Christos

I took my car in to have brake pads installed, and also have an oil change done.

I showed up a bit early to pick my car up, and they told me I needed new rear calipers. Then they proceeded to start my car, and drive off to test drive it. (I was going to drive it back tomorrow to get the work done, they were closed normally by this time).

The guy drove about 100-150 yards, to the end of the parking lot area, and the car stalled. I ran up to see what the problem was, and it sounded like a dead battery. The guy jumpstarted my car, and it sounded like crap when it started running. They shut it off, and checked this dipstick, it had NO oil on it.

They ran up and poured 4 quarts into it, and it still needed more oil. They drove it back with just 4 quarts.

I talked to the manager, and he said that he will have a dyno done on my car tomorrow, and also a compression check, to make sure there wasn't engine damage. I also left my car there, for them to check tomorrow. The engine did run though, with the 4 quarts they put in it.

What should I do? Would a compression test, and a dyno really tell what internal engine damage I might have?

I don't know what my legal options are really. With the oil in the car, i heard a slight clicking noise. I pointed this out, and they said it was, "the injectors". Then they tried to tell me the engine died because of the ECM no-oil mode, which i countered with how my 165 series ECU doesn't have a no-oil shutoff, that im aware of. Then I scared them with my paltry knowledge of Proms, and ECM related stuff. I didn't make a big show of things, or bitch anyone out. I remained polite throughout this entire ordeal. I was refunded 52 bucks, and signed for the receipt on that. Once i signed the receipt, they pulled out a sheet of paper, which shows why i was credited that amount. It comments on how the car was driven without oil, etc. There is a place to sign on this sheet, but i didn't sign it anywhere, even though i did sign the receipt for the refund. Without my signature on this paper print out, they can't say that's my only restitution right?

Should i demand they pull the valve covers, and check the heads and valves out? What should i do? They are going to check everything out tomorrow, so anything anyone can tell me would be much appreciated!

If anyone knows what I can do here, please tell me!

Thank you!

wasp

man i would have kicked some serious ***........but thats just me

Christos

Trust me, i feel like it. It won't solve anyting though.

Anyone out there know what I should have them check for tomorrow? I don't want to get it back with a 'clean bill of health' and then have the engine die on me a few days later.

RB83L69

Who is going to pronounce a "clean bill of health" on it? The people who screwed it up?

I'd contact a lawyer. One phone call from one of those should be all it takes to get a new engine, or the cash equivalent which is what I personally would do.

Christos

I was thinking about that. Not sure what kind of lawyer i should contact though.

My car did start, and run when they put in oil. I just don't want to have it die on me, or have major mechanical problems which might surface later on because of this.

Jza

I agree. Don't sign anything, especially if you don't thoroughly read it first, and don't agree to anything. Even if they try to tell you the engine is okay after the tests.

I think getting a lawyer and/or your insurance company involved would get you the best results, even though they're gonna take a good chunk of it. You may even have to go over the store manager's head to get what you have coming to you.

The important thing is to keep your head though, and let them know that you understand a serious **** up has occured and you're aware of it's implications and are not about to get screwed over on it.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

If I were you I would take it to another shop to have it checked out, there just going to try to BS you anyways to save there a$$. But it really looks like you going to have to sue for a rebuild, it might work ok now but I'am sure it took years off the life of your engine.

84 Z-28 350

100 revoulitons on a engine with no oil at all will ruin it about 1000 revoulitons on an engine with an oil residue will burn off the residue and kill it I'd say no matter what they say your engine is F@#KED no matter what they say. I'd call a lawyer ASAP like NOW and also start planing how you want your NEW engine built up

Swapmaster

It's scewed. It may be quiet now, but it won't be for long.

Christos

Should I demand a rebuild then?

BAK12484

...demand a damn brand spankin new motor I think a ZZ4 350 crate motor should suffice lol

Christos

Hehe wouldn't i love that. I got the 305 TPI now.

Ok, weill they are going to call me tomorrow before noon they said. Im going to have to contact somebody, and see what I can figure out.

Seriously, does everyone think that they should rebuild? Im assuming they would have to fix what they broke, so asking for a ZZ4 wouldn't work. Still, if I can get them to rebuild/replace, ill sure as he!l point out that a crate 350 is cheaper then a crate 305.

Oh boy, this isn't going to be fun for me. Ill have to call a lawyer and see what they say I guess.

Thank you for all of your inpur so far everyone!

8Mike9

I'd be demanding something, that's for sure...cpmpression test won't tell you what you really want to know, nor would a dyno..in my mind I'm seeing all this metal getting spun off of varoius places.

Only real way to check for damage would be a complete teardown, not sure who would/could arbitrate the "before".

At the very least I'd be looking at them paying all labor costs to R&R the engine and full rental car while it's being done. Them paying for a new longblock would be nice, but they may try to "pro-rate" the milage you had to the new block...don't let'em, no matter what. It's not like you wanted to spend any money on a new engine right now anyways.

If you do contact a lawyer (wait to see what they say first), sue them for his charges as well.

In reality, the shop should have some sort of bond/insurance against this type of thing, and will probably only be into it for the cost of thier deductable.

Good luck, so far you're doing it the right way..being calm and not getting irate...but be firm in your demands and unbending.

Christos

Called my insurance. They are bare bones, so they couldn't give me much info.

Im going to call a lawyer tomorrow (it's sunday evening, nobody is open), and tell them the situation. Still, I just bought a new transmission, and im very poor. I can't afford to spend an new engines's worth of money on a lawyer.

I will ask them tomorrow about doing a complete teardown, to estimate the internal damage. Hopefully they will agree to that.

I hope they are insured, that way they might not fight me over this.

Thanks again for the posts everyone! keep them coming!

89blackbird

It is clear they screwed up. The question is what will you get. You would be lucky to find a judge to give you a new motor.Simple reason it was not new when you took it in. You would be intitled to equal value. (I realize that sucks) It is clear running an engine without oil does damage. Pulling a valve cover will show nothing.The real damage is in the lower end. I would speak to the manager first.Stay cool and explain you will take him to claims court if need be. Then take the car to 3 garages and explain what happened and get prices for a rebuild. Most states allow claims court judgements of at least 1500.00 . Remember don't lose your cool. Lawyers cost money. Good luck

poncho9789

Your biggest worries should be the rings and berrings. If it were my car and I had done the same thing to my own car I would go ahead and pull the engine and replace the rings and berrings. regardless. If the berrings looked ok then i might just put the old berrings in it but that would be depending on the mesasurement of the berrings in relationship to the crank. I would have them give you a new engine.

If I were you I would shoot for a new engine concidering the damage they probably did to the bottom end. I would definately have another shop check the engine out or talk to another mechanic about it before you just let them have at the car.

Just look at it this way everyone makes mistakes and that includes mechanics. At least they are seeming to want to make things right even if the things they are wanting to do doesn't really tell them if the dammage came from them or the natural wear of the engine.

poncho9789

I just noticed you have a 86 so your cam and lifters are probably shot too.

RedFirebird

A lube-jock joy-ride landed me a blown motor in my 'vette when i dropped it off at a shop to have it smogged (something along the order of 5 dead cylinder's with practically no compression and chunks of metal in the oil). The owner was cool about it and canned the guy and is going to cover having a new longblock installed. Its a little different situation but still.....

Christos

Well, i had a good tune up a few months ago. My engine was running strong, stronger then it has when i bought it a few years ago. I have a little over 100,000 miles on the engine.

I was even commenting about how my engine ran strong before this.

Well, ill have to tell them im afraid for the bearings, and rings, and the whole bottom end. What about the heads and what not? They have oil going to them too. Could they have been warped or broken somehow? Im not sure what I can request to be replaced/repaired still. Small claims court, someone mentioned, up to 1,500 in the state of california?

Even then, that would cover a shortblock, but not installation. I live near aliso viejo, it's like mini beverly hills out here, mechanics want 10 times what they normally want in other places. So i know that wouldnt cover very much.

Greg Kuhlmann

my buddy had just bought a 72 chevy truck. the very first oil change he had done to it the shop *forgot to put oil in it* a few miles down the road it locked up on him... the shop bought him a brand new crate engine from GM. a 3000 dollar engine even put it in for him. i believe it was 'quick lube'. id say you could get a new motor. the truck was a 72 with 1xx,xxx miles on it.

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

Any time you whip out lawyer and talk to places like that things get done.

Like everyone else said. Stay cool and just explain to them that your car is messed up and that it just needs to be taken care of.

89transam

I would think the place would not even want to mess with it and shell out the 3 grand or however much to fix it. Espically if its a national chain.


Nate

F-BIRD'88

An unfortunate screwup to say the least.
But may not be that bad. The motor may tick for a few seconds or minutes until the Hydraulic lifters fill up, but should stop.
If they didn't rev the motor or run it under high load it shouldn't be that bad. I would have them drain the 4 qts of new oil into a clean pan for inspection and cut open the filter. If there is no metal filings found, then I'd refill the pan and new filter with fresh oil and restart the car with a mechanics oil presure guage hooked up. Let the motor warm up at idle while watching the oil pressure
guage and temp. If all looks good I'd get an engine stethoscope and listen to the motor for unusual noise (rods, lifters.)
If there is no noises and it seems to run ok, it is likely that it
is no worse for wear then before, considering the mileage.
and the short time you stated that they ran it without oil.
There is going to be previous normal wear with 100k miles on it.
Then I would sit down with the Manager/ Owner and get an agreement on paper documenting the mishap and testing
and have them agree to repair the motor, now, or later should it come to and early unexpected demise down the road from normal use. A chassis dyno test or compression test will not tell you much. If there was fatal damage to any degree it will show up soon enough under normal driving.
If they give you any bit of a hard time, call a lawyer.
Have a lawyer that is experienced in these matters check over any agreement you draw up, for legalities before you sign anything. They certainily owe you a sincere apoligy
and some sort of repair solution if it turns out that your motor was infact damaged. They may carry shop insurance that covers just such a mishap. Good Luck

redbird_400

I smell a new engine. Take that to court! Bottom line they drove your car with out oil in the engine. They know they fked up. They are just tring to find a way out of it. Dont agree with them, they just dont want to look bad. I wouldn't even car if it seens like it didnt do anything to the engine. If you take that to court and the judge looks at that. Hhmm shop took oil out of customers car then drove it with out putting oil back in... the next question is "why did they not put oil in your car?" Thats where they will fall. DO NOT LET THEM SCREW YOU ON THIS!



I would be pissed

GoldenSwordZ28

Ummm, not to bust any bubbles.... but I thought I'd bring this up. A few weeks ago Sears destroyed the drivers side fender and Rocker Pannel GFX by putting my car on the lift wrong, the total repairs ended up costing $1,169.82, now, thats including the replacement of the broken GFX peice, the repair and refinishing of the front fender, and the repainting of all GFX. HOWEVER, after dealing with the Sears insurance company I found out that they will only give you up to a certain ammount of money for the repairs.... and basicly mine was above what they would give me for repairs, I had to argue with the *** on the phone for like 2 hours to finally just get him to write me a check for the full ammount of repairs. If it had been $100 more, I would have had to have made up the difference. What irks me is that if Sears had known that rule, that means they could have totaled my car and set it on fire and only had to pay what the local Chevy Dealership would buy my car from me for. Which is a bunch of , but thats how they do it. What I worry about is, is if the cost of Engine repairs are higher than the value of the vehicle.... you may have to fight, or go down swinging at least in order to get anywhere near the compensation your owed. The act the insurance company was declaring was 'Total Loss', DO NOT let them F-you, you deserve compensation for some a$$ f ucks screw up, DO NOT settle!!

Adam

Synapsis

This is exactly the reason I leave my anti-theft turned on. The car doesn't go anywhere without me starting it. The only downfall to this is from morons screwing up my column from turning the key too hard to start it.

I'd say someone definately owes you a longblock... and a rental car. 10 bucks says they offer you 5 years free lube jobs.

Widowmaker

Man, the same thing happened to my aunts 86 Cutlass Supreme! She ended up getting a rebuilt motor out of it, so maybe you will too. I have decided that unless it is a job I just absolutely cannot do-I am NOT letting any MF touch my car again. People just dont care about it like you do...

Rock on:rockon:

VincentMordanon

i would have them take off the oil pan and inspect the berrings. if the engine died after running i would be worried about a bearring locking onto the crank and ripping loose from the block. had that happen on one of my cars before and normally theres no saving the block if the bearing spins. i definately smell a lawsuit

Ed Maher

Here is what *I* would do.

Walk in there and tell them that they fragged your bottom end. They know they drove your car w/o oil so they know it's a possibility. If they demand proof tell them that you can hear the rod knock faintly already. Of course they'll say they don't hear it but their opinion doesn't matter too much since they made the mistake. If they persist that they don't hear it, demand that the entire engine be torn down and blueprinted to verify that no unacceptable wear has occurred, as it is the ONLY way to settle the matter. A compression test and dyno won't tell you a thing about what happened to the crank and rod bearings and journals.

Basically you're using this as fodder for a new shortblock. If the above doesn't work, i'd drive it around the block, put it in neutral and hold the pedla to the floor until *POP*. Walk back around the corner and tell them that the engine just blew and they'll be hearing from your lawyer post haste.

Dr. Pepper

The stall out is the major concern. What would make the engine stall? Most likely excessive friction on the crank. Friction means bearing damage and possibly spun bearings. The engine may croak on the dyno. I have known an engine or two that have suffered bearing damage and lasted 5,000-6,000 miles before spinning the bearings and destroying the block/crank/rods. A careful hot oil pressure check might indicate something. It won't really tell you if the bearings are damaged but will tell you if they are already opening up. Definately tear apart the new filter and drain the pan looking for metal. I would push to have the pan removed to inspect for metal and to visually inspect every rod and main journal/bearing. Maybe even photograph each one as they go. I can't say I would trust the shop to do it. They may deem a lightly damaged bearing as normal wear and tear. Without at least a partial tear down I can't see a way to prove the bearings are good, only to prove they are already garbage. This is an easy one for the shop to win and you to lose. All they have to do is prove in the next few hours of run time that the engine is ok. Once you agree its ok they are out of danger when the bearings cut the crank in half next month.

jcb999

If anything happens in the next year they eat it.
Then you run some engine oil samples and watch oil pressure.

Its really the best of both worlds, they are liable but not to the point of requiring a rebuild now.

And your not out your car unless it fails.

Christos

Well, I talked to the manager of the service shop over at the local chevy dealership.

Told him my story, he laughed, and said, "if it was us, we would get you a new engine, and im positive that is what they will do".

He also said for me to have them at the chevy dealership do the installation. I agree.

I will talk to the owner of the lube shop today, and see what they will agree too. Still, as a bright note, the chevy dealer said he would help me get a 350 in there instead of a 305 replacement! So this might work out good for me. The prices of both long blocks are about the same.

Thanks for all of the input so far guys! Ill keep you all posted!

jdrobley

the reason his car stalled is because the oil pressure switch that controls the fuel pump wasn't closed. the car was able to be started because the pump turns for about 2 sec when you turn the key on to prime the system. the car probably ran off of the pressure in the fuel system dropped low enough to starve the engine.

sounds like you are getting some good advice. good luck
jess

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Businesses have insurance for this very thing. They don't like to have to use it, but honest mistakes do happen. I poured 5 qts of oil on the shop floor 29 years ago because I forgot to put the drain plug back in once (just once - and I knew it before I started the engine).

Stay cool with them, don't go overboard in your demands, sounds like you've got an ally in the local dealer.

Let us know.

P.S.: I drove a car with a busted oil pump for about 5 miles of stop-&-go before I realized it and shut it down. Long story, but since it had synthetic in the crankcase at the time, the bearings still had a film of lube on them when I checked, plastigaged within specs, and the car was driven for another 100k before the body fell off around the engine. That was 12 years ago - think I use petroleum oil in anything today?

Christos

I have a leak, so i don't use synthetic. If i do get a new engine though, once it's been worn a bit with regular oil, im sure going to use synthetic! I have heard plenty about how good the stuff is.

Thanks for the post! Im shooting for them to rebuild/replace my engine, and have the local chevy dealership do the work, not their mechanics. I hope that isn't asking too much.

ill post again once i know what they say.

99Hawk120

Bzzzt. Sorry, thank you for playing, but that's the wrong answer.

The oil pressure "switch" is in parallel with the fuel pump relay. It's designed to allow the car to start (after extended cranking) even if the fuel pump relay is dead. My theory behind this was that GM would prefer that cars come in with the customers complaining of "hard starting" rather than have the car flatbedded to the dealership because it won't start at all. IMO the switch could have been designed to do both, but it wasn't.

The switch will not "stall" the motor by running it out of fuel if there is no oil pressure. Don't believe me, start your car and then unplug the oil pressure switch (NOT the gauge sender). I bet you $2 your car keeps running if your fuel pump relay is any good.

I studied the factory diagrams for those switches when I installed my crate motor, which DOES in fact have the switch wired in series (because I wired it and did it that way on purpose). Down side is my car won't run if the fuel pump relay goes bad--big deal, I have about 6 of those relays under my hood, I can always grab a non-essential one like the fog light relay.

I can think of a couple of things that could have stalled the motor.

First, the lifters could have collapsed from lack of oil. At idle, that may have been a loss of enough lift to stall the motor especially if they weren't giving it gas.

Second, excessive friction could have stalled it. I've had motors stall and/or stumble right after start because they had too MUCH oil in them (friction from the crank counterweights hitting the oil in the pan, i guess). If this is the case, then irreversable damage has in fact been done; the only question is how much and whether or not it will be fatal in the very short term or if it merely took 10k off the engine's life span.

I would make them drop the pan and inspect the main bearings. At least drain the oil and cut open the filter looking for metal shavings. If you see a significant amount, stick a fork in it, it's done.

jdrobley

i still disagree, yes it is in parallel, as the key being turned on or oil pressure being applied will supply power to the pump, but the key being turned on isn't supposed to supply constant power. the main reason for the key prime is so you don't have to crank it for 20 seconds waiting for the oil pump to build enough pressure to close the switch and activate the pump.

if i unplug the switch at the oil pump, it had better kill my fuel pump. that is the whole reason for having that piece; to keep you from driving around the world without oil pressure. if it couldn't kill the pump, then there is no reason to have the pressure switch there in the first place.

check and mate,
jess

99Hawk120

I've looked at the electrical diagrams and I see absolutely no way it could kill the pump in a no-oil situation. "In parallel" means just that, it's one of several signals providing a path to ground to tell the fuel pump to run.

I'm serious. Disconnect the pressure switch and start the car. If the car starts and continues to run, I'll give you $2. If the car won't start, or starts and stalls, I'll give you $2 if you prove to me your fuel pump relay is good.

99Hawk120

And if you still don't believe me:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...uel+pump+relay
http://www.geocities.com/vtcamaro/Pi...rams/pg153.jpg

If you look at the wiring diagram (second link) and understand how these systems work, you will realize there is absolutely NO way for the system to work as you described.

A short description:

+12V goes across the "Fuel Pump Switch". With sufficient Oil pressure, the switch closes, energizing the fuel pump.

IN PARALLEL, the fuel pump relay will energize and provide +12V to the fuel pump whenever the ECM applies +12V to pin C.

If there is insufficient oil pressure, the fuel pump switch will remain open. However, the ECM can still provide +12V on pin C of the relay and energize the fuel pump THAT way.

If the relay fails, the pump will not turn on until the oil pressure switch closes. Once the switch closes, the pump will receive +12V and continue to run until the oil pressure switch opens.

If BOTH fail, you get a no start. If only the relay fails, you get a hard start. If only the switch fails, NOTHING happens.

Brian Shaughnessy

WASP, Not to be too far off the subject but I'm in Saugerties also... what are you driving?

Haven't seen many folks in the immediate area on here.

jdrobley

99hawk,
i verified what you said about the parallel circuits, all is right. i never disagreed there. the only common point is the fuel pump fuse. the issue is that there is confusion as to how long the ecm supplies power to the relay. i encourage you to read vader's response in this link. let me know if you still disagree and why you think the ecm would supply constant power to the relay.
jess

99Hawk120

From what I've read, the ECM provides power to the fuel pump relay:

A) As vader said, for ~2 seconds on initial key-on.

B) Whenever the ECM thinks the car is running. Just guessing here, but the ECM probably uses the distributor signal for that.

Unfortunately that site only has wiring diagrams, and not the text that goes with them, and I won't be able to tell you which of us is correct on THAT until 7pm tonight or when someone else pipes up with the necessary information.

Christos

Hi guys, just a reminder, after the engine died, they were able to start it again. It ran for about 10-15 seconds without oil again after this, then was shut off.

So it did die, but it didn't seize up or anything. They tried to tell me it was the ECM which shut off the motor. I disagree on that. Never heard anyone mention anything about this before. Not sure about this pressure switch stuff in either case. It's beyond me already!

Still waiting on a call from the owner, going to call them here in a bit again and get more information...

99Hawk120

Christos;

Actually, if you'll bear with us, we're arguing about whether or not it is possible for the car to shut itself off due to lack of oil pressure. If this can be conclusively proved one way or the other it may be of use to you.

jd;

I have found this link in which two people seem to agree with what I'm saying. However, until someone gets at a Helms manual, or we get Vader or GMTech back in here, I think the question will remain unresolved.

Christos

Great! Thanks guys!

I was reading some, and once wire diagrams came up, i was getting a bit lost. Hey, i know some things about thirdgens, but you guys are the cream fo the crop, i can't compete, I just wanted to make sure you knew that it did die, but still restarted with no oil.

99Hawk120

Another link to a fuel pump thread. Take a look at what Mike's quoting from the manual.

jdrobley

hawk,
all those discussions are quite contversial and could be viewed any number of ways. what hurts is that the topic seams to shift around a bit. christos's car is behaving like i was describing it should. it died and the guy was able to restart it by turning the key back on which reprimed the fuel system for another go. if i follow your arguement correctly, you say his fuel pump should have kept running regaurdless of oil pressure. since his car did die again, this would imply 2 scenarios according to your ideals. 1) his ecm is toast and is not keeping the fuel pump going constantly. 2) the engine friction temporarily siezed the engine, allowed him to imediatly start the car again, then sieze again.

the issue of the ecm always supplying keyed power is still open.
i will check some sources when i get home tonight.
jess

99Hawk120

Actually, I have yet to see a TPI car that will reprime that quickly after a stall. More importantly, unless they cycled the key to "off" between starts, I don't see how the ECM could have reprimed it.

I was under the impression it took about 20 sec between key cycles before it would reprime. I don't believe the ECM has a fuel pressure sensor, so I don't know exactly what makes it reprime the fuel rail.

Of course, if the FP Relay is bad to start with, that will have the effect of causing the oil pressure switch to act as a safety switch.

I don't have a running TPI car that I can easily get at to determine which of us is right, so I'm unfortunately going to have to go by the books. But I think this is something that needs to be settled IMO; I went through the archives and see GMTech posting one thing (agreeing with you) and Vader posting the other (agreeing with me). No matter how you cut it, one side is right and one side is wrong, and if I turn out to be wrong I'll certainly admit it. But no one is benefitting from this issue remaining murky.

Christos

jdrobley, let me clairify.

The mechanic was driving when my car died the first time. He tried starting it a few times, but it just made a 'click' noise.

About 10 mins later, with the key in the "off" position, they jumpstarted my car. It started up, and sounded awful. They then installed a new battery, added 4 quarts of oil, and started the car again. It should have been in the "off" position during all of this, while i was watching. This maybe took 6-8 mins.

They then started it again, and drove 100 years back to the shop on 4 quarts of oil. The engine sounded like it was ticking a little bit, but they claimed it was the injectors. It was a quick clicking, and it didnt' sound familiar, but then i was listening hard too, and might have been super sensitve to that sound, hearing it for the first time.

Hope this helps!

Ed Maher

If i wouldn't burn the hell out of my hand i'd try your theory in the lot now ron, lol. Still, i tend to believe you are correct. Like you said, if the engine is running the ECM will keep the relay energized, and as 8mike9 quoted in one of your links, the ecm only knows the engine is on by reference pulses from the distributor. The ECM does not know oil pressure.