrates why these questions arise. There's no consistency with the inspection process. No one really can say with 100% certainty that this will pass, this will fail. I feel it depends on the person who is doing the actual inspection.

My car is not heavily modified (all the factory emissions equipment installed and functioning) but I've passed visual (and sniff) with the SLP 49-state headers installed. I have yet to be questioned or asked for a CARB sticker, letter....nothing. These headers have been on the car since 1989.

I think it helps to find an inspection station that's been under the same ownership and that you've been going to year after year. They know you and you know them. I think inspection stations with high turn over rates for ownership and inspection techs are the places to avoid.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If it makes you happier to own a 2nd gen, do that. Its really something that is up to the person.

antman89iroc

Pro's- as you mentioned the smog issues. The later model cars are more restrictive.
Ride, the 2nd gen cars ride really well when set up properly.
Handling, they don't handle as well stock but there are a ton of aftermarket suspension components. Not sure how that would affect ride but you could probably strike a nice compromise.
Brakes, same issues as handling but tons of aftermarket.
Rear suspension, this is a double edge sward in that it is leaf spring from the factory but you are not so limited in rear axle choices as you are with the 3rd gen.

Cons- cost. A good second gen is going up in price a lot. I sold my restored 72 SS/RS in the mid 90's for $6500 and it would probably bring triple that today, if not more. Considering it had a dealer installed 375/396 who knows.
Rear leaf springs, again, the aftermarket comes to the rescue.
Front suspension, not too different than the third gen but does need a lot of help. Both really need a rack.
Options, the earlier cars (exp pre 76) didn't generally have power windows, tilt, cruise, and even the premium models seats were adequate at best. Sure, all this can be added or you may find a quality, well optioned car. The problem is cost.

Honestly, I wish I had not sold my 72. One of the lowest production years and was a well optioned car. Probably one of the best looking body styles too. I would expect to pay ~$30k for it today.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

There are several things about second gens to consider.
They're heavier, slower, have a more flexible chassis, handle worse, have worse seats, and lack EFI among other traits. Well, they do have better room for a rat.

With regard to "headlimits", people get into trouble successfully modifying cars because they have no idea what moderation is. It is virtually Never about putting the biggest cam in, going with the biggest tire that fits, or anything else like that. It is about putting together a matched combination. Look at the seriously old combinations from the 90s that passed smog and put down 350hp. You can copy all kinds of existing combinations, add a wee bit extra cam to match newer heads that flow better and have a great combo. And call upon the people who do this stuff for a living to lead you to a successful engine combination. Speed talk is a decent place to read if you're capable of absorbing the wisdom.

CA smog isn't complicated. If everything equipment-wise is present for a same or newer vehicles,it should be a legal combo. Get really simple about it: can you swap pretty much everything for a 2002 in your car and would it make a great drivable combo, and pass CA smog with a mild few upgrades? Absolutely. There is a guy who posted a wagon build on tech who had a referee exception for a truck engine in an 80s car.

The worst part about the thirdgen engines is the lack of a CA legal intake that isn't a long runner style setup. There is a ton more potential with the LS platform and that is only going to continue in that direction.

Now if you want to put tires on that don't fit and jack up the rear to "fix" the problem, put a Holley on to kill mileage in order to escape the q-jet "problems," take the simple way out and have a car that sucks a little bit more than the 80s could manage, then a second gen works.

I will take freedom on where I live over freedom from smog and stay away from the floppy second gens. YMMV

M G Brewer

2nd gens look great, but thirdgens are getting way more desirable. If that's what reasoning you are looking for. If I were you, I would just get the one you like the best and roll with it. I have enjoyed my most recent 3rd gen Camaro that I haven't even owned for a year yet more than my '69 LS3 Camaro!

Ghettobird52

I love all the input/advice/opinions im getting. The main reason im thinking of doing this swap in F-bodies is because of CA smog. Yet as jmd states many have high output motors here in CA and are still passing smog.... I really have a connection with my car that might be to hard to sever. I'm also kinda of scared of what a carb would be like lol

M G Brewer

Best option over all is to get out of that horribly ran state...

Ghettobird52

lol i know right!

Ghettobird52

Welp guys i think im gonna keep the third gen.

Ron U.S.M.C.

MY87LT

iTrader: (2)

Everyone keeps saying to leave California, this and that because how restrictive we are with pollution causing elements. Hate to burst your bubble, but eventually, the entire country is going to be as bad as we are here in California with pollution control and inspection.

I myself get crap every time I go to get a smog check only because my SLP headers don't have a metal tag welded on them from the factory. Yet, I have the under hood decal from SLP stating they are legal.

Ghettobird52

I just truthfully cant see myself giving this car up.... Too much money, blood and sweat invested!!!

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Er , not so fast there , MY87LT ! The people's republic of commiefornia draconian laws are the reaction to the terrible smog problem that was only partially automobile caused . I highly doubt that states without a pervasive smog problem will be enacting such stringent regulation any time soon . I live in one of the most regulation happy states next to California (Taxachusetts) and anything before OBD2 doesn't get any sort of emissions or "originality" check whatsoever . I could drive my third gen in to any gas station that does inspections with a goddamn Mack truck engine hanging outta the hood and as long as my lights and horn work and the tires ain't bald and it ain't too loud I'm good to go . No state is gonna jump at enacting "feel good" legislation for a problem that for the most part doesn't rile the local public and besides , with all the taxes the state will rake in from the sale of now legal pot here , they'll be too preoccupied with rolling around in their bushels of money to be bothered with the ever dwindling number of +30 year cars and enacting laws saying which brand of sparkplug ya gotta use .

Yep , with ANY old car you VERY quickly reach the point of no return WRT the mad $$$$ you've spent on it . That's why it's always best to make tripple damn sure before dime one gets spent that this car is truly "the one" . I hear all the sappy , vapid , "I love my Subaru" commercials and wanna puke ! , sure , there's a lot to love about a 4cyl plastic econobox to some folks I guess , but to me the ones who really DO love their cars are the fools like us who will blow 5 times what the car is actually worth to make it perfect , THAT'S love that no Subaru is ever gonna match ! Ever see anyone spend $20 grand to fix a $5 grand Subaru like I've seen plenty do with third gens ?

MY87LT

iTrader: (2)

Here's some information on states and their smog rules. Just for information...Not on a soap box here.

http://traffic.findlaw.com/drivers-l...d-testing.html

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

That is a great link , Thank You MY87LT .

Here in Taxachusetts , if your OBD2 , your OBD2 port gets plugged into the computer during the inspection and that is all that's needed because the OBD2 will tell the computer all it needs to know about how the car is running . But pre OBD2 cars , like ours , get only a safety equipment check with no emissions check whatsoever . There is no "tailpipe test" or anything like that , in fact the hood doesn't even get lifted because it's truly lights & horn , tires and exhaust (can't be too loud) , and if your windshield ain't cracked your on your way with your new inspection sticker . They are supposed to , but seldom do , lift the front end and wiggle the balljoints & such , but on a really nice condition car that is obviously well maintained it's seldom done . There are no plans or propositions here to change anything because as years go by there are less and less pre OBD2 cars on the road and so by statistic are not worth targeting with new smog legislation .

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

When I lived in the Chicago area it was a similar situation. No car before OBD2 got inspected, period. The rest of Illinois didn't even have inspections. I'm in Arizona now and my area has no inspections. Phoenix area does but I'm not sure what they entail.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Have you considered getting out of the run of the mill cars (like ours) all together? In California, Nevada and Arizona with such beautiful weather we have a lot of options. Look into buying a kit car be it one someone built and lost interest or you build. Older roadsters and other hardtops that weigh half what a thirdgen does. Lots of possibilities. If I have to part with my Camaro I will go kit car or build from scratch like a Locost or Midlana.

basiccamaro

I have talked a lot about 2nd gens here on this forum. The truth is that I really do like 3rd gens. I love their looks and handling. And I like all Camaros, but not as much the 4th gens and the latest offerings. I have to admit the newer power is cool. But I can't really work on it, or even see too much of it when looking under the hood for that matter!
But the 2nd gens do have some advantages. If the engine is a good 350, and not a 305, that's the first advantage. I don't like the way the front welded sub frame tails turn in toward the transmission, ruining an easy path for headers and pipes. Ditto with the torque arm getting in the way. At least it is welded together and not just bolted to the firewall and floorboard.
The rear end housing with the torque arm mount, and the front tranny mount is pretty bogus in my opinion. With the panhard bar and panhard bar brace, it is so much harder to run the exhaust past the rear end. And with the spare tire well, you have offset things to get the exhaust tips even, or you have to make the centerlines closer together.
On a 2nd gen, you really do need to have sub frame connectors. But this is also an advantage on 3rd gens as well. The leaf springs in the rear are no better than the 3rd gen torque arm set up. But there are tricks that can be done with leaf springs that can make them very effective. It does take some knowledge and modification, but I really like a proper leaf spring set up. I learned a lot about them when I ran dirt track car.
In my opinion, a 2nd gen front frame stub can be significantly better than the 3rd gen strut set up. Again, it takes effort and knowledge, but I think they work better and are much better for adjustability too.
In short, both of them require a lot of work to make them work well.

MY87LT

iTrader: (2)

In 1980, we were only given the option of a 305 in both the Corvette and Z28 for California. Luckily, in 1981, we got back the 350. Second gen's I find cool are the ones without the rear spoiler. There was even a rear spoiler delete option for the Z28. Possibly the 1985 California IROC edition took its cue from that obscure option.

cosmick

Would i trade my never-crashed, rust-free, factory-V8 '86 Camaro hardtop for a second-gen? Probably. Third gens are lighter, and better performers, but still easier to find, and cheaper, and harder to improve. Especially if you have to worry about emissions and can't afford an LSx swap.
The second-gens are better cruisers, better touring cars for road trips, with a more interesting dash, until 79, and a more interesting view over the hood.
1970.5 had forged spindles that allowed wider front wheels, but couldn't be big-braked. 1971 changed that, and brought the decent 8.5" 10-bolt axle, albeit in the 1970.5 width, which never got corrected. So the second-gen had serious problems right from '71.
'74 was the best year, benefitting from the big ugly bumpers, stll suffering the tiny but stylish rear window, but being the last year of no catalytic converter. So while everyone else wants a 67-73, I want a 74. I have had a 71, several '75-'77s, 3 '78s, 3 '79s, and I wish I could have any one of them back. I have also had 3 of the '79-'81 Firebirds. They were more beautiful outside, but less interesting from behind the wheel.
I know where there is an '81 with a V6 and a 3 speed manual, stock, for $3K, but '81 means computer-controlled QJ required by law, if not a TPI, LT1, or LSx swap. And even if it was an '80, and even though it is a factory stick-shift, it isn't worth $3k. I would go $1k for it. That's all its worth.
You gotta beware of subframe rust, right where they begin to curve up to go over the rear axle. All of them suffer it, and this one is no exception.
I'd probably go $3k for a running '74, but not an '81.
Lastly, dunno how you define handling, but if you don't use numbers or scientific tests, second gens are cheap and easy to make them out-handle anything else on a twisty canyon road. They bring the joy.