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I race down here in NC at a local 3/8 mile paved circle track. The rules state that the car model must come stock with a 4 cyl engine and must be rear wheel drive, single cam, 2000lbs + 1lb per CC. The winners every week are the fox body mustangs, i had a toyota celica that ran fairly well, note the monte carlo front nose. There are NO chevy's at the track in my class. I was wondering how u guys think a 4 cyl camaro would stack up againist these cars. Longer wheel base, maybe more power out of the GM motor? IDK what do yall guys think.
Hears my old Toyota
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Well, the chevy 4 cyl in these cars (nicknamed the "Iron Duke") came with about 90hp or something obscene like that. Not sure what those other cars are running though.
i forgot to say it has to be a front engine car.
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The toyota motor (22r) came stock with 95 hp or so and the ford 2300 i dont think made much more than that. The actual car didnt have to have a 4cyl in it just the make and model. so i could swap a 4 cyl into a v6 camaro. They build these lil 4 cyl's to make about 150-175 hp im sure u could do that from the duke
Last edited by heff17; 10-14-2008 at 08:46 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
If you can swap in any built 4 cylinder than a 3rd gen Camaro is a good way to go. You will have just about perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and ask anybody who knows these cars, they are known to be exceptional handlers in stock form, stellar with a few basic suspension mods. The duke is a 2.5 liter which is a relativity high displacement 4 cyl so I'm sure there's some kind of potential there.
so you guys dont think i can strip everything out of a camaro and put a role cage in and make a 2500 lb weight? There is no real displacement limitations, the rules say you can bore them out to max, but a stock crank. however they never open any of these motors up to see if you are running a stroker crank, so alot of people do that. The only thing is i would have to run the GM 4cyl duke, but any of the duke versions would work. We run 13x8" tires with hoosier racing slicks so if you know a little you can make these cars handle great. Most guys run a 4.56 gear and run in 3rd gear putting the rpm band from 4500-6500 rpm
You could strip the car, but the Iron Duke is still a turd that weighs nearly as much as a V8, but with no performance parts available. Unless you managed to get your hands on an SD4 or something, you'd have a hard time making any more power than stock.
You could strip the car, but the Iron Duke is still a turd that weighs nearly as much as a V8, but with no performance parts available. Unless you managed to get your hands on an SD4 or something, you'd have a hard time making any more power than stock.
Well i got my hands on a SD4 head, 42cc major porting already done. Its a bare iron head, but the price was right... FREE. May look a little rusty to the eye but if you take a look at the porting its a jewel.
The head isnt really legal for the class im running in but i think ill be able to get by with it for a while.
I also aquired an early 80's camaro z28 no title, no engine, no transmisson, for a mini-starter and a kenwood car cd player. Perfect candidate for a race car.
Got an early 2.5L shortblock for... free from the local machine shop, i guess he knows he will be picking up some machine work from it.
Does anybody know if the 2.5 uses the v-8 frame motor mounts? i would assume it does since its half of the v-8
Taking the build nice and slow, keeping cost down. But im going to be gutting the new car and getting it ready for the role cage, while doing a little motor work as the money allows
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383ci w/ hyper pistons 10:1, Eagle cast crank, PM rods with ARP bolts, Aluminum heads with 190cc intake runners, 3 angle valve job, 2.02/1.6 valves, Edelbrock 7102 Performer RPM Camshaft & Lifters .488/.510 - 234/244 - 117, Edelbrock 7101 Intake with holley 750 DP street HP Carb, Complete MSD ignition 85551 Distributor, 6430 box, blaster coil and 8.5mm wires.
With such a high flowing head im planning on running alot of rpm to get an advantage on the competition. Along with a solid lift cam .588 lift and 260 duration @ 50.
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383ci w/ hyper pistons 10:1, Eagle cast crank, PM rods with ARP bolts, Aluminum heads with 190cc intake runners, 3 angle valve job, 2.02/1.6 valves, Edelbrock 7102 Performer RPM Camshaft & Lifters .488/.510 - 234/244 - 117, Edelbrock 7101 Intake with holley 750 DP street HP Carb, Complete MSD ignition 85551 Distributor, 6430 box, blaster coil and 8.5mm wires.
With such a high flowing head im planning on running alot of rpm to get an advantage on the competition. Along with a solid lift cam .588 lift and 260 duration @ 50.
I would build an early S10 with some derivative of the new ecotec. You could have 175hp with under 2500 lbs. I don't know what the suspension rules are but you could make one compete as well as a thirdgen I would imagine. A solid Iron Duke car believe it or not have a lot of value. I would not cut one up. I would take a V6 car and drop in a 4 cylinder T5 S10 powerplant instead.
it was my understanding that all the little toyota motors had the pee pee wound out of them on the circle tracks.... like 10k rpms or some junk. may be the same for the other makes of motors in that class as well but i donno.
I would build an early S10 with some derivative of the new ecotec. You could have 175hp with under 2500 lbs. I don't know what the suspension rules are but you could make one compete as well as a thirdgen I would imagine. A solid Iron Duke car believe it or not have a lot of value. I would not cut one up. I would take a V6 car and drop in a 4 cylinder T5 S10 powerplant instead.
believe it or not im doing the swap into an early z28. The guy im getting the car from bought it just for the motor and transmission, so i got the shell of the car. Exactly what i was looking for. I have the v8 t5 i pulled out of my camaro when i swapped in my tko-600 so im going to use that.
I have a bad felling your gonna be wasting time and money, BIG TIME. my car weighs 3475 with driver and about 250 pounds of weight. so figure 450 pounds added after gutting the car..........and this car is GUTTED to the fullest. I dont thing your going to be able to get the car under 2800 pounds and still have a safe, drivable car. Not on a budget anyway, and if your running the 4 banger class I asume your on a budget. You'd be better off runing a V8 class like "Anycar" or "Grocery getter". Mainly because the money it takes to build a strong running 4 cyl......well....... to put it simply "You could have had a V8!" Go to the post "3rd gen street stock build" and look for my pic's. I cant get them to reload right now
I have a bad felling your gonna be wasting time and money, BIG TIME. my car weighs 3475 with driver and about 250 pounds of weight. so figure 450 pounds added after gutting the car..........and this car is GUTTED to the fullest. I dont thing your going to be able to get the car under 2800 pounds and still have a safe, drivable car. Not on a budget anyway, and if your running the 4 banger class I asume your on a budget. You'd be better off runing a V8 class like "Anycar" or "Grocery getter". Mainly because the money it takes to build a strong running 4 cyl......well....... to put it simply "You could have had a V8!" Go to the post "3rd gen street stock build" and look for my pic's. I cant get them to reload right now
Didn't you pay attention to that thread? zlathim posted that the car they built weighed 26XX, and that was with a full cage and a v8. My DD '85 Camaro weighs just over 3,100, (last time it was on the scales it weighed 3,260, IIRC, but I believe it had 100% of its stock weight at the time) but I'm not sure of the weight because I've done a lot of weight reduction since the last time it was weighed.
BTW, the reason you can't reload your pics is because you can only post each pic once on TGO.
well 2600lbs would be great. Plus i have a little room to save even there because our ministock wheels and tires are a little lighter, adds up over all 4 corners. Im only running "half" of a v8, 35lb crank opposed to 50lbs. Smaller fuel cell and about 10 gal less of gas to carry. i think i should be able to get it down to 2600. I really like the camaro because of all the OEM ( we have to run oem equipment ) options they cam with. Different swaybars, shock/strut packages. And the fact the large displacement duke was offered in the camaro since i can only run an engine offered in the origional make and model.
Here are some pics of the head im going to run. It made 300+ hp on a fully built dry sump n/a race Duke.
Did you fail your reading comprehension tests in school? You see, I wasnt speaking of what Zlathim has done. I wasnt there with them building his car.........I built my own. So I am speaking of MY experiance, not his. Note our cars are a little different. For one my car does not have the rollcage welded to the floor pan. instead we cut the floor completely out and gutted the rocker panels. Then we installed 2x3 tubing inside them to weld our cage to.(I think I explained this in that same thread,or didnt you pay attention?) We also did a simular process on the front and rear frame rails. It also has half the front inner fender still there as we are have to run stock shock/strut mounts. This may acount for the 150-200 LBS differance in out cars(Empty weight) I dont recall ever saying it was IMPOSSIBLE, Simply said not that safe, which that may have been a poor choice of words on my part. My point being that if you cut too much out, even with a roll cage, your car could be too weak and not beable to take the abuse of southern bullring tracks. Also chassis flexcan be an issue. its pretty tit-for-tat. Leave in some metal or add it in the form of a roll cage. You want your suspention to work, not the frame to flex and absorb your power. That is to say that as the engine produces torque, if the frame flex's then you just lost that much to the rear wheels.
Wise man once said "Seven days without food, makes one weak!"
Last edited by 1brd2brd3brd4; 07-21-2009 at 09:19 PM.
Did you fail your reading comprehension tests in school? You see, I wasnt speaking of what Zlathim has done. I wasnt there with them building his car.........I built my own. So I am speaking of MY experiance, not his. Note our cars are a little different. For one my car does not have the rollcage welded to the floor pan. instead we cut the floor completely out and gutted the rocker panels. Then we installed 2x3 tubing inside them to weld our cage to.(I think I explained this in that same thread,or didnt you pay attention?) We also did a simular process on the front and rear frame rails. It also has half the front inner fender still there as we are have to run stock shock/strut mounts. This may acount for the 150-200 LBS differance in out cars(Empty weight) I dont recall ever saying it was IMPOSSIBLE, Simply said not that safe, which that may have been a poor choice of words on my part. My point being that if you cut too much out, even with a roll cage, your car could be too weak and not beable to take the abuse of southern bullring tracks. Also chassis flexcan be an issue. its pretty tit-for-tat. Leave in some you want your suspention to work, not the frame to flex and absorb your power. That is to say that as the engine produces torque, if the frame flex's then you just lost that much to the rear wheels.
Did you fail your reading comprehension tests in school? You see, I wasnt speaking of what Zlathim has done. I wasnt there with them building his car.........I built my own. So I am speaking of MY experiance, not his. Note our cars are a little different. For one my car does not have the rollcage welded to the floor pan. instead we cut the floor completely out and gutted the rocker panels. Then we installed 2x3 tubing inside them to weld our cage to.(I think I explained this in that same thread,or didnt you pay attention?) We also did a simular process on the front and rear frame rails. It also has half the front inner fender still there as we are have to run stock shock/strut mounts. This may acount for the 150-200 LBS differance in out cars(Empty weight) I dont recall ever saying it was IMPOSSIBLE, Simply said not that safe, which that may have been a poor choice of words on my part. My point being that if you cut too much out, even with a roll cage, your car could be too weak and not beable to take the abuse of southern bullring tracks. Also chassis flexcan be an issue. its pretty tit-for-tat. Leave in some you want your suspention to work, not the frame to flex and absorb your power. That is to say that as the engine produces torque, if the frame flex's then you just lost that much to the rear wheels.
I'll just say that it is possible to build a light and safe third gen. Did you see the pics I posted of my dads car in the 3rd gen street stock build thread? That car retained most of the stock sheet metal, including inner fenders and interior sheet metal. The track that the car was built to race at required this. That said, that car (as was pictured) weighed 26xx lbs., including driver and fluids. Over 400 pounds of lead was poured into the rockers, and another 100 pounds of movable balast was added to meet minimum weight. But, that car had a V6, which shouldn't weigh much less, if any, than a 4 cyl. car. I'd assume that car was very safe and flexed little, due to the full cage.
Heff17, I think that you could get a circle track Camaro to weigh under 2,700 pounds at race weight.
Well i got my hands on a SD4 head, 42cc major porting already done. Its a bare iron head, but the price was right... FREE. May look a little rusty to the eye but if you take a look at the porting its a jewel.
If its legal i would go that route. Alot of v8 parts and heads available out there. Might be able to find a good long tube header that would work with the setup also. Only thing you would have to do is make an intake.
what track are you or did race at? i live just outside of Raleigh NC and i often go out to wake county speedway and orange county speedway. ive got a 90 240sx that im planning on racing at orange county.
First, I believe the reason he is using an Iron Duke is because the rules require that he uses an engine that was originally available in the model of car he is using. As in, no mercruiser engines, or anything else.
Second, SBC's are very commonly used as boat motors, as well as many other engines, and they seem to work fine in cars, my point being that I see no reason why a Mercruiser engine wouldn't work in a car.
First, I believe the reason he is using an Iron Duke is because the rules require that he uses an engine that was originally available in the model of car he is using. As in, no mercruiser engines, or anything else.
Second, SBC's are very commonly used as boat motors, as well as many other engines, and they seem to work fine in cars, my point being that I see no reason why a Mercruiser engine wouldn't work in a car.
He could run the Mercruiser 3.0 which is a bored/stroked 2.5 with a better flowing head. Looks very much like an Iron Duke.
i tried very very hard to get the mercruiser 3.0 motor to work. They have one at the machine shop im going to and i looked it up and down. The heads on the 3.0 are different than the head i have. They arnt "cross flow" meaning the exhaust and intake are on the same side of the motor. kinda a bummer for aftermarket intake or headders. and my head wont fit on the 3.0 block with out alot of work. I also thought of sticking the 3.0 crank into the 2.5 block. ALSO wouldnt work. it has a strange rear main seal design that wouldnt work with the car block. im beginning to kinda like the 2.5's crank b.c its so light i think it will spin the motor up fast. which is really what im going for. Also keeping the bottom end "legal" will give me a little room if the track decides not to like the head im running. I can just swap to a legal head.
And as for the track. ive always run at ace speedway
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383ci w/ hyper pistons 10:1, Eagle cast crank, PM rods with ARP bolts, Aluminum heads with 190cc intake runners, 3 angle valve job, 2.02/1.6 valves, Edelbrock 7102 Performer RPM Camshaft & Lifters .488/.510 - 234/244 - 117, Edelbrock 7101 Intake with holley 750 DP street HP Carb, Complete MSD ignition 85551 Distributor, 6430 box, blaster coil and 8.5mm wires.
I really like what you are doing and hope you are having fun. I just have one question though. You stated somewhere that you have to run a car that originally came with a 4cylinder right? I don't think the second gen Camaro came with a 4 did it??? I could be wrong. Just wondering.
No, I don't think any generation of camaro came with a 4cyl except the 3rd gen. Thats so sad for us Anywho I think what youre doing is awesome I wish i could do something like that. Have fun!
No, I don't think any generation of camaro came with a 4cyl except the 3rd gen. Thats so sad for us Anywho I think what youre doing is awesome I wish i could do something like that. Have fun!
i tried very very hard to get the mercruiser 3.0 motor to work. They have one at the machine shop im going to and i looked it up and down. The heads on the 3.0 are different than the head i have. They arnt "cross flow" meaning the exhaust and intake are on the same side of the motor. kinda a bummer for aftermarket intake or headders. and my head wont fit on the 3.0 block with out alot of work. I also thought of sticking the 3.0 crank into the 2.5 block. ALSO wouldnt work. it has a strange rear main seal design that wouldnt work with the car block. im beginning to kinda like the 2.5's crank b.c its so light i think it will spin the motor up fast. which is really what im going for. Also keeping the bottom end "legal" will give me a little room if the track decides not to like the head im running. I can just swap to a legal head.
And as for the track. ive always run at ace speedway
check out the mercruiser 485 its an Aluminum 4 cyl 185 HP stock and it uses 1 Ford 460 head the ford 429 and Ford 460 heads are the same (429/460 heads have giant ports) the iron head is like 85lbs an Aluminum Ford 460 head is like 1/2 that the block used a GM bell housing flywheel/starter configuration, also mercruiser has a 2bbl to 4 bbl adaptor and the matching Quadra-jet 4 bbl, regrind the cam, find an aluminum Ford 429/460 head, shave it a little, find and old set of Ford 429/460 headers
. PITA to work on tho.... 
If you can throw on a head and you'll be 
Anywho I think what youre doing is awesome I wish i could do something like that. Have fun! 
