99Hawk120

I'll look at the rest when I get more time, but the ticking was almost 100% likely your lifters.

wasp

red 91 bird.............you mean you havent seen me flying thru barclay heights ? lol

Christos

UPDATE:

I talked to the owner of the business today. He said they checked the compression, and also gave it a road test. I said that wasn't good enough, and sighted that the Chevy dealership said the only way to tell if there has been wear on the engine, is to tear it down, and check all of the parts. He refused to contact the Chevy dealership.

They refused to do any more.

I called up the california BAR (Bureau Automotive Repair) and got the information on how to file a complaint about this business.

I haven't done it yet though. I drove to the lube shop, and asked to talk directly to the owner, and after waiting 10 mins, he showed up. He said he "didn't have time" to talk to me, he was understaffed and overworked. I setup an appointment to talk to him tomorrow at 11 AM. I am going to get him to call the manager over at the Chevy dealer repair shop from there, and get that mechanic to say over the phone what needs to be done.

Oh, and over the phone, the owner said that my car did have oil in it, it had 'some'. I disagreed in our face-to-face meeting. I was right there. He seemed to be almost ignoring me as i talked.

I don't know what to do until tomorrow, Ill have to wait until then i guess. Please post more info if you got any please!

grafx

That's the type of arrogant attitude I can't stand, at least you seem to be handling it with a calm attitude, if it were me I don't think I would have been able to contain my anger. It's just a good thing you showed up when you did, otherwise you would probably be driving it and like 2 weeks later the engine seizes or something, and your left with nothing. Good luck, hope the assh*les don't get away with it.

DartByU

That kind of thing happens alot, but 99% of the time the customer does not find out about it, I used to work at a GOODYEAR service center and at least once a month someone would forget to put oil in the engine after it came off the lift, they would figure out there mistake when it started knocking while they were parking it outside then they would drive it back inside and fill it up

Blueiroc

Well I have to agree w/99hawk because I have experienced this situation firsthand, I have an 87 Iroc L98 TPI and had to change the intake gaskets and unbeknownst to me failed to install the distributor ALL the way in, when I started the motor after all was together I had ZERO oil pressure, I had oil in the motor bit without the distributor in all the way the pump was not pumping, all in all it took me a few hours to figure the problem out and my car never stalled or even stumbled for that matter, ran perfectly with ZERO oil pressure, no switch shut it off when I ran it, and i ran the motor for at least 5 minutes each time I started it, so much for the low oil pressure shutoff?

Brian

Blueiroc

ttt

chooch-88formula

all i can say is "BRING A TAPE RECORDER".... get the manager saying that there was no oil in it and that they drove the car in that condition..... i did this before when a truck driver decided to run over the front of my car and he was trying to get out of it....

Engineboy

Three little letters.... B A R

These guys are brutal, I've seen shops shut down and signs on the front door reading.."We are temporary closed as ordered by the BAR due to the fact we were charging customers for work not performed."

They can come in, shut you down, and make you post for all your customers to see why you are shut down.

It doesn't do your business any good with signs like that.

I doubt any real damage was done, it all depends on how bad the engines condition was before.

Thundering Z03

I had something similar to that happen to me once. It was MY word against THEIRS. I'm still paying for it. I hope yours turns out better than mine. Good luck!!

SSC

A couple hundred yards with no oil isnt going to kill an engine unless the thing is totally dry (new engine).
There was probably no damage caused and your being paranoid, but im sure I would be also.

Like 5,7 said this is why shops have insurance.




SSC


Forgot to say, If any damage occured a good indication without tearing it down would be large amounts of blue smoke, or blue smoke if there wasent any before.

Dr. Pepper

By "some" he means what is clinging to the sides of the oil pan and in the bearings and lifters and so forth. So it is true the engine wasn't dry. This would have provided lubrication long enough for them to have checked the pressure gauge and shut the engine down. Not to drive it around the parking lot. They may have prefilled the filter (supposed to) but this oil would have to be pushed out by the oil pump to go anywhere. With the pick-up hanging dry very poor chance of that. You would need at least a quart in the oil pan after the filter was filled and the gallies were filled to get pressure.

SMasterson

Here's an off topic reply that's none of my business anyway, but here goes.

The ECM turns on the fuel pump relay for 2 seconds when the ignition is turned on. That makes sure the fuel rails have pressure. Then, with the engine running, (actually just cranking creates enough pressure) the oil pressure switch closes and runs the fuel pump. Since the ECM no longer has the fuel pump relay energized, if the oil pressure switch opens, the fuel pump stops and so will the engine.

That's why some people hear the fuel pump run on for a bit after they shut the key off. The pressure has to bleed down before it will stop running.

Now, that's how it works! Don't believe me, unplug the oil pressure switch and try to go somewhere.

CORRECTION! THE ABOVE IS NOT NOT NOT how it works.
Man, I don't mind being wrong but. . . I like being correct so. . .

Today I finally had time to check this out.
According to Mitchell On Demand concerning the fuel pump, (and it is a big deal although not exactly on topic because I really don't want to leave someone with the WRONG information and this guy needed to know exactly how the circuit actually worked for his case about his car running without oil

According to Mitchell On Demand:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CODE 54: FUEL PUMP VOLT LOW

The ECM monitors fuel pump pressure switch circuit voltage for fuel system adjustments. This signal is also used to store a trouble code if the fuel pump relay is defective or fuel pump voltage is lost while the engine is running. There should be about 12 volts on circuit No. 120 for 2 seconds after the ignition is turned on, or ANY TIME REFERENCE PULSES ARE BEING RECEIVED BY THE ECM.

Code 54 will set if the voltage on circuit 120 is less than 2 volts for 1.5 seconds since the last reference pulse is cycles off. However, if the voltage detected is less than 2 volts with the engine running, the light will only remain on while the condition exists. If no fault is found, see INTERMITTENTS is H- TESTS W/O CODES article.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've own two thirdgens, both 85's and never had any reason to trouble shoot these circuits. I have a retro-fit '88 GTA and electronics, ECM, etc, (now updated to SD). Several months ago when I would turn sharp corners it would die. I found the connector pulling tight on the oil pressure switch above the oil filter and fixed it. Haven't had a problem since. So... somewhere in my retro-fit, (and I do get the 2 second relay run but I don't get voltage after it's running), I have a problem.

The engine runs perfect and scanning is normal. Been tuning PROMs since December and all the data is normal. I did notice and post the question a while back, before I converted to 730 SD why when I unplugged the tan/black wire for ESC my engine died. I think I'm on to something about that now! Glad I kept up with the thread.

Sorry for the mis-information!!!

Now I can sleep at night again!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Well, I don't have the Oil Pressure/Fuel Pump switch on my car and the relay stays enrgized the entire time I am driving.
Please Explain that one if the ECM only runs the relay for 2 seconds and the switch is supposed to take over.

I have an 86 T/A with 91 SD Electronics.

That oil pressure switch is there to keep the car running if the fuel pump relay dies. Car will start up with bad relay when you crank it over and the switch sees 4psi of oil pressure.
My friends 87 GTA has a bad fuel pump relay and it starts up after a few seconds of cranking.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Oh, I do have the connector for the Oil Pressure switch, but I don't have any place to connect it to, so it sits near my MSD box on the firewall.

Funny how people argue and debate over silly things

On my modded harness, the OPFP Switch was mislabeled, didn't know what the heck it was for.

99Hawk120

It is not a silly thing. If the ECM actually energizes the relay all the time, then people who are counting on that oil pressure switch to save them are counting on a safety feature that's not there! Plus, I'm tired of seeing this question unresolved.

I challenge ONE person, anyone, to prove that the oil pressure switch is a safety feature on these cars. So far there are two first-hand accounts in this thread that say it is not.

Beefy89

I'd still call Perry Mason,and take him to the overworked little lubeman's meeting.

camaro6spd

I will go home and try the above "experiment" I will be back around 4 with my results.

jdrobley

Well, I actually did get off my but and try it. After unpluging the 3 pin connector by the oil filter (I have a 90 RS.), I preceeded to start my car and let it run for 5 min. It never stalled, studdered or anything. The only sign that it was unplugged was that my oil pressure was pegged. So it would appear that I am wrong about no oil pressure turning off your fuel pump off. This would imply that Christos's engine did sieze up. The clicking when the guy was trying to start it would have been the starter trying to turn a motor over that was locked up. The only reason they seam to have gotten his car to start is the extra amperage and time allowing the bearings to cool and contract, thus restoring clearence. Based on this, I would say his engine needs bearings, rings, turned crank, and a hone job; basicaly a complete rebuild. He should verify like I did just to be certain.

All I can say about the fuel pressure switch now is that it must be there for the limp home mode, when the computer, relay, or parts of the ign. system fails, so the car can still be driven home.

Hats off to 99Hawk for the challenge and being right.

Jess

99Hawk120

jd,

I'm glad to see that you tried unplugging the sensor. The important thing is to find the truth. Who's right and who's wrong is irrelevant.

Ordinarily I wouldn't push hard for solving an issue as apparently trivial as this, but the circumstances of this particular incident made it decidely "non-trivial".

If the oil pressure switch had functioned as you supposed, then it would have been possible for lack of oil pressure to have stalled the car. I am not arguing with you that that is how GM should have designed it, by the way! It might have saved Christos several thousand dollars in what is certainly to be an expensive repair. But that's neither here nor there. If wishes were fishes, well, you know the rest.

It's unfortunate, but I have to come to the conclusion that something caused that motor to stall. Given the following:

1) There is no safeguard which shuts off the fuel pump in the case of no oil pressure
2) The fuel pump relay must certainly have been functioning or the car would never have started at all (since there was no oil pressure to close the switch)
3) The ECM is incapable of sensing oil pressure so could not have shut off the injectors in a no oil pressure situation.

I can safely conclude then that the car did not stall from lack of fuel. Unfortunately, as you said, that makes it likely that there was serious and irreversible damage to the bottom end. From the amount of time it sounds like the motor was running, it wouldn't surprise me if it is now literally a "ticking time bomb".

I suggest bringing them a copy of the wiring diagram I posted earlier. Make certain that you stress that the oil pressure switch is in parallel with the fuel pump relay and does not act as a safety switch, as verified by the diagram and tested on at least three cars.

If they still will not listen to you, I'm afraid you have two options at that point--you can get a lawyer, or you can bring the car back to them in a few days after the motor fails "under mysterious circumstances".

Either way, it's a ****ty situation to be with, and I would be taking my pound of flesh out of their sorry hides if they refused to replace the motor. The bottom line is that you dropped off your car in perfectly working condition and they returned it to you with a damaged motor. More importantly, ruin their name by word of mouth. Have an independent shop tear down your motor and document what they find. Make certain that you spread the results all over everywhere. Hell, I'd stand outside the store and picket until they had me removed for tresspassing. And don't listen to them if they threaten to sue you for libel and/or slander--it's not either if you can prove it's true.

Best of luck to you in getting this straightened out.

In the meantime, I'm wondering if there might be a way to adapt the stock sensors so that the motor will shut off if a lack of oil pressure is detected. So far I have not been able to come up with a circuit that will preserve the 2-second "key on" fuel prime. I have figured out an easy way to do it if you don't mind a little bit of extra cranking, however (probably on the first start of the day only).

grafx

I did something like that. I changed the pressure sen. and forgot to reconnect it, I started my car up and noticed I had no oil pressure, I left it running after I realized I forgot to connect the harness but it never died.

TomP

I have a 2.8 MPFI V6, and the fuel pump wiring is exactly the same for TPI. Yes, that oil pressure switch is an "oil pressure safety switch", designed to keep your motor running in case the fuel pump relay dies.

I goofed when I installed my mechanical gauges, and pulled the oil pressure safety switch instead of the idiot light switch. I drove, oh, I guess a year or two before bothering to fix it.

I had a similar experience at Maaco... well, not quite, but you'll see what I mean! I went there, and the guy is schmoozing me up, and I'm doing the same, telling him how I'm bringing him a completely prepped and bodywork'd car, and how if the job comes out good, I'll tell everyone where I had it painted, etc etc. He responds by telling me they'll take good care of it, it'll look great, etc, etc. Well, I had used spray-can primers- which aren't waterproof. After a month of keeping the car in the garage at night so it wouldn't rust, the first night it spent in Maaco's lot, it rained- no, it POURED. I went down the next day- and they left my car outside. It had many little water dots all over the primer.

I told the guy- and he went from the nicest guy in the world to a jackass. He was brushing me off, and when I kept following AFTER him, he told one of the guys to sand it. The guy asked why, and he said "dim wit used spray cans", pointed to the bubbles (which was water absorbed into the primer), went into the building (as I followed), went into his office, and shut the door. He acted as though he had no time for me... like I was suddenly an inconveinance. 49.4% of me wanted to drive the car home and screw the paint job- but I had waited 3 years for it.

If it was a national chain, see if you can call someone- or write someone a letter- and the higher the person is, the better. I've heard of engines running for a while without oil and being fine (just like those Slick-50 commercials!), so the damage might not be too bad. If nothing good comes out of this for you, at least you can boycott that shop like crazy- signs at the local college will work well!

Oh- and new rear calipers? Geez, give me a break. You need those calipers rebuilt with the recall parts- do a search on the suspension/chassis/brake forum for rear disc recall- and read this message by me: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=78725 Don't you dare go back to them for rear brakes!

Christos

Thanks for all of this help guys! I had no idea the responses would be so many and detailed!

You all rock!

UPDATE:

Talked to the business owner. He claimes my car wasn't run without oil, he said it was run, "4 quarts low". I asked that the mechanic who worked on my car at the time and who was also a witness also be brought into the discussion, he refused. I also requested that the manager be brought into the situation, who was also a witness, and he refused that too.

The owner pointed out my oil leaks aroudn the engine (i have many, but i burn off about a quart every 3,000 miles. I haven't ever seen a drop on the floor) and started questioning me about why i haven't "had that taken care of", etc etc. Trying to question me. I countered with the fact that I always check the level of the oil, and i haven't ever run it WITHOUT oil, like their shop did right in front of me.

The owner claimed again that it was run with just 4 quarts low.

I then broke off discussing this with him, and talked to the manager, who was a witness to the whole thing. He got the mechanic for me, while the owner was in the back of the shop. I talked to the mechanic, and asked him, "How much oil did you add to my engine". He replied, "4 quarts over there (pointed to where he added 4 quarts in front of me) and then i drove it back here and added another quart".

I asked, "what did the dipstick read after you did this?" and he replied, "Full".

I restated the question, "So you added a total of 5 quarts of oil to my engine, and the dipstick read exactly full?" and he replied, "yes".

I wrote this quote down on some paper i brought with me, and was trying to get him to sign his own quote, when the owner caught me, and got in my face, and said, "Leave here NOW, right NOW" over and over. I complied.

They refuse to do anything I want done. It looks like they are going to continue to fight me as hard as they can, so it looks like i might have to take this to small claims court. That might take months! Only a $5,000 maximum payout though.

I better call a few places, my chevy dealership wanted $4,929.90 for a 305 "LB9" longblock, and installation total, which included tax, so this might be do-able if i do have to take it to court.

Thanks for the continued intrest guys, ill keep you posted as I go through this.

poncho9789

Contact a lawyer (friend or friend of a friend that doesn't mind giving you advice) and make up signs (bright yellow w/ large black print) to put up all over town explaining the problems you had with the shop. Start the ball rolling on the small calims cort. Get a statement from the local gm service manager explaining what a problem this is and what they would do if the same thing happened in their shop and saying what kind of dammage could have been done to the engine. No judge in the country is stupid enought to believe that running a engine without oil is good for it.

If you really want to make the owner wet his pants take the sign by his place and tape them up all arround the shop and the gas stations,resturants, and anywere you can think of. If you let him know you are going to do this you might be able to get some results or you will make him pissed off enough to make an *** out of himself in court.


On a side note the local mitisubuti (spelling???) dealership had sold a lemmon car to a guy and in texas (don't know about anywere else) if you have a car in the shop 3or more times in one year for different problems then you can claim the car as a lemmon and the dealership has to take it back. The dealership didn't want to take the car back and told the guy that he was out of luck on this one.. well they took the car back 2 weeks later after he went arround town putting up signs and set the car on the side of the road right in front of the dealership and put a poster on it that said "harratge sold me this lemmon" well the car wasn't far enough off the road (16') for the dealership to claim it was on their property and couldn't have it towed. When he wasn't working he was out in front of the dealership handing out the signs to every customer that he could get to take a copy of the law and his experance as they drove into the dealership. Needless to say they were very imbariced about the whole thing and took the car back but the dammage was done and the dealership didnt' do very well for a couple of years after that because of the reputation they had developed from that one little guy that had the ***** to stand up to them.

Good luck.

Dr. Pepper

Sorry to say it, but your only routes now are legal ones. His statement that it took 5 quarts to bring the dip stick to full is a rail road stake in the old pine box. Depending on what manual you look at the refill capacity is listed as about 4-4.5 quarts plus the filter. The stock filter for that car is under 1/2 quart. They are getting real pushy because they are trying to make it easier for you to just eat the engine than deal with them. It isn't going to be an easy battle, the easiest path just up and died. I have a small and easy to build circuit that will do as everyone wants, series the oil sender with the fuel pump relay. It also allows the pump to build pressure when the key is first turned on. I'll have to get around to drawing it so people can play with it.

Ed Maher

Wait, so the manager said it was '4 quarts low' and THEN the mechanic said it had '4 quarts'

Well your original story said that they drove down the road w/ none until it died. Then they added some. And you said they gave you some sheet that explained the situation...i hope you still have that. Fact is they drove your car down the street w/ no oil, until it seized (they can't prove otherwise unless they tear down, which is a reasonable demand at the least) and then you observed them add 5 quarts too it. So you also know for a fact that it really had no oil and that it was making very bad noises. Thus wanting at the minimum a teardown is completely necessary over their screw-up. So they might as well eat it and just buy and engine straight up. And they do have insurance. Don't let the fu<x>ck you.

dacuma

Christos
hey you should see if you can call a news station, I know we have one down here its Channel 8 and they have a Consumer Lawyer, its 8 on your side. Well anyway their aways looking for a good story on business that shaft people. I saw a story where some poor old guy had a new Dodge Van that was still under warrenty, The paint was like washing off. To make a long story short the service manger at Dodge said "Too bad buddy were not going to repaint it because the elements caused it" Well he called the Consumer Lawyer at Channel 8, and then all of the sudden they changed thier tune. Look bottom line is their not going to do anything for you, If you don't get a Lawyer. Call the news stations cause they do it for free. Or if they won't do it check in the yellow pages and see if you can get one of those lawyer where you don't pay unless they win, Oh very important file you claim with the BBB or BAR, or heck with both. Look bottom line is that they owe you a new engine, and a rent a car while it's getting fixed.That's the reason they got insurance.Get the ball rolling with a letter to the BBB and BAR, Trust me things start to get done when you send things in writing. Man I'm all fired up cause their trying screw you. If I were you I would take a day off of work and start writing letters, making calls and contacting everyone I could think of.

TomP

Hey, yeah, we have that in NJ, too. I think it's called "Channel 7 on your side"?

If I were you, I'd be fuming. You're doing it right though; stay calm, and keep everything written down. Undoubtedly, if this does make it to court, these guys haven't a single clue of what they've said/done/haven't said already. Maybe if you promise that local dealership that they can have "the job" if you win, they might come in and be a witness as to the harm of an engine running without oil. There might even be "public" cases that you can review somewhere that mimic your exact situation. SOmething like "John Doe vs WeDoAHalfAssedLubeJob"...

And undoubtedly, any judge has heard the stories about these oil change lube-it-all places. A lady at work went to one, and they forgot to put her fill cap back on. She came back to work after getting it done during lunch, and asked me to see if they spilled oil on the engine, because it stunk. Oil was all over the valve cover. An ex-girlfriend said they changed the oil & filter, and the filter "blew apart" on her, and caused engine damage. I guess they used too small of a filter? Or a bad filter? I don't know how that one happened. But I did see the missing oil cap.

Dr. Pepper

First circuit. This one activates when the oil pressure activates the sender. If the sender deactivates the fuel pump relay is turned off. The circuit leaves the relay on when the ignition is first turned on. The down side, if a monkey starts the engine with no oil so pressure is never built the circuit never activates. So it will save the engine from a pressure loss but it won't do anything about a never had pressure. That is where the 2nd circuit comes in. It is slightly more complex but either should be easy for a novice to build.

Dr. Pepper

Dropped file for some reason.

Dr. Pepper

2nd design. This one uses the starter to engage the circuit. That way the fuel pump is active up until the starter is engaged. Once engaged there are only two ways to turn the fuel pump on. Either build oil pressure or shut the engine off and turn the key back to the on position, not the start position.

Christos

I was thinking about the news actually. Not sure if we have something like that here though.

To tell you the truth, im a pretty quiet guy, i normally don't like to confront anyone about anything, so this is exceptionally lame for me to have to deal with this. My normal practice it to just blow it off.

This is my car though, my baby, brought with me off the rock to the mainland (I flew it off of hawaii to make the move with me). Can't let this pass.

Yes, i have already filed a complaint through the california BAR, and also the BBB about this yesterday. BAR claims 10 days before i can check on the status of my claim, and the BBB takes 3 weeks. So im going to be stuck with this for a while.

I was quoted a bit under 5K for a replacement longblock, including installation from the closest chevy dealership. I asked about a rebuild, and the mechanic laughed, and said, "Something like 50 hours of labor, i think it will be about 4500 for labor alone".

Im going to have to take MORE time off work it looks like so i can kick it to a few dealership shops, and have estimates written out for both rebuilds (if they do that) and new engine assmb.

I also wrote a letter i just sent to the lube shop via registered mail. It has my version of the story, and also what i would like done for a solution. Hopefully they read it very soon, ill know when they get it because of the registered mail recipt thingie, so thats cool.

If you guys want to see the letter, i can copy it here. it's about 4 pages though, and I would omit the names i used just because... well, it wouldn't be cool to put up there names i don't think. It talks about what happened so far. I haven't mentioned thirgen (besides to the manager a few times while the incident happened) and i know i need phonenumbers of mechanics who are in the area who can fix things up for me, so if a judge needs to call one to verify prices, he can.

I wrote everything i could remember. Funny, when i was talkign to the owner yesterday, he kept showing me a small leak a my front seal. It took me this long to realise he was trying to say to me, "we didn't drain your oil, all of your oil leaked out before you dropped your car off here". Hah! i remember the two mechanics mentioning another mechanic, who was seen working on my car earlier. X said to Y. "Who was working on the car" Y replies, "so-and-so", X then says, "What did you see him do?" Y replies, "Saw him draining the pan, but that's it". X then leaned over to inspect my oil filter. X exclaims, "Yeah, he didn't even replace the filter, that isn't our brand".

So they can't try and pull that over me. I think it's funny how the owner is misquoting his mechanics, and when ive gone to the mechanics after this, they have told me exactily what happened, which is exactily how i saw it.

Thanks for all the posts so far guys, this is such a pain in the a§§ for me. My rent is going up by about 160 bucks, and i was planning on moving out of state, but this puts that on hold, so that isn't good either. Bah, hopefully this can be setteled without going to court over it. What a b!tch.

Greg '85 T/A

No wonder I change my own oil! Many years ago, the oil pump went out in my '73 Grand Am. I drove it home 5 miles with no oil pressure (got yelled at by my dad for doing so)
Another time, I started my car up on a very, very cold winter morning to warm it up (same car). I was shocked 5 minutes later to find that the oil filter had blown out and leaked oil all over the driveway. Still no damage. Anyway, I drove it another 4 years and never had a problem with the engine (120k when sold it).

Not saying that these idiots who worked on you car shouldn't be responsible, but an engine can survive w/no oil for a short time. I'll bet this happens all the time and no one catches them. Problem is, some could see this like they would suing for the likelihood of cancer if someone blows smoke in your face.



Good luck -

Keep us up to date. This is better than a soap opera

F-BIRD'88

You should check around on that rebuild pricing.
I think you should be able to totaly rebuild your motor or a 350 for $1500 to $2500 tops (quality job with a good warranty). And install it for $500 /700.
You 'd probabily end up with a better motor too.
You are much more likely to get a settlement in your favour
if you keep the price within reason. Otherwise you just may deserve to get the runaround from this shop.

wasp

man this story is a dan shame, i hope you do your own oil from now on..........here in ny we have people that would go there and come out with a check.....this is also another option

rezinn

I noticed that you live in Aliso Viejo, I'm pretty close in Lake Forest. Where did this happen?

Vader

Christos,

I've been watching this for a couple of days now, just biting my tongue.

You are doing the right thing. Remain patient - you have the upper hand.

My opinion is that you should be able to close this chapter with a new engine. However, since your engine had 100,000 miles and admittedly had some oil leaks, you will probably end up paying for a part of the replacement engine on a pro rata basis. Since you should realistically expect your engine to last at least 150,000 miles without major repairs, you may end up paying for a proportion of the replacement parts at that ratio. However, all repair labor should be billed to the oil change shop due to their negelegence. Also, the time you have spent to pursue this matter, and the loss of use of your vehicle (including the cost of rental or temporary transportation) should be compensated by the oil change shop. Don't take my word for it, or that of anyone else on some internet site. Talk to a lawyer or your local legal aid society. They'll often provide basic legal advice in cases like this at no cost. (Never mind how or why the attorneys doing this are compelled to do so.)

My non-professional advice would be to NOT sign anything further. Retain all correspondence and reciepts in a safe place. Write a text of your recollection of the conversation you had with the shop manager, owner, and technicians as all of this transpired. This may sound frivilous, but it may be an important tool in helping you to remember exactly what was done, what was said, and what you observed when you picked up your vehicle. All subsequent conversations with the shop manager and owner, including the Chevrolet dealer service department, should also be documented. Since most of the text is already posted here, it would be a simple cut-and-paste to a word processor dodcument, then you can fill in details, dates, times, etc. as necessary.

I would almost guaranty that an attorney would advise the same - but again, don't take my word for it. Log all the time you spend in documenting this, talking to the shop, researching your options, whatever. You should be compensated for all of this "lost" time as well. By the time all of your personal losses are added up, from the lost time, to the replacement transportation, to any fees you encounter, you should realistically end up paying nothing for your new 350 replacement shortblock - installed.

Just my opinion.

Vader

Christos,

Since no one else has posted any definitive information on the subject, I'll relate my experience.

My '86 TPI has the 1227165 ECM, with the AUM 8291 factory EPROM (factory TSB upgrade). With KOEO, the pump relay gets energized for two seconds to prime the fuel rails. The voltage will then drop indefineitely until the ECM gets reference pulses from the distributor pickup coil/HEI amplifier module. Unplugging the oil pressure switch (the one that is a **** to access, right down next to the distributor with the huge friggin' connector and double-eneded safety clasp cover, after moving all the vacuum hoses and wire harnesses ) does nothing to the pump relay as long as there are distributor reference pulses. The pump relay remains energized and closed until the ignition is turned off. Or at least that's what happend when I checked it 15 minutes ago.

Your ECM/PROM may be different, but I doubt it.

As a result of my testing, I can state positively that if the same thing happened to MY car, the pump relay would have remained energized and the engine would probably have run until internal friction had locked it up. After having been allowed to sit and cool for ten minutes, with the addition of engine oil, plus the extra power to the starter from jumping it, it may have broken loose and started to run. The fact that the starter just locked into the flywheel and wouldn't crank the engine means is was probably locked from internal friction.

I would suggest getting an sample of the engine oil and having it analyzed for free metals. DO NOT drain the engine oil, but remove the oil filter and pour the contents into a clean glass jar. Replace the filter and DO NOT add any more oil, since it could dilute the level of free metals in the oil. Short of a tear-down, this may be your best indication of engine damage. Since th oil that was supposedly in the engine was clean and new, there should have been no accumulated contaminants in the oil except what was generated by their operation of the car for 150'.

Do not allow anyone else to touch the car unless you are so advised by your attorney. If the engine oil is drained, you will have lost all of your evidence.

Again, just my opinions.

Christos

Thank you for the input Vader!

I cannot really afford this. I just dropped in a new transmission a week before this all went down. I am hardly in a situation where I can pay X amount of money to have my car towed to my house, and/or spend money for a hot oil check, or what not.

They have replaced my filter from what I know now.

Ugh, this is such a pain, BAR is going to try and mediate between us. Ill post how it goes. I already have a 1/2" thick pile of paperwork. Hopefully this will reach 1 1/2 to 2" by the time this is taken to court.

8Mike9

Ya know, I've been trying to tell this to people for years to disspell the "oil pressure safety switch" myth.

The oil pressure switch is only there to provide voltage to the pump in case the relay or the ECM fails.

Now will they listen? No, probably not

99Hawk120

Regarding the oil pressure "safety switch"...

First off, up until several weeks ago, I thought it was common knowledge that the safety switch was merely a backup to the fuel pressure relay from what several people had told me and from what I'd read in the various Helms manuals and service books that I have access to.

When this topic came up, I read the section where the quik-lube place told Christos it had stopped running because of the "safety switch" and immediately thought, "what rubbish!" and posted basically to that effect.

When several people including jdrobley, called me on it, I went researching back through both my wiring diagrams/circuit descriptions and back through the archives. At some point I ran across some posts from members of this board (whose information is generally very good) that the switch did in fact function as a safety switch. In fact, jdrobley came up with a VERY reasonable way that it could function as a safety switch even the way it was "wired" from the factory.

It was at this point I figured nothing would be solved until several people went out to their cars and TESTED the circuit in real life.

I do want to thank everyone who put aside their preconceived notions on how the circuit SHOULD work and tested to see how it actually DOES work. Had I access to a car wired this way from the factory (my 84 certainly was not set up that way, and still isn't even though it now has an electric pump), I would also have tested it.

Ordinarily, as I said, I wouldn't make such a big deal about such a minor issue, but in this case (which will end up going to court), being able to prove that there is NO switch which will shut down a motor with no oil may prove CRUCIAL to Christos getting his motor replaced.

What's ironic, is that if the fuel pump relay is dead, the circuit actually WILL kill the motor if the oil pressure switch opens (since it's the only power source for the pump at that point). Something is wrong with a circuit design that makes the motor SAFER if part of it is broken. I'd highly urge anyone with the necessary skills to implement one of the earlier posted wiring diagrams to set the oil pressure switch up as a safety device. Yes, you'll lose the ability to start the car with a bad fuel pump relay, but better a $50 tow bill than a seized motor IMO.

Hopefully the "myth" of the oil pressure safety switch has been completely laid to rest now.

Christos

So it's finished? I can print out these diagrams, and discussions to take to court?

My car has no ability to shut itself off without oil? If so, great! I want everything I can get my hands on to win this.

Hah! the BAR rep. called up the place who installed my transmission a week ago, (or about 20 odometer miles ago). The tranny shop said that my engine was running "Perfectly" when it left his shop. The BAR rep. told me that would look good in court, and she has the information documented now.

Im starting to feel like I might be able to win this thing. I hope so!

Thanks again everyone, for all of you work so far, and all of your valuable input!

brharris27370

Also, you could put a sign in the window of your car stating what they did and leave it parked out front. That should wake them up.

I would get legal help for sure though. The mechanic is probably afraid of losing his job is why he won't confess to the truth which is probably going to be a problem in court as well. Most lawyers only take a percentage of the amount won no upfront cash from you. Some money is better than no money.

99Hawk120

Christos,

The first thing you need to do is verify that your fuel pump relay is working. If the relay works fine, then yes, I believe we have conclusively proved that the oil pressure switch could not have shut off your motor.

We've got:

Blueiroc (anecdotal evidence that he started his car with no oil pressure multiple times)
Zepher (swapped to TPI without hooking the switch up and his car runs)
grafx (changed the sensor and forgot to reconnect it; car ran fine)
jdrobley (disconnected oil pressure switch and started car; ran fine)
TomP (disconnected sensor by accident; car ran fine for at least a year)
Vader (disconnected oil pressure switch with car running; car did not stall)

That's what, 6 people who have personal experience with this issue, two of which specifically disconnected the switch to test this exact issue within the past few days.

I think it's safe to say it's settled. The only issue may be getting someone to testify as to the veracity of these statements in court if necessary.

Matt87GTA

The diagrams speak for themselves. Nobody should have to testify on that issue. That switch has no function other than to back up the fuel pump relay. It is not a safety switch for shutting the car down if oil pressure goes away.

Vader

Christos/Mike/Hawk/Matt - et al,

I realized the circuit was deisgned with the oil pressure switch as a backup for the relay. That fact is indisputable. An electrical engineer with 20 years+ experience had BETTER be able to see that.

The wildcard was the question of exactly what the ECM did with the relay based on its inputs. Using some simple conditional logic, it could be possible to program the ECM to operate the relay only for two seconds when the key is first turned on. There is an input from the pressure switch/pump power, cranking circuit input, and a separate input from the HEI module for reference pulses (among many others). Any or all of these inputs could be used to logically control the relay. We could all sit around and presume all day long, but until the ECM function was tested, there was no definitive answer. The ECM could have operated the relay in any of several possible ways, based on any inputs, and no one would know as long as the system operated normally.

I just wanted to affirm the operation of the ECM in relation to the relay. Through voltage measurement, relay and input disconnection, it became obvious that the ECM maintains power to the relay based on the ignition cycle timer and distributor reference pulses, and ignores the fuel pump power input for relay operation. This was not only verified with the disconnection of the pressure switch, but monitoring of relay operating coil voltage. (I also learned something more interesting about the MAF burnoff cycle, too.)

Additional investigation reminded me that the pressure switch/fuel pump power input to the ECM would probably NOT be used in the pump relay logic since it is actually an analog input, not digital. It is used solely to monitor voltage to the fuel pump. This is the only way the ECM could analyze the system and generate a DTC 19, 20, or 54.

From those results, I determined that on MY car, there is no way the pressure switch would shut off the fuel pump as long as the engine was already running. My conclusion is that this switch is definietly a backup to the pump relay and ECM operating circuit, and nothing else. It is not a safety device.

I, too, couldn't have cared less one way or the other, since my engine is running just fine. But one of our members had a real need to know, and I couldn't provide a definite answer until I was certain about the ECM operation. I would expect that anyone would do the same for someone in need.

From all that, the lack of oil pressure didn't disable the fuel pump relay, and could not have done so. The lack of oil pressure and flow most likely caused the engine to sieze from excessive heat and friction. This is supported by the fact that the starter could not turn the engine until the engine had cooled for 6-8 minutes (and probably allowed the pistons/bearing to contract) and was assisted with a boost.

I hope that clarifies the situation a bit.

86TpiTransAm

So bascially, if I start my car and unhook the oil unit and my car dies then that means my fuel pump relay is bad. Easy diagnostic work.

My question is this, if the car will still run w/out a fuel pump relay then what is it there for? Remove the fuel pump relay and the car will still run ... but with no fuel pump relay, the car would in fact die if the oil pressure dropped low. Sounds to me like that would be better.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Well, I don't know how well these cars would have sold if it were like that. Would you buy a car that took about 5-10 seconds of cranking before it started up? I wouldn't.

Danno

Sorry to read about your problem. NOBODY touches my car unless I am breathing right down thier neck. I don't give a S*** about thier rules or stupid little signs. Lot of discussion about engine stalling. Guys these cars work this way. Pump relay on for 2 sec at start, oil sender paralelled with relay takes over when oil pressure starts to go up. ECM does NOT supply power to pump, only supplies a ground to the pump relay coil to energize it. This is done internally by a solid state device in the ECM, essentially a switch. If your car runs after unplugging the oil sender it's BROKE. No ands ifs or butts. It is a SAFETY feature to prevent this type of problem. Any disagreement, look at the wiring diagram. About the engine, that is anybodys guess. If I were him I would agree to a cash settlement and run the engine for as long as possible. Decent oil has a fair amount of zinc dithiophosphate to prevent damage to the engine in the absence of oil, when there may be metal to metal contact. No doubt he has them by the *****, but I would bet a weeks pay that the motor will probably be OK. Christos, take a cash settlement and DO NOT use any agent of the offender for work(new motor etc.). Any agent they use WILL be representing only thier interests. Good Luck, Danno

Vader

Danno,

I understand that the ECM uses sinking outputs. The ECM on MY car biases the switching transistor forward for two seconds on startup, drops the ground, then again biases the transistor forward as soon as the ECM sees distributor reference pulses. I didn't meter the relay coil positive voltage to system ground, I used the sinking input from the ECM to test MY car. Maybe yours is different.

A lot of other things changed over the years, so it is POSSIBLE that the later ECM firmware was different, but the schematics are the same. This was verified by disconnecting the pressure switch (which is no easy task) while the engine was running and monitoring the relay voltage (and ground). The relay somehow still had a complete circuit, and the fuel pump still operated until the ignition was turned off. My car may be "broken", but it's only as broken as the day I got it 25,000 miles ago.

Not an argument, just relaying (no pun intended) my experiences.