Quote: Originally posted by SinthetikIroc i remember when somebody was sayin the same thin about him hittin mid 14's. and somebody else again about hittin 13's. Respectfully Ill be the next one to say that with only a .2 sec 60ft reduction he will not see a .945 reduction in ET for a 13.007, not with his current set up. I'm not saying he may or may not see his estimated ET but it'll take more work than just sticky tires and launching better but by all means prove me wrong and I'll gladly eat my words

a lot more then a .2 difference in 60ft my friend, 2.454 14.315 @ 100.2, isnt the rule a tenth off the 60 equals 2 at the end. so figure a 1.8 60 with some suspension work and the proper tires, then "mathmatically" like i said before it equates to a 13.007. but realistically it probably wont go faster then a mid 13. i wish people would take the time to read posts better as well as people signatures and such

i musrt agree that if he drops his 60' times down a 1/2sec that might not be good enough fopr a 12 sec runs but it will put him in a 13.2 mark atleast

0.100 off of your short time does NOT equate to 0.200 at the end of the track. I'm not saying that its not possible to run 12.9 on a stock motor. Oops stock motor w/ 1.6 rockers. BTW why do the rockers? There are guys out there putting well over 300 HP out of a V-6 4th gen car. All N/A stock heads cam and intake. And stock rockers. If you're pulling a 2.45 60' now, I wouldn't expect you to drop 0.65 sec. the next time your out. Buy slicks. You won't do it on street tires. Buy some serious suspension parts. Your ET is going to depend on your short time. You should be shooting for a 1.65-1.7 60', not a 1.8. Pull more weight out of the car. It won't be done w/ full interior. You need to lighten the car up.

Good luck, your gunna need it.

I agree with Free Bird, I think your gonna need to gut that darn thing, and at least mini tub it to get that kind of Time. ALSO, I personnaly Challenge ANYONE to show me a VALID timeslip of a mid-low 13 second run with Stock Heads and Cam. *** KEEP IN MIND, No porting on heads is considered "STOCK" ***
STOCK is what it is, same crappy airflow as when GM rolled(choked) it off the line in detriot or wherever. I'm not saying that it can't be done, I (as a drag racer) don't believe it until I see this one. I would LOATHE to be proven wrong!!! PLEASE DO IT!!!!

Good Luck Dude, I'ld love to see this "Dream" come true....

.....especially considering this IS a 305, not a 350!!!!!

I have read your time slips and your sig and it's still going to fall short. I did go off your best ET last year and that's where I came up with only .2 60ft not getting you there. Going by your spinning 14.315 and higher traps because of it if all the planets lined up you MAY see 13.334 (going with a .1 reduction in 60fts equating to a 1.5 reduction at the end approximation). I'm really not one for mathematics or hypothetical so why not run 13.007 or close until then it's a very respectable 13.9 sec 305 with a margin for improvement in current trim but not a near 12 sec ride.

READ PEOPLE!!! he expecting a mid 13 that makes to be something like a 13.4-13.6. hes got the trap speed to pull it off and if he drops his 60' froma 2.4 to a 1.9 that a .5 right there.
then maybe another .2-.3 on top of that so in the end i think with a good run he should be able to pull off a 13.3 run if not better. now u take this and do it all to a 350 and you have a low low low 13sec runs if not a 12.99x run. with some more tweaking a 12sec run for stock long block is very possible. now the condions of these motors also have alot to do with it and how they pull and if this guy can drive i am willing to bet my left nut that it is possible with the right setup.

No one with a 350 here has done it yet but a 305 will??(run 12s that is) Hmmm OK. Enough reading comprehension and what ifs. Run it and show us til then you are as fast as your fastest timeslip which was a 13.9 before "tweaking" that slowed him down on poor 60fts. Same applies to me too I'm a 13.521 L98 not a tick faster until I can prove it. Fair enough??

The rule of thumb for the 1/4 mile is that a .1 reduction in the 60ft time is worth .1-.2 reduction in 1/4 mile ET....everything else being the same.

I've personally seen this happen too many times to doubt it.


Case in point...

My old 383 Malibu ran a 14 flat with a nasty 2.4 60ft time.

The next time out I babied it to a 2.0 60ft ( no posi, street tires, stock rear suspension ) and ran a 13.45 ET

Wasn't a fluke either...

It ran 13.5 or better 4 times that night.....same temp / weather as the slower run, I just made an effort not to burn the tire(s) out of the hole.



My 2 cents FWIW

Dude, everyone KNOWS that tire spin is detrimental to E/T and MPH. You are basically over-stating the obvious. It is in my opinion, that he will not be able to get "out of the hole" quick enough without massive tirespin on stock rims. With this being said, now you have to go to slicks, OK? So, you need bigger rims, more than likely even mini-tubs to "Keep it Legal". Since a wider rim will undoubtedly pass the fenderwells when the tire is put on.

This results in more rotational mass at the rear-end, resulting in horsepower robbage and slower times, also creating more drag due to the larger surface area of the tires that contacts the pavement. I don't think that with a "Stock" setup block, the power will ever be great enough N/A to allow slicks of anytype to be used effectively without hurting top-end due to frictional drag.

Going with everything I know about drag racing, I just don't see how the numbers are gonna add up.

As I said before, I would love to see him do it though. It would be a great personal achivement and also give hope to the people like us, years ago, who have just received the joy of owning thier first F-body and want to HAUL A$$ on little $$$$$.

Best of luck

Yup ....I dug it up




.....I was in the quest for 12's ....willst only keeping the stock head castings ..... I wanted them worked ........ or possibly use the 081 ( 305 heads) ...and have them worked . Geese I never would have thought that 12's were conceivable with the stock cam , heads ( untouched except 1.6 rr ) and bottom end . I don't really care to " shave" my car down to an appropriate race weight . But I don't mind ditching the sway bar for a few passes ..... putting in V-6 springs in the rear .... or trying some drag radials out .

I was hopeing to acheive 12's with this setup
355 10:1 ( flattop fprged pistons)
zz4 camshaft
stock 083 or 081 head castings ( with screw in studs and 1.52 rr)
Edlebrock hiflo base and runners ( all openings smoothed )
3.73 gears ( GM 10 bolt )
22lb stock injectors ( psyionically cleaned , then flomatched )
stock driveshaft ( for now $$$$ )
235/60/15 Dayton tires ( nuffin special I know)



..... after reading your LONNNNNNNNG *** thread I am way more confident that it MIGHT be achievable .........please update this thread with how you have made out man !

There is a guy in IL with a '91 Z28 that gone 12's with 355 rebuild, stock aluminum L98 heads,LTR intake.

I am trying with the original iron heads,cam and bottom end. All original and never removed with 91K on the dial.

i thought this post might pop up again. It's seems that this 12.99 mark might be possible with enough time and money. and the car has every possible bolton with the car tuned correctly. only time will tell whos right............

just in response to another post on the first page, the 700R4's when built do not lose 20% through drivetrain loss. That is a ballpark figure for automatic transmissions in general. I know racers (hell my dad is one) that have used 700r4's said they don't lose anywhere near that when built. GM trannies are not slushboxes.

cheers all

Man...this thread will not die!

I am swapping in a T56 soon, but will hit the track before I do that. If I it won't run 12's on the 700R4- then hopefully it will do it on the T56.

has anyone seen the guy in hot rod with the slp perfomance firebird he is running 10.72s on a stock bottom end and yanks the wheels off the ground low and be hold he uses 125hp shot of nitrous but that is still good enough for 12's with out it. the only thing you have to do is make sure all the parts are compatible and work well together. it should be easily done with enough money. you'l;l have to at least swap out the cam though

anyone come close yet?

intake manifold super ram specificly setup...cam...full exhaust..i think he can do it im at 14.00 with my ALL STOCK L98 iroc not even free mods yet

Formula8 the t56 will kill you 60' my car ran 13.6s @99 all day then i put in the t56 and could only pull 14.0s @100 with 3:27 out back. good luck to ya.

thats driver depended and a lil bit on the gears too but mostly driver

the t56 gearing sux 2.66 first gear :uke::

In my 88 GTA 350 tpi notch bac with only 30,000 miles on the BONE stock motor at the time I did every possible free mod known to man, proms,k&n cold air,modified maf. ported plenum,air foil,fpregulator,open exhaust,no seats except drivers of coarse, no spare no front and rear sway bars, with BFG drag radials and bairly getting a chirp from my launch I went from stock no mods 14.65 to a 13.89. @ 3400lbs

Then I bolted on a set of Edelbrocks 2.02 performer heads and hit a 13.30 at 104 mph with every thing else the same as above.

I know one way you will hit your mark with everything internally stock!!! ITS CALLED N.O.S :lala:

Im sure it would be better if you had better than 3:27s with the t56, its not that i cant drive its just hard.

I have seen a 12.9 sec pass on a stock motor before. But unfortunatly it took a set of 28x10.5 mickeys, a 150 wet shot of nitrous, and his interior sitting on his grage floor. It was in an 86 IROC, 305 TPI with a 5 speed. He had a gear, minor bolt ons, a 1/4 tank of gas, and lauched that thing at 4,500 RPM.

However that combo did not stay together in one piece for long.

Basically, it is possible to run 12.99 on a stock long block. But is not possible with the other criteria you mention. And "anything is possible" is a bullsh*t phrase. Is it possible to run a thirdgen down the dragstrip in reverse and pull 12.99 times? NO. How about make a thirdgen weigh 400 lbs? Nope, not possible.

But here's the real question: "Is it possible for *** to microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?" -Homer

I'm going to have to say it is possible with criteria mentioned with an L98

I think a L1E L98 speed denisity car which is capable of very low 14's stock ,with all bolt-ons and good suspension/driving could hit a high 12 ....bolt on 305's(TPI 88 up) can hit high /mid 13's ...why coudn't a strong running L98 hit a high 12?...Its all in the launch...

There is no such thing as a strong running stock long block L98 in a trans am or camaro .
L98 = 225 horse = mid to high 14's
L98= 250 with bolt ons= high 13's
LS1= 290 horse = mid to low 13's
LS1= 325 with bolt ons 12.90's
The L98 car would need at least 100 more rear wheel horse power

If someone were to stall the L98 car up high to launch strong out of first gear the cars (torque and horsepower) would just fall flat on its face and out of breathe after 4500 rpms the power just isnt there !! Even If the motor was spunn to 8000rpm's it still would not produce some meraculous amount of power.. not with out a charger or nos

i second that dual cats option 240hp stock :-) it really really helps my quarter....i have a guy on this board who barely pulls on me...edelbrock manifold...edelbrock runners, ported tb and plenium....headers, cat back exhaust...cam...and he has his sinlge cat on his L98 and he didnt take me by much...and his best time in quarter is my best... 14.2

Pony, if your car is stock then he should WASTE you no problem. That upgraded intake will give him a big advantage. He's obviously got some problems if he can't knock down at least a high 13 with that setup.

L98'S were 240hp there last couple of years..plus bolt-ons would be a solid 30-40hp gain at least...plus another 20-30lbs of torque...with good traction in a lighter thirdgen..i.e 1LE formula/IROC I think a 12.9 is possible... All in the launch,and the L98 can launch with the best of them...when done right of course.
You wouldn't want to stall a TPI much pass 2500 anyway....you want to come out around peak torque..2700-3200...

"That is assuming no aero-drag,perfect lauch,no wind, perfect tem,perfect tuning,etc."

Anything is possible, but I think you'll pull all your hair out before you get there. You said, "assuming no aero-drag" how are you going to accompish that. If you can thats 35 less hp you need to find

If you can do it, your the man :hail: :rockon:
If you can't, Ain't no shame in it

just out of curiosity are you saying completely stock heads or just stock castings?? And two there's no criteria for the intake correct??

Two ways to go about this. First and the probably cheaper.

MiniRam
Full rear suspension
Full front suspension incl. tubular k-member.
Racing brakes
15's with slicks and skinnies
And start pulling all the weight you can out of the car.
1.6 Rockers
All the motor bolt on's you can find.

Second would be adding the port job to the heads, with gasket matching, and 2.02 valves ect.

Now is this expensive, yes, is it going to reach your goal, probably.

If a LS1 can run a 11.60 on a stock motor with long tubes and a lid, then I can get you to a 12.99 If you're interested shoot me a PM and I can detail it further.

Chris

Direct from Car Craft, May 2003 article . These numbers are rated horsepower from factory:

1985:
Camaro-215 hp, 305 TPI
Firebird-205 hp, 305 TPI (more restrictive air cleaner)
-No five speed manual

1986:
Camaro: Detuned to 195 hp, tamer cam
Firebird: Detuned to 190 hp, tamer cam, different air cleaner
(Note: Unfortunately, this is my car )

1987:
TPI 350 L98 introduced, hydraulic roller cams introduced
Camaro: 220 hp, 215 w/ 305 TPI five speed, 205 w/ 305 auto
Firebird: 210 hp

1988:
Camaro: 225 hp(cam change)
Firebird: 220 hp(cam change, air cleaner)
305: 220 hp with five speed

1989:
New exhaust w/ twin-cats, both cars up to 240 hp
305 five-speed 225 hp

1990:
MAF switches to MAP, 245 hp

1991-92:
No changes for remainder of third-gen's

This is quite an interesting article, it lists just about every mod that you have performed to get from factory 14's to mid 13's, then low 13's, then 12's. Interestingly enough, listed under "Breaking into the 12's" is cam change and head swap. Everything up till then is just rearend, tuning, air cleaner, plenum, afpr, exhaust, underdrive pulleys, runners, headers, rr arms, stall converter.

Also shows a picture reading "Nick Fusco of Long Island, New York, has owned his '89 Formula 350 since it was new, and he's been steadily upgrading its performance almost as long. By gradually making changes and testing the results, Nick managed to go from 14.90s all the way down to the mid-11s using the original, factory-assembled short-block. Today, Nick's Firebird turns in consistent 10.70s on nitrous, still running the original, unrebuilt short-block and an upgraded 700-R4 trans. " So, you have to think he was close to 12's before cam or head swap.

One other thing to remember is track location. Obviously, as mentioned before, elevation, weather factors, track condition, etc. make BIG differences in ET's. My father picked up 2-3 tenths just from our local track here in Canada to a track in Minnesota(from a 10.5-10.6 to 10.2-10.3 if memory serves me correct).

Personally, I think it is very possible, depending on what limitations you set for your project. So far from what I've been able to tell, your only limits are stock heads, cam, bottom end, no gutted interior. Don't believe the crap that tons of people put out when they talk about their "friend that ran 13.8 bone stock back 10 years ago", and all that bunk. Time has a funny way of fuzzing out small details like engine rebuilds and the like

Plenty of places to lose weight without gutting interior, all exhaust, suspension, intake, PROM tuning, traction, transmission, ignition mods you can handle. Plus, if you want to go this route, you can always do the race-day tricks to lose that extra tenth, like icing down intake, little gas in tank, etc. Personally, I know guys that use all those tricks to get their 15.5 car to 15.3, and I just don't understand why. But, I do have to say that I think you might have to try some of these things to hit the 12's.

Basically, what it comes down to, is that if you have a day at the track with good conditions and good traction, if you can get the car to hook, and if you play with a few things on race-day, it's very possible.

-Dustin

(PS Once you hit 12's, go the sleeper route. Throw some off-badging on the car, dirty it up a bit, and they'll never know what hit them)

It won't happen. For starters the RPM range for tuned ports is like 2500 to 4500 or there abouts. Tuned ports really drop of about 5000. Your major limitation is the cam and heads.Do a little with these and it will help out unbelievably

I read about Nick Fusco awhile back in an issue of High Performance Pontiac...he stripped a ton of weight out of the car with it weighing around 3000-3100 or so,it has a superram,vette heads with some bowl blending an a decent size cam from slp...
Pulls the front wheels of the ground and hits around 114 or so in the traps....not bad.

You know everyone rips the heads and cam on the 350 TPI...and they are not great ..but if you look on the LT1 specs they are very close to each other...the real diffrence being the intakes really...
The TPI would have a torque advantage over the LT1 and if the car was setup to take advantage of that,on a good day on a good track I think it's possible,with the right combo of mods...you might only trap 103/104 mph but its enough with traction...I say very possibe if you use slicks...which I know is a little bit much for a rather stock 350 ...but it would prove the point.

Well I spent a couple of hours going through stacks of old TPI engine build ups to see what would be the closest engine build up to hit the 12.99 mark.

Popular Hot Rodding 1997 Novembers issue has a Project "Hard Rock Camaro" 3rd gen TPI build up.


Every one can draw their own opinions and conclusions, I am just trying to see my self how far or close off the mark a stock long block falls short of the glory. They give brief descriptions of why they use specific parts and I am going to pass this on the best I can straight from the mag.


- Keith Black hypereutectic pistons- for their heat reduction properties.
-Total SealsMoly Maxx top ring plasma type and a gapless second ring.
- Balanced all of the rods upgraded all of the bolts with high strength ones.
- 6 1/4" Fluidamper- when you change the rods the piston weight the stock dampner is no longer in tune with the motor.
-TPI's ZZ9 cam shaft hydraulic roller emissions legal - 212 intake/226 exhaust with .483 lift on intake and .520 exhaust the numbers change to .515 and ..555 with the use of 1.6 rockers.
-Comp Cams roller timing chain w/ stock hydraulic rollers topped off the short block.
-1988-1998 corvette L98 aluminum head castings. wich were CNC ported and then the stock1.94int and 1.5 exh were machined to except 2.0int and 1.6 exh. Comp cams dual valve springs
-1.6 roller rocker arms.
-Fel pro 1010 head gasket
-TPI's big mouth intake and runners.
-52 mm throttle body.
-1 5/8 headers ceramic coated into a pair of Random technologies catalytic converters and a 3 inch single in dual out muffler
-TCI's 12 inch street fighter torque converter.
-Stock 7 5/8 10 bolt rear with 3.42 gears limited slip.
-Harwood fiberglass hood for a small front weight reduction.
-Mickey Thompson ET Drag slicks

First pass netted a 12.99@ 105.54
second pass 12.95@ 105.96

12.9s @ 105 or so is not impressive with those mods...
The headers are to small,plus how well was the chip tuned? How much work did the heads have...was the ZZ9 degreed right?
Could go with 3.73's too...
That should be a mid low 12 second setup...with traction of course.

A good running L98 with a full exhaust and a good stall should hit at least 100 mph..with more bolt-ons to go....a 105 trap is not impressive with heads/cam on a L98..

you dont have to be impressed.

the heads had a full race port job they also used mickey thompson slicks for traction there in the list.

The article does go on to say that they do knock off a few more tenths by doing a little more tweaking.

when your car gets into the high 12's arena your talking LS1 power..

add a 100 shot of nos
and it will

if you dont want to i do not think it will happen

I hope I am wrong
later and


gb

The times are not impressive because this is when EFI was still completely new to the aftermarket. The knowlege of EFI tuning was close to nothing, let alone proper TPI setups.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: I have decided to sell the car due to other priorities. Until it sells, I will try to hit this goal. Stay tuned....

Hmmm... maybe I ought to try to hit this.

Would a valve spring swap be permitted, the stockers have 186k miles on them...

Yeah, rebuild the heads for fresh springs. Maybe port them out. Thats still stock right. How about milling them down some to gain some compression and using premium fuel and good tuned computor. That is still stock, just modified to gain more with what you got. Just an idea. Super chevy mag (I think) did some tuning on L98 86 corvette with minor bolt ons like exhaust and picked up 30 horsepower.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help but laugh at that.

"My engine is stock! I just modified it a bit."

(For the record I do understand what you're saying, using stock parts. It just sounds funny.)

LOL yeah I like the sound of that! But you know, if you modify stock parts, it is still stock. Only aftermarket stuff means modified in my book.

Well sure is funny how every ones book is different. Pretty soon people will be saying as long as I am using the factory block and the factory head castings its still stock.

if you look back the original poster stated stock heads and cam. The way they came from the factory. If you do head work there not stock anymore.

You must never have been to Chicago. Everything here is "stock". lol

Point is, he doesn't want to crack open his motor.

There's a lot that CAN be done with "stock" parts... like the LT1 hot cam... from GM... does that make it stock?

Vortec heads... from GM... does that make it stock?

get my point? He's doing this without cracking open the motor any further than the intake and exhaust manifolds, which I think is admirable.

If you take everything out, except one seat, take off the doors and hatch, and get all of the bolt-ons, then yeah.. I would say it is possible.

It could see it being the slightest bit possible without taking the doors and the hatch off, but it is going to take a lot of work and ideas.