MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

i was originally planning on building a vortec headed 355 with high flow tpi. im looking for around 400hp(at least over 300 at the wheels) lately ive been looking at these trick flow top end kits and they seem like a good value with heads cam and timing set for only $1600 or so. i was looking at the 420hp 395ftlb kit, but i know that the numbers will be different with a tpi intake. hopefully more torque and i would be happy with only 400 hp.

-which top end would give me better power?

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

is there anyway you could give a link to see what your talking about?

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
-that is the link for the trickflow top end kit i want.

the vortec heads i was talking about are just the gmpp small valve cast iron vortecs good to .520 lift. and i no i will need a different tpi base for the vortecs, but im gonna buy a new base anyway.

-thanks

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

From what I've read you're going to have a tough time hitting 400hp with untouched Vortec heads and a stockish TPI. I'm going to be using AFR 180cc heads and I'm praying I get close to 400hp with that, a cam, ported base, ported SLP runners, ported plenum, 10.5:1 compression.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

have you read the article in GM high tech performance where they get 418hp and 486ftlb out of a 355 with acccel tpi parts? they were bragging about how easy it was although in that particular article they didnt say how they built the motor(heads, cam, etc...) they will go indepth later, i dont think 400 is too hard out of a 355.(as long as it is well tuned)

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

228/234 is too big for almost any TPI. I have a hot cam and the ported TFS in mine and it would not be as good w/out an aftermarket base. I had a HSR with the Hot cam and I liked it better. If you are set on that combo, go with a HSR. If you can live with a smaller cam, go with tpi.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

i would like to stay with tpi just to keep with the sleeper theme. i want it to look 100% stock but run low 12's. if i am better off with the vortecs and a different cam i will go that route. even if i do get the aluminum tfs heads i will paint them so they look stock, haha

camarodarrell

To get a tpi'd intake 355 to run low 12's, you're going to need some sticky tires, definately not sleeper anymore.

That article with the 418 hp tpi, I think that's the one where they did a LOT of machine work to set the motor up just right. Not worth all that money on the machine work when you could spend the money elsewhere to go faster.

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

uummm......... for low 12s with a 355.

TPIS base, AS&M or TPIS runners, and either the TFS heads or AFR 180cc. for a 355 the 180cc's should be better. all that with a healthy cam. that MIGHT get you there. it really depends on how much money your willing to spend.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

400HP aint going to get you into the low 12's low 13's yes

jmiller

I'm running a 383 with 190cc AFRs, TPIS base, TPIS large tubes, 10.5 comp, TPIS ZZ9 cam, MAF, and single exguast ( CAL SMOG LEGAL)
I don't know the end result HP, but the car easily ran a 13.22 at 106mph with street tires and a stock 700R4 and TC.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

12's can happen. It just takes a good amount of knowledge of the TPI car. It will require all aftermarket parts, an aggerssive cam without too much intake, Hot cam's are the most you should probably use, an excellent launch, good rear gears, and lots of suspension mods to minimize the tire spin you get with a tpi. People on here are running 12's with a 355 tpi set up.

Demon355

iTrader: (1)

I'll be doing the same setup with Vortec heads and intake for my 355. I already have a Hotcam, 1.5 rockers (might switch to 1.6), flat top pistons, forged crank etc. With the Etec heads and matching base (with some minor cleaning/port work), mix that with my current mods and I'm sure I'd break into the 12's with some tires and a converter. Tell me how your progress is coming, I won't have my heads/base until over the winter months.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

thanks for all your input guys. i dont see why 400hp wouldnt get me low 12's because a stock ls1 camaro with 320hp will run low 13's and high 12's with suspension work and sticky tires. plus 4th gens have a good 200-300 lbs on us thirdgens. i would expect low 12's with drag radials or even slick and a good suspension set up and a very good launch. im not saying low 12's will be easy or done on street tires, but is possible.

unfortunately it will be a while as i have to save up for everything on a crappy part time job so it will be a long project.

- also jmiller, a 13.22 at 106 is definetly mid to low 12's with a tpi intake system. tpi cars are known for low mph's and a 106 mph is good for mid 12's in any car as long as you can hook it up.
get some sticky tires and say hello to the 12's for me. it may be a while till i see them for myself

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Just remember that for the price of a set of aluminum heads, a new cam and new intake, you could buy a used LS1 and auto tranny, maybe T56. The next engine I do will be a LSx.

Demon355

iTrader: (1)

As cool as that might be to others by having an LS1, it doesn't have the cool factor from me.

What cam would you suggest by looking at my mods and what I plan on doing with heads/base (keeping TPI) ? I was told that some of the XFI cams would work.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

i just dont see your car hitting low 12's without more power
----------
take member trevor jacek, 406 with about 450 hp, probuilt TH350 with a 4200! stall, and 3.73 gears only runs high 12's

GregWestphal

iTrader: (1)

I hit 12.47 and a few 12.5's with 291 rwhp (about 365 hp at the engine), so 400 engine hp will easily net you low 12's. I was spinning off the line with only a 1.8 60' time on my runs. This is with a 355 TPI, TF heads, LT4 HOT cam, heavily ported SLP runners and Edel. base, Hooker 2055 headers, 3" cat-back, 3.42 gears, and a 2200 stall converter.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

gregwestphal- i can see that you can actually drive your car and i would love to see some time slips.

- my theory is that just because you have 450 hp and run a 13 doesnt mean that thats all your car has. that means you need to learn how to drive ur car better. id like to see some mph's for those low 13 and high 12 runs

GregWestphal

iTrader: (1)

Here's my best run:

http://users.erols.com/gcwestph/timeslip12.47.jpg

and here's the dyno run a few months before the dragstrip run:

http://users.erols.com/gcwestph/dynorun17.jpg

I have over 170k miles on the car, adding several thousand miles a year (daily driver) and about 40k miles on the engine. I agree that power doesn't always equal low et's or high mph.

bjankuski

Low 12's with my car and slightly more then 400 HP. Low 12's are possible with 400 HP.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

The vortec 355 buildup in GMHTP is not a "budget" buildup, not even close. The heads are worked big time, the entire intake is ported, port-matched and extrude-honed, and they are running 10.95:1 compression or something like that. I was really unhappy with the way the entire article was presented, because at first glance it seemed like they were saying "wow, slap on TPIS intake parts and vortec heads and you get 416hp!!!" That isn't at all what took place.

Having said that....Greg, what intake are you running? Those are some crazy fast times for the dyno results you have. Keep in mind that not all dynos are made equal; my best time this past summer (granted, it was in 100 degree heat, but my 60ft was a tenth slower at 1.9) was 12.52 @111 and I was pushing 346hp at the wheels with less psi than what I pushed at the track.

As for the LS1 comparison, do some reading; they were WAY underrated, with most pounding out over 300rwhp in box stock form, which puts them closer to the 350-360hp crank range (which is about where I think you'll be if you use untouched vortec castings and unported/unmatched TPIS parts).

Good luck with it and let us know what kind of times you do end up seeing.

GregWestphal

iTrader: (1)

I had heavily ported SLP runners (plenum ported to match) and Edelbrock base. The track I run at is maybe 100 feet above sea level, and it was 55 degrees outside that evening. All of my mods are at:

http://users.erols.com/gcwestph/IROC.html

I've since bolted up an HSR and am making more top-end power, maxing out the MAF earlier and going way lean due to not enough PE. I was going to hit the dyno and the track last month or this month, but a girl drove her parent's full-size van in front of me and I t-boned it in the side. The car is almost back from surgery (probably the end of next week), so I still plan on going to the dyno, but I'm not sure if the track will still be open...

Shagwell

For good info on vortec/TPI combo's, you should look into Mike Crew's thread on his 383, or search about 1Bad91Z's 355. With the proper combination, you could fairly easily run low 12's with a modded TPI and vortecs.

Dans87GTA ran 13.70 @ 97 1.8 60ft with mildly pocket ported stock L98 heads, ported stock intake pieces and a mild cam. He then ran 13.70 @ 101 2.0 60ft with the HSR. Fresh trans, new converter and tq arm, ran 13.40 The car has +.030 kb flat top pistons, stock rods, stock crank, stock heads, 3.27 gears, 255/50 fulda street tires, stock 87 350 MAF prom. The only "tuning" is resetting minimum idle to around 700 for the cam. - so 12's with decent vortec heads...with the right cam and the proper complimenting parts(exhaust/suspension) it's do-able.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

thanks for all the replies guys, i was originally planning a drag only car with drag springs and shocks but now i want a street macine that can take corners as well, so mid 12's i would be happy with

i just want something that i can drive on the street that looks stock and eats stock ls1 camaros

3.8TransAM

If you read the articles and the magazine, the shop owner had health issues and that is the reason for the delays and short articles and then the dyno 2 pager.

They also said the entire story will get told in a future issue as will the teardown and retest with a coated engine.

Furthermore, they didnt do anything more to that engine than they said in the theory/guideline build article that appeared first.


As far as 12's with a TPI goes. Hook, hook, hook, hook.

That will make a stock 350 car about a mid to low high 13 sec car. A decent set of heads and a nice cam with the proper TUNING should easily net u the rest

Proper tuning on a stock 350 can get you 225+ at the wheels with about 315ft lbs, I did this with a hot car. Same car would trap 97-98mph on a day with heat index over 105

later
Jeremy

IdroolforTPI

Dude are you serious? What crack pipe are you smoking from that a STOCK 350 TPI junkbox runs 13's properly tuned? I want one. Maybe if i smoke your pipe my stone stock mortgage will go from 900 a month to 350 a month.

225 at the wheels? Stock 5.0 Mustangs, the 2nd worse car in the world, did that right out of the factory with no tuning. Put down the pipe, walk over to the nearest 20 story balcony and step off

3rdgenZ

iTrader: (1)

now that he's gone. i totaly agree with you 3.8TransAM. ive seen many TPI 350 do that, most of those were 5 speeds. a guy that lives not to far from me tunes TPIs. ive actualy seen a 305 Lb9 with a 700r4 2.23 gears, cat back, and his tune run 13.7s

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

My 3.07 geared 4 speed TPI 5.7 turd went 13.93@99.5 with a slipping clutch...first time ever at the track with the car, and nothing but cheap mods...underdrive crank pulley, tb bypass, de-screened maf, airfoil, and K&N w/open lid. I'm 100% sure it would have went quicker with a good clutch, but next time to the track it'll have a 700R4 in it...

FWIW IdroolforTPI, "stock" 5.0 Mustangs only made (at best) roughly 175 to the wheels, 220 at the crank...

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

back to the topic of head selection has anyone used these brodix 180cc aluminum heads?
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

they seem like a good value and i know brodix is a good company, and 180cc's is about spot on for the setup i want.

what do u guys think?

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

Brodix is definitely a nice head. That looks like a killer deal...

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

It is a nice deal, but if you're going to spend $1000+ on a set of heads why not throw in a couple hundred more and go with the AFRs? Out of the box they outflow the Brodix by a decent amount.

I'm just biased, I have a new set of AFR 180cc eliminators just waiting to be installed....

shaggy56

Does anyone ave any solid info that AFR heads will outperform Brodix heads? The latest CHP show that the AFRs slightly beat out the Trickflows and had larger valves on top of that. The flow numbers were ridiculously different between the two heads but they almost performed identically.

Demon355

iTrader: (1)

It seems to me that CHP only tests parts to an extent and sometimes it's not even to the full potential of the part in question. Using only 1.5 rockers, restrictive intakes/carbs etc. If they are going to test heads like these AFR's and Brodix they should at least test them with a range of parts that all gear heads would use to get the most out of what they are testing so that it shows the rest of us what to expect. That's my 2 cents. I was talking about this last night with a fellow TGO member and we both agree that CHP has been lacking in the full testing department.

I do agree however AFR has great out of the box performance. Haven't heard much about Brodix though...

shaggy56

I do realize that every head has its intended application but the comparison in the CHP article seemed like a fairly even baseline between the Trickflows and the AFRs. They used identical street intakes and an indentical hot street cam and the engine even had identical paint chips and parts so it seemed pretty even. Unless they completely fibbed on the article thats another story but im not much into conspiracy theories. I do know that AFR heads in the test had lighter 2.055 intake valves and the Trickflows had 2.02. I also know from data obtained that the Trickflow heads have a minimum cross section of 1.93 while the AFRs have something like a 1.98 minimum cross section.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

either way i go i would have the heads ported and port matched to the intake and the intake ported as well, so out of the box performance isnt the main factor.

camarodarrell

Which heads flowed better and performed better? By how much?

Stingray69

http://www.airflowresearch.com/eliminator.php

I would buy the AFR's, BBC, or SBC, in a heartbeat, for any application, over anyone else's heads, for out of the box performance. Period.

Porting costs, to do it RIGHT, to an already killer flowing head. Spend the money up front, you will not regret it.

I bought Canfield CNC 315's for my boat's 502, only because of the ease of getting them factory hard anodized for corrosion prevention in lake water. If I could have ordered AFR's and got the anodizing from them, I would have ordered their heads...

shaggy56

Im starting to believe flow numbers dont mean anything. Has anyone compared any of the newer Brodix (IK series), Dart (Pro 1s), and high port/large port bowtie vortec GM and Edelbrock E-tec heads compared to AFRs. In the CHP article the AFR heads have a larger port lighter valvetrain advantage over the Trickflow heads and the results are not far off. Granted the Trickflows are a basic run of the mill 2.02 1.6 street head but what does that say for the other heads I mentioned.

AFR Int Exh
0.200 143 115
0.300 202 162
0.400 246 196
0.500 278 217
0.550 278 220
Trickflow
0.200 125 86.5
0.300 173.6 116.7
0.400 215 144
0.500 239 162
0.600 243 175

Stingray69

I don't believe much of anything I read, but I DO think that flow numbers of heads means EVERYTHNG, if those numbers are accurate.

Any custom cam dude worth his money asks 'what do the heads flow', first thing.

Demon355

iTrader: (1)

The 170cc ETEC heads I'll be getting flow 240 on the intake side and 180 on the exhaust. Pretty good for a 170cc head if you ask me...

shaggy56

You can plot the numbers yourself from August and December CHP. I actually cut and pasted the numbers from the articles into Excel so Im 100% sure its accurate. Whether CHP fibbed on the results then thats another story and a whole other thread.

Gunner823

iTrader: (2)

The TF heads' increased port velocity explains the performance down low being slightly better than the AFR head with that setup; however I don't know that I would write off 25 horsepower as "not much difference" up top when you're talking about near equal pricing. I won't begin to claim I can quantify a horsepower per flow# relation but to me, there's a pretty clear winner in that graph, and it's the same head that has better flow numbers.

Grim Reaper

I haven't read the article but I've noticed a few articles in the past where CHP (and other mags) select combos that favor certain parts over others (depending if it's a comparison of heads, intakes or exhausts). I often fely they are doing this because one of the suppliers is a major advertiser.

It's very easy to make a lesser head perform close to a better head IF the cam, exhaust & intake setup is such that it is optimal (maximum) for the lesser head but less than optimal for the better head. Usually it's in the choice of cam; where had they used a bigger cam then the better head would have creamed the lesser head. In fact, the lesser head could even be "handicapped" because it's flow characteristics versus the cam.

Putting great heads on a bone stock TPI will make it not perform to it's full potential. It would make the great head look like it's not performing all the much better than the stock heads and truly make the flow numbers appear incorrect or misleading...when the real misleading part is the choice of intake, cam & exhaust. Now, do the same thing with a decent solid roller and watch the stock TPI perform poorly while the better head combo shines.

It's called "skewing" the results.

shaggy56

Please read the article before responding because the engine, cam, and intake amongst other parts were identical and it was a carbed engine. In the article you can almost be 100% sure that the engine is the same one from the paint chips the block had and the identical balancer and timing cover.

What does this have to do with the comparing AFR heads to other heads I mentioned? From what i understand High ports and vortec style ports are an advantage over standard ports.

Grim Reaper

And re-read my point.

shaggy56

Ok please elaborate how they skewed the results. The Trickflow heads have an intended usage so the comparison is valid. If we were comparing a different head for whatever application be it racing/street then we could compare a Dart Pro1 or any high port performance head. The AFR head had two advantages over the trickflow heads so yes I can see how that is skewed.

Grim Reaper

Back to the original post about potential 1/4 mile times of a 400 HP TPI. TPIs are a torque oriented intake system but not a high HP system as they rapidly run out of breath. A 400 HP TPI is making a TON of torque, especially if you compare it to a 400 HP Miniram.

I will guarantee that a 400 HP TPI will be quicker than a 400 HP Miniram system. Why? The 400 HP Miniram isn't making anywhere near the torque of the TPI.

With the right cam etc, it is easy to get the Miniram to produce the same torque as the 400 HP TPI, but I guarantee the Miniram will be producing a lot more HP (and reving a lot higher). At that point, I would guarantee the Miniram will beat the 400 HP TPI.

Moral of the story? You can't just consider HP, you also need to consider torque. (As well, you cannot just consider torque without considering HP). You need to consider both.

And lastly, you need to consider the car's setup (suspension, tranny, gears etc). They too are a major factor. What will be optimal for the TPI system will not be optimal for the Miniram. The large amount of low-end torque makes launching a TPI more critical (and difficult) than the Miniram.

Got to go. Have fun guys.

MaNiAk86

iTrader: (2)

im glad to hear all the responses guys and it seems to me that for a tpi 355 headflow #'s arent all that important as the tpi intake will not flow the same as the carbed intake it is tested with. i am pretty sure i will go with the brodix, as i want aluminum for the wieght factor and they are the cheapest i have found. if i can find some other aluminum heads for cheaper i will look into those as well.

- and i understand that just because i have 400 hp doesnt mean i will automatically run 12's. I have been around drag racing my whole life and i know that to get a good run everything has to be perfect from the launch to the stripe. but i would be happy if i were running 13's and trappin 106 cause i know that 106 is capable of 12's with a better 60'.

shaggy56

Im sure the Brodix heads will do everything you expect and more.