FruityOne

I can't stand it. Last year before the transmission blew I had it tested and it failed. Well, one week later the cat-converter clogged all to hell and I replaced it. Before I could get it re-tested the transmission blew.

Fast foward. New transmission is in. I put new plugs, cap/rotor in. The wires should still be good as they were replaced last year in May.

My Hydrocarbons are 2.22 (max 0.80), and the CO emissions are 12.2 (max 15.0).

What do you think is the culprit? Could the TPS, or O2 sensor be causing these massive hydrocarbon problems? Vacume leak somewhere in the system?

FruityOne

I've been reading up on how the EGR system may be causing it.

I'm so fed up with problems that I'm ready to take it to a shop!

CraZ-28

I'd say replace your O2 sensor next. That will help, but it may not be enough. Also, if nothing else works, take your runners off and clean the egr tubes out. It sounds strange but I have seen it work so far on 2 cars to get them past emissions. Good luck.

FruityOne

Did I mention I hate emissions?

Can running rich kill a cat-converter? Like I said, the cat was put on sometime in May of last year.

Last year the car had a new Cat-converter, and O2 sensor put on it. Could the O2 sensor be bad already? Anyway to test?

If I need a new one should I just go AC Delco, or are there better choices.

Rick King

Yes running rich can kill the cat. there is some great advice on tunning to pass emissons test at www.hotrodder.com
Up here in MN when we had emmision testing you where able to file for a permit that made your car emmissons excempt. it cost about 380 bucks , you had to take your car in and then the tester would look at your papers, and check the engine block number. It better be the correct block or you would be up a creek without a paddle. some thong to check into
later and
GB

rick

nick418

Man that sucks....... Thank *** my dad owns a garage i do my own emssion test on my cars and my camaro... If u lived in Mass i could deff pass u. I can bypass it with ease

grafx

Try replacing the PCV valve, Check your coolant temp sensor, and change your oil just before you go get the test. Also try running 92 octane before you go get the test again, and put in a new air filter. Do all of this just before getting the test to increase your chances of passing.

grafx

Also has the car past before with those TBI heads you have on it?? And just out of curiousity is your car an original TPI or TBI??


Was checking out your videos too, what type of exhause set-up do you have on your car?? Sounds pretty sweet!! Oh and by the way I love your sisters narating LOL LOL LMAO

FruityOne

The car was originally a TPI 350 (it is a real GTA). But the original motor had a cracked block.

A reman motor was purchased. I wasn't aware of the time about casting numbers, only that the motor they were selling was listed as a replacement for F-bodies with the engine code "8". So I bought it. They have some small *** cam in it. 194/206 duration @ .050, .384".399 lift on a 117LSA.

This is in conjunction with the TBI heads. So yeah, it sucks.

Grafx, you should read the post a bit more. I already stated I tested with 93 octane in the tank and 3 bottles of Heat (Methyl Alchohol)

Yes, I have replaced the PCV valve, did that before the test. new plugs, cap/rotor.

grafx

sorry missed that part. Has the car pasted before with the new engine?? Read my edit above to last post!!

FruityOne

No, the car never passed emissions before. Last year the cat was bad when I went in. About one week later it clogged up bad and I replaced it with a Cat-Co cat.

Now I'm possibly looking at replacing the cat yet AGAIN. This sucks.

BTW, its a flowmaster 80 series muffler on a 3" cat-back. Everything else is stock.

grafx

maybe those heads are bad!! Does your car burn oil at all??

FruityOne

Nope. The engine is a fresh long block. Doesn't burn oil, doesn't leak, doesn't do anything a new build shouldn't.

SMURFN' Z28

iTrader: (2)

MAF? if thats shot, you would be running rich. Do you have an AFPR? couldnt you back the pressure off a bit?

3.8TransAM

Bill,

MAF good?

Coolant temp sensor ok?

Those are 2 biggies right there one skewed either way and will run riuch enuff to fail but not notice during driving....


Is your timing set correctly? U did unplug the connector when it was set last?

later
Jeremy

PS might be heading that way this weekend so keep in touch

FruityOne

Its the original MAF sensor. Maybe I should have grabbed it off of the 87 TA tim had. There was an extra MAF in there.

Wouldn't I throw a SES light if the MAF was dead? I occasionally get a MAF burn off relay light (code 34), I tracked it to the connector and its pretty frayed, time for a junkyard harness trip? Or can I get a new connector to splice in? A new one would make me happy.

9D1BURD

Funny, did someone else tell you it could be the MAF? I seem to remember that being tossed around a bit

Anyways, i dont have an extra MAF, i am using it on my motor.

I say we hit the yards up for a new piece of harness.

And who knows how far off the timing could be.

Let me know when, and we will go look for a harness.

HiTech5

iTrader: (4)

FruityOne - I used to live in Elk Grove and my car passed the emissions test with a pretty healthy 383.

This is what I did to pass:
1. Used 87 octane.
2. Retarded ignition timing to a base of 4 degrees.
3. Pulled out fuel. If you have an adjustable regulator, set it to 42 psi with the vacuum pulled.
4. Drive the car around for about an hour. The cat needs to be hot in order for it to burn off fuel being passed through the exhaust.
5. Test the car in Schaumburg. I did not pass the first time in Elk Grove.
6. Once you have done the above, take the car to Marks Service Center on Higgins and have him hook his sniffer in the exhaust. You cannot afford to fail a third time.

Good luck!

www.geocities.com/dzperf

FruityOne

Don't they use the same standards? So it wouldn't matter where I go.

I don't have an AFPR so adjusting the FP isn't going to happen.

If I test in Schaumberg it WILL be a third time. The car has tested twice already. One more time is the last.

It has about $230 towards the $450 limit if nessesary.

eric305TPI

do you have all of the reading or just the HC and CO?

camaro_60181

Only the HC and CO because they don't test for anything else here in IL

eric305TPI

Darn that is what I was afraid of. Is it a loaded test or just an idle test? It's hard to tell what is going on without the O2 readings. I would look for a condition that would cause a miss or raw/unburned fuel to make it to the exhaust. Also a fresh oil change can do wonders due to the vapors being pulled through the PCV system. I'm leaning toward a miss due to the repeated cat failure.

FruityOne

We'll find out tomorow. I always assumed the timing was set correctly because it was installed by a shop I trust.

However, the timing was WAY off. Like 15* BTDC or higher. I think they set it with the ESC connected. We disconected it, set the timing to 6* then hooke the ESC back up.

Seemed to idle smoother and run better (duh!). Replaced cap/rotor.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

I've been following your topic, and since it has well over 200 views, it looks like a lot of others are curious about knowing what happens too, lol. Don't forget to report back to us to let us know how you do.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

The increased timing will cause the hc's to go up due to lean misfires. Some dry gas in the tank will help lower the hc's also.

FruityOne

And we plugged the EGR for the time being. I don't drive the car much (cause its illegal....) so it won't be much if an issue.

I got scared so bad last night. I was coming home and a Grand Marquis followed me for 10 miles on the way back. I thought he was a unmarked police car. Scared the crap out of me. But he turned off and I breathed a sigh of relief.

The plates are suspended, and the sticker is only out of date by almost 9 months! So if a cop pulls up behind me I'm screwed.

I don't drive the car right now for JUST this reason. Only when I'm doing emissions related stuff.

FruityOne

Well, whatever we did. It really made things worse.

We disconnected the ESC coming from the passenger side, near the heater box (tan/black wire). Started the car, then adjusted the timing till it was 6* BTDC.

Tighened up the distributor, checked the timing again. Then reconnected the ESC. Took it for a ride and it felt fine.

Went into the emissions station and when I came out I was 3x worse then the last time!

HC is now 6.09!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CO was higher at 14.2 (limit 15.0).

The graph is spiky as hell. Its all over the place.

9D1BURD

:werd:

FruityOne

First Test
HC: 2.67 (limit 0.80)
CO: 11.2 (limit 15.0)

Second Test
HC: 2.22
CO: 12.2

Third Test
HC: 6.09
CO: 14.2

The car has a new cat, the engine is brand new. New cap/rotor/plugs/wires. The TPS is sitting around .540v.

The O2 sensor was new as of last year. I suppose I'll buy a new one just because. But damn, whats up?

camaro_60181

WTF!!!!!!!

I hate emissions!!!!!! Did you get the car nice and hot???


Looks like your computer is dumping to much fuel

jconrad

Mine passed when I had the timing retard just a few degrees.

3.8TransAM

Bill

What Inj. do u have on the car?

should be 22# GM unles syou've replaced them... take a ohm meter and check each inj. stock ones should be 17 ohm give or take a little .... ford SVO like i run would be about 12ohm range.

test them all , they should come out to the same ohm reading, but u may spot a couple at 6 or 10 and u start wondering real quick if they are bad :-)

IF u find anything lke that pull the plenum up and loosen up the runners to pull the fuel rail up and hit the key to on to prime the system ands check for leaks
later
Jeremy

FruityOne

I have never replaced the injectors. So unless the previous owner did then they are stock.

THey also look like the stock injectors too.

Joe, looks like I need that cable dave has. mind if I borrow it?

I'm gonna run it around a little and do some data logging on a laptop.

camaro_60181

gotta ask dave....

3.8TransAM

check the injectors
later
Jeremy

FruityOne

Could the fuel pressure regulator have taken a dump on me?

UmmaGumma

Have you replaced the o2 sensor yet? Replacing mine sent my Hydrocarbons to .02.

PLANT PROTECTION

iTrader: (6)

I had a very spiky graph when I had leaky stock injectors. Your CO numbers may be passing, but they are still very high. I would definately point my finger at crap stock GM injectors. Swap them out for some bosch type SVO or Accel injectors.

FruityOne

I'm working on new injectors right now. As soon as Jeremy gets back to me about those SVO 24# injectors that he said were mine.

Red Devil

Test your injectors first. The SVO ones probably won't help unless you can adjust your fp. Have you tested to see if you are running in open or closed loop yet? Can you get a copy of the test results?

camaro_60181

It is running in closed loop when it gets warm. I had a snap on scanner hooked up to the car to verify.

FruityOne

Let me put it this way.

I need new injectors period. These injectors are the original ones for the car, and probably need a cleaning anyways. $100 for cleaning ($12/injector + shipping), or $100 for some <10,000mile SVO 24# injectors. An Adjustable fuel pressure regulator is usefull anyways.

Captain C

You might want to check to make sure the right chip is in the car. Also, if you have a miss that you can't find, it's probably the harmonic balancer. They will barely pass smog, if at all if you have a bad one.

Another item, I rebuilt my engine and put heavy forged pistons in it in place of the light weight hypereutectics and I passed smog by 1 PPM instead of 60 PPM!!!!! I swapped the 6.25" Fluidamper for a 7.25" Fluidamper and the car runs waaaaay better. I have had balancers go bad on two 305's and they both ran lousy until I replaced them (used the 6.25 Fluidamper on them).

FruityOne

A balancer can cause a car to fail emissions? I would assume this is because the rubber has begun to crack, and allow the balancer to slip. Changing what appears to be the timing.

I'll probably do the balancer when I do the cam/heads/intake/exhaust in a month or so.

In any case, I have new vacume hoses, new EGR, new O2, new injectors (SVO 24#'ers), AFPR, and I need to get a $6E chip burned with a 24# constant so I'm not running rich.

Soo much to do.

FruityOne

All right, this is what I've got going on. And its driving me NUTS. So its process of elimination right now.

I first test my car about 1 year ago, and it failed pretty bad. First Test. The readings were 2.67 and 11.2 for HC and CO respectively.

The 2nd test I replaced the catalytic converter because it had clogged up and the car blew 2.22 and a 12.2 for HC and CO. Better, and slightly worse at the same time.

Now, on the third test we did the cap/rotor and reset the timing to stock with the ESC dissconnected. We set it to 8* BTDC. Then we reconnected the ESC and checked it again. It idled steadily right where we set it. However when I took it in for testing it blew 6.09 for the HC's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 6.09 Over 3 times worse than my original test, and 6x more than the limit!!!!

So I was like WTF? Well, I needed to do it so I did the MAF, O2, EGR, vacume tubing, checked TPS voltage. The results were good and bad. The car just blew a 3.44 on HC's, wich is better than before. But the CO's doubled to 30!!!!

I'm thinking I have timing issues. Either the distributor, or the harmonic balancer is shot. I'm leaning towards the harmonic balancer because the rubber is cracked, and even found places with chunks of rubber missing.

Does anyone have anything else I should check? I mean, it can't be the EGR, O2, MAF, Cat-converter, Plugs, Wires, Cap, or Rotor. And the motor is a fresh rebuild with only 2,000 miles on it!!! Oil is good, but is almost due for a change because it sat over the winter.

Anyone? I'm at wits end.

Red Devil

Alright, let me cut and paste from another thread:

HC - Hydrocarbons, unburnt fuel. This is a sign of incomplte combustion, excessivly rich condition or a dead cylinder or two, bad pcv, too hot a plug, bad air filter, etc.

CO - Carbon Monoxide, typically an indicator of a slightly to excessive rich condition (not enough O2 to combine), can be due to high fp, bad air filter, too cold a plug, advanced timing, etc.

NOx - Oxides of Nitrogen, excessive combustion temps, typically a function of power.

CO2, H2O, O2, N2 etc, other gases from typical combustion and emissions components.


It looks like a combo of running rich and maybe timing. None too sure how a balncer would throw you off unless it was completely fragged. The fluid ones may have been dry or seized.
You really need to diagnose that fuel system. Also check your fpr to make sure the diaphram isn't toast. I'm really leaning heavy for the fuel system now. Your chart was all over and spikey as all hell. Get that checked and I'd lay money you will find your prob.

FruityOne

Red devil, do you have a suggest on where to start with the fuel system?

I don't the the AFPR is at fault here. When we put on the adjustable fuel pressure regulator the diaphram was still very soft and pliable. The rubber didn't look cracked, or feel stiff at all.

Fuel pressure is at a steady 38psi when the vacume line is unplugged. We checked it several times after install to make sure it was correctly set.

Now, I am running 24# injectors, and I haven't yet gotten a chip in there that has the injector constant changed to 24. Its still the stock chip.

I haven't changed the fuel filter, so I guess that'll be something I'll do in the next week. I also noticed something later today when I was looking at the engine bay. The passenger side breather that goes from the valve cover to the throttle body had come off sometime during the drive. I wonder if it was off during the emissions test as well. if so then the throttle body had a major vacumme leak there during the test. Now it seems wrong, but last time when that very same hose cracked and started sucking outside air I ran pretty damn rich. Getting a new hose fixed the rich issue then.

I was told that if the harmonic damper was bad then the timing mark could have slipped in relation t the actual positon of the crank. So if you set the timing to 8* with a bad damper then it really isn't 8*, but something else.

theonly350z28

Here in New York we dont even test for emisions read like you guys do down in cal. I would move to another state it might be cheaper

theonly350z28

Here in New York we dont even test for emisions read like you guys do down in cal. I would move to another state it might be cheaper

Red Devil

Just re-read the thread, and never saw any mention of you testing your CTS.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...t=cts+AND+test

and to review
HC CO
2.67 11.2
2.22 12.2 cat, o2, plugs, cap, rotor, pcv
6.09 14.2 timing
3.44 30 new vac hoses, egr, o2, injectors, afpr, MAF

correct?