Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yes, and companies like TPIS and AS&M and SLP got the ball rolling with TPI upgrades, but it wasnt until just recently when Jerrywho discovered the short-runner secret that our TPI builds really started to take off and make more than 350 RWHP. Thats the learning phase we're still in.

I think your prices are a little high, but I'm out of the loop since I have the luxury of dealing wholesale.
However, how come you consider head porting such a huge expense? There's nothing special about porting an SBC head and it should even cost less than porting LSx heads. $2000 should include the cost of new Trick Flow heads plus the porting. AFR heads would be about $2500. And $2000 for the intake, runners, throttle body, including the cost of cutting, welding, and porting would be about right. The TPI fuel rails dont need to be replaced.

Also, for an LSx swap there is modifying of the engine bay & k-member. And dont you have to swap the dash as well, as the thirdgen gauges are not compatible? Thats extra cost, too. You got an EXTREMELY good deal if you paid less than $2000 to put your LSx engine into your car.

KingsHustleLA

Alright Cool I Will Do That, Thanks Vincent I Appreciate The Help.

KingsHustleLA

That Comment Wasn't At You I've Just Seen More & More LS 3rd Gens On The Street & Those Foos Talk Bad About Anything That's Not LS. I've Been In Mike's 3rd Gen When His LS Was Stock & That Thing Hauled Serious *** For Being Stock & Gets Good Gas Mileage Too. But My Thing Is I Want To Keep My Iroc Original & Stick With The TPI. I Got Nothing Against LT/LS Swaps Though I Think They're Bad ***! Like I Said It's All GM To Me.

lawdog49

iTrader: (6)

OK I am also not sure where this post went, but I spent 30 minutes reading through all of it. I too want to build a strong street TPI engine. I have an LS motor sitting next to my car in the garage on an engine stand, and had intended to swap it in. even bought lots of the needed swap parts. But now I think I nice strong 350 under my TPI is what I want to do. I already have SLP runners (supposedly ported with plenum) and some other mods on this tired 305. But it's fun to drive, a fresh 350 with the right cam and heads will only make it more fun, and stay true to the decade. Vega said it best. Kevin and Don and others, I like the way you guys think and hopefully can get some advice from you guys on building my street TPI engine.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Proof....it's all around you, Bill's car and most of the others are full dressed complete cars weighing in at close to 3800# with the driver.
My own car tips the scales at 3780 with me in it track ready.
I would be amazed if yours even broke 3400. (every 100# worth a tenth is the standard)
There are about 6 cars I can think of that are at 380 or better HP level and all tip the scales at 35-3800#.

My DD as it is, made the lastest cruise to SD and back and averaged
23+ MPG.
Oh yes, and does so on 87 octane.

You would see this if you weren't so closed minded.

I have already stated what my engine consists of, and it does not have a ton of money in it, just the standard build costs.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

All I know is that if you stay TPI, You can buy the major parts for half the price. The people on TGO is always swapping out parts for new ones. Most of the time its the intake manifold(SR,MR,HSR Runners) because they end up going with a LSX or Carb.

Kevin Vandevenne

iTrader: (3)

I picked up a fully ported/matched set of edelbrock lower manifold, SLP runners, and a plenum for under $400.

ASE doc

Aside from the cylinder heads, which have gone up in price since I purchased mine for about $1,200, every other part used in my build has come down. The SLP headers that I paid $650 for, were $495 new just the next year. All of the high flow intake parts that I paid $1,100 for are now available used for less than half that. My point was, that if you want to build a quality, long lasting high performance car, you have to be ready to do whatever is best. That can mean digging deep into your pockets.

From what I hear the OP saying, he doesn't want an SLP or siamesed runners. He wants to stay with stock looking long tubes. Look at my sig and if you have any questions, just PM me. I can give you details on how I put my build together.

Z28FAST1

I went to summit racing and used their current prices.

Price on porting heads is based on one of your member’s builds:
Heads from Summit $2000 + $1000 in porting = $3,000



Price of working on the upper intake manifold(cut, weld, port, etc) is an additional $600 min according to a previous post. I’m guessing another $200 for the plenum.

Intake kit from Summit $2000 + $800 in porting = $2,800 or almost $5,000 in just heads and intake.

I'm basing this off the average consumer w/a summit catalog. I know you can find good deals online as I found my long block LS1 w/ 0 mile for $2000 cash. However I wouldn't buy ported heads or manifolds from a kid off the internet that took a dremel to them just to save some cash.


Proof IS all around me. How does a heavier 4th gen with only bolt-ons (350-360rwhp) run and trap faster than the “400~rwhp” SoCal guys at the same track/same day?

Take two of my buddies for example, both 1998 LS1’s with headers, exhaust, SLP lids, and tune(no cam, no heads, factory intake). Both ran 12.6-7’s at 109-110mph in the same bad DA.

http://youtu.be/FYEX12D6BXk


Not closes minded, just basing my observations on what I’ve seen at the track.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

What intake kit cost $2000? You are tripping. What heads cost $2000? You must be referring to LSX stuff.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You dont need 2000 dollar heads and then 1000 for porting. Thats absurd and not necessary for these builds. I have 3k into my big 245cc race heads that have a custom cnc port profile on top of a as cast 220cnc head casting that will make 800 hp. Thats about as top of the line as you will find in a 23 deg sbc head.

All you need is hand finished pro-filers in the 195-210 cc range from the likes of chad speier or dr j's to handle the 400-450 whp range with the 195's being better for smaller motors or less rpm in the 375-415 whp range. These heads are 1600 built with components custom selected for your application.
Afr's have worked well too and they are 1260-1500 depending where you get them and if you get the upgrade spring or not. These are the 195's but 210's could work on larger motors

These heads are limited by tpi bases being restricted. The big money you will spend on these builds will be in cutting welding and porting the base and runners. These are critical in power development because they need to be large enough and short enough to pull rpm.

Now if you had an old set of trickflows darts or whatever head with a less developed outdated cast portshape, then a complete head overhaul port job may go 1000. However ive seen some shops do minor work to ports and pick up 30-40 cfm for under 500 bucks. So it all depends.

ASE doc

AFR Street Eliminators with street porting, ready to go, $1,519 from Summit. They flow 280cfm at .550 lift. Perfect for a larger street performance hyd roller cam. Take these, the $400 intake parts mentioned above, a well built bottom end using the OP's original 350 roller block and forged internals( about 1,500-1,800 at the machine shop) an EEPROM ECM that can be dialed in using tunerpro. Add cam and valvetrain parts, plus misc. pieces to put it all together. You've got a 12 second car for around $6,000.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...m-tb-base.html

Any visual pics of the fabrication / Welding work added to the original manufacture piece ?
And it's cost ?

Vincent stated $1k for a good porting program on top of the price of some afr or trick flows right ?

That alone is how much ?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Again, selective observing, I was there the same day and trapped 110.71/12.45 @ 3780#
Are you going to tell us you think a 4th gen weighs more than that?

You only see what you want everybody to believe about TPI's
(ie. closed mind)

ASE doc

You don't need to port heads that come out of the box flowing 280cfm. Not to make 400whp(480-500 fwhp). If you want more flow, the 210 eliminators run 300cfm at .700 for a few dollars more and then there are the 230 race eliminators at $2,100 for serious flow.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

I guess Vincent's set up didn't work too well .

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Get your Info straight. I bought my TFS heads in 2002 while you were still in Elementry school. I had the SR while your brother was in Elementry school back in 1997. So in short I didn't buy all my parts at once. What are you and your brother trying to prove? You guys do what you like and we do what we like. Let it be!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I guess Vincent's set up didn't work too well . "

I guess that would depend on what his goals are. If it was to be "top dog" than no. However he is taking steps in the right direction to be on top.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My 99 trans am with full power everything ac and leather is 3686 lbs with my 180 lb **** inside. On zr1 17" wheels, 275 tires front 315 rears lol. They aint that heavy. With no interior except driver seat i was 3460.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

I agree with you allan, vincent is “headed” the right way, so is everyone else . It’s a sport but people get offended here, and you shouldn’t.
This guys main concern was to give the ls1 3g guys competition, ever since they came around, (only few) and that’s cool. You can fight new modern tech with old tech as long as the money is being spent.. but whats cheaper. ?? new kids on the block taking over the advantages getting faster in a shorter time period.
When some one evaluates the value of an strong engine do they base it on the what was spent in only a specific time period (09-2011) or on the complete project (97-12)? You spent this amount on your heads then , then this amount on your intake , then this on the rest, but ill give you $400 for everything.? Doesn’t seem right huh?
I like the elementary story, good math, that means your older and im half your age ; fact. Now calculate this : I was in grade school when you were building your h/c tpi. I bought my tpi iroc played with it for a bit and took a quick shortcut few years later * stuck a (stock fbody ls1) did my own work (budget build) and bamm now im at the performance level of your h/c/i. no hatred here I think That’s freaking ahsum,
Hell of a run I gave you noh, Or was my car slow ?

you called me out vince and youll keep doing it over and over again.
Keep doing whatever you were doing porting Heads that flow good out of the box and I'll just kick it here doing what ever I'm doing .

ASE doc

Obviously this thread has turned into a pissing match between the LS1 guys and the TPI guys. I apologize for my part in that. This has almost nothing to do with the basis of this thread since the OP's question was simply:"what can I expect from a built TPI". He isn't interested in an LS1 or even a siamesed or SLP TPI. But in a stock looking, long tube runner TPI. He is going the same route I did with my build back in 99. He wants to keep the TPI stock looking and squeeze the max power he can from it. I can testify absolutely that if he does it right, he will not be disappointed with the results.

BTW, completely off topic, Vincent, what TFS heads did you buy in 2002?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

At that time they only offered 2 types, the standard and the Twisted Wedge. I have the standard which is the exact same as the Kenney Duckwilder series.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I bought my 89 formula 350 back in late 91early 92 from the org owner and I started throwing parts at it very soon after.. 1st was the complete SLP kit with some "extras"
Back when the TFS heads were the "twisted wedge" I bought a set of the very 1st ones.
In my car with SLP cold air, SLP big cam, SLP underdrive crank pully, 1.6 roller rockers Ported edl-b base SLP runers plenum, my own T-body, SLP headers, TOTL, some trans work/SLP shift kit/ converter, 411 gears and stock interior/weight the car went mid/lower 12s.. Also had big-n-littls with M&H tires
This was in 93-5?? I cant remember exactly when I started with the heads. I still have them tho!
If I would have had better trans parts I would have been a 11sec car because I had 2 fully lift out of the gas then wait 4 the shift an nail it again.
And all of this was with a STOCK chip, which im still using today! (yes it needs tuned)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

When did the AFR 190's come out? They werent too much better than trickflow I didnt think but my buddy used them on a bored over L98 with stealth ram and 280xfi cam and would have been high 11's ET's, around 350's whp, maybe 360...if it wasnt for valvefloat. Those old heads can make good power when cammed up but they are not comparable to the latest castings out there flowing 280+ out the box.

I just remember some decent running LPE 219/Superam type setups using 190 heads. With TPI they would still work alright since the bases were restrictive.

Now with the heavily ported stuff or First TPI, the heads can get better and use their potential

Z28FAST1

I'm curious if the average person that can turn a wrench is capable of "cutting welding and porting the base and runners" as you have described.

I was under the impression that there is only a few people that can actually perform this mod. Seems like you have to know the right person to reach this power potential of the TPI which would explain the large number of less than impressive TPI numbers on this board.


The times posted were when the DA was 3000, I think you ran 13's maybe high 12's that time. Guess you swapped out that motor since then?

Lots of "potential" on this section.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The majority of people that were into these cars back in the 90's have moved on, and some have left the racing scene altogether, but when the focus was Tuned Port Injection there were some very innovative racers out there that were running tens and elevens. I remember this run like it was yesterday because I met up with him in the pits afterward over by e-town. No power adder, just more cubic inch displacement (don't recall how much more), but he was using the stock Tuned Port Injection system. Don't remember which heads, nor the actual cam specs, but I do remember it having a substantial amount of duration...

http://challengevideos.com/event5/JD...n11.28.115.mpg

ASE doc

That is a very impressive run. I don't know what horsepower number he was making but he must have at least been making some serious torque.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Anyone that can weld aluminum should beable to build up enough material for you to port but you are right, not many take it to that level and why you may not see many high hp builds.

Lastly regarding your childish "potential" remark... You obviously are here to troll the thread and good information shared in here obviously wont get thru your ls plated skull but i will give you the needed information to validate my underlined comment.

That car made 330 whp at 5700 rpm before goin into valve float. I have the graph. The rate of climb based on the curve so far would extrapolate to 350-360 whp by 6200 or so. But regardless of what it would make, with 330 whp on a 70 degs night at royal purple raceway the car went 12.2 at 112 on a 1.7's 60. Car has been 1.6's but it just wasnt doin it that night. Now earlier in the year when temps are in the 40's on a good night it was an 11 sec car. Reason i know this is because of years of drag racing data an more importantly my car went 12.7's the same night at 107. On those 40 deg nights when DA was -500 and greater, i went 12.31 at 109.6. Thats 4 tenths and 2 mph on weather alone. That other car would do 11's id bet my life on it and i'm not a gambling man.

Z28FAST1

I was just curious about how easy it was to transform stock L98 to 400+hp. Seems to be a lot of internet myths thrown around and nobody talked about prices or extensive modifications for high HP builds. I found the thread really informative and found some crafty builds.

Not only LS, I like modern technology, that's all. When you have 400+rwhp 5.0 GT's, 600+rwhp stock GT500's and GTR's running 9's with bolt-ons and E85 its hard to deny the drawbacks of older tech.

Funny how the "potential" remark struck a nerve and I'm glad you didn't bet your life on it.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

No you're not, you are just here to knock anything that relates to TPI.

godreject

iTrader: (1)

"I was under the impression that there is only a few people that can actually perform this mod. Seems like you have to know the right person to reach this power potential of the TPI which would explain the large number of less than impressive TPI numbers on this board."

The information to on how to port and weld these intakes is no secret. The info is shared all over the boards and in the local Socal meets by certain people. I ported my own intake and runners by following the board and other members advice so yes i can turn a wrench.

I don't know why you are so strung up on how many high horsepower TPI builds there are. That is relative, first not everyone can afford such cost, or either don't have the luxury to do so. Next not everyone wants to compete and be top alpha male, I have the info, and maybe the money to do a high horsepower TPI build and yet choose not to, shame on me for currently porting a set of 113's, but sometimes there is so some satisfaction of doing things yourself.


Lots of "potential" on this section.[/quote]

ASE doc

godreject, there is nothing wrong what you're doing. I have had alot of fun porting 113 heads and TPI base, then dropping in a healthy cam and making some serious tire smoke. The fact that you can increase power output 100hp using factory heads and all of the factory intake parts is an indication of TPI's potential.

KingsHustleLA

Yup You're Right On Point, I Wanted An LS1 Or LQ9 At 1st But Now That Everyone Is Doing Them & There's Not A Lot Of Nice TPI's Around I Did A Lot Of Thinking And 90 Iroc-Z's Are Pretty Rare & Unique. Also Quiet A Few People Told Me This, What Makes A Iroc-Z An Iroc-Z Is The TPI, Without That Engine It's Just Not As Much Of An Iroc, And I Understand What They Mean By That. So That's What Made Me Say F*** It! I'd Rather Have A 370-400RWHP TPI Than A 370+ RWHP LS Engine Even If It Costs Me More In The Long Run, In 20 Years When Irocs Are Classics Which One Is Going To Be More Admired Then? An Iroc With A Swapped Out Motor Or An Iroc That Made It 40 Years And Still Has The Stock Set Up All Hooked Up? Don't Get Me Wrong I Love LS 3rd Gens Just As Much & No Disrespect At All, I'm Just Explaining Why I Decided To Stick With The TPI. I Think With $3,500 More Into What I Got Now Vs. $3,500+ For An LS Swap I Can Be Around 370RWHP With My TPI Rather Than Be At About 310RWHP With An LS1 As Well, My Car Already Has A Few Mods. Plus The Guy Who Rebuilt The 350 In My Car Said My Block Came Out Of A Yukon Or Something And Said It's A 4 Bolt. So I Need To Check That Out And Confirm It But If That's True Than I'm Straight.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

If that's true about your block came out of a Yukon, it's a 9.3 compression short block. It has dish pistion. But thats ok. With a thin head gasket (.028 GM), we can get it up to 9.8 compression and still make 370whp. If I remember right, you wanted to use a HSR. If so, you can go with the same set up as Burnout91z. He has a 9.8 compression(stock L98 Short Block), HSR, 280XFI Cam, AFR's 195 and Dyno Don's exhaust systems. It made 397whp.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

HSR is not TPI I'd go FIRST TPI if you want a out the box setup that should do good hp numbers compared to the current aftermarket stuff unported.

ASE doc

Or go with a setup like mine with TPIS(AS&M) large tube runners and ported stock plenum on a ported high flow base and really look factory while making excellent power.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

All excellent suggestions. I just siamesed my stock TPI system and am very happy w/the results...

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

A good find would be a Accel Base. It flows better than the Edelbrock.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I have always heard about this, does anyone have back to back track/ dyno runs in which that was the only thing changed??
I'd like to see/know what the gains are!!!!

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Is this what you mean by siamesed? I did this way back in the day and had zero gain. It probably could have benifitted from a tune however. With the original base on it, I had the o2 mv set to .860 at wot using the afpr. When I installed the ported base, the o2 went to .900 at the lower rpm range to .780 in the upper. 60' dropped just a bit, and there may have been maybe a 1/2 mph gain, e.t.'d the same, but I didn't care for it and put the original back on.



Had to have been in 03 or 04, still had stock manifolds!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I've always heard that it wasn't much of a gain.
Now wonder if you had heads an headers if the gain would have been more or still the same..

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure it would still ET the same, just a lower 60', higher mph. Just shifts the powerband slightly higher imo, and like I said, a tune would help somewhat as well. Certainly not earth shattering results, but something to try if you want to keep the stock runners and have a spare base lying around you wouldn't mind ruining. If I knew where that piece was, I'd offer it up here and let someone work some more magic on it and maybe try it on a higher hp combo.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

My results are coming, although mine are coming with the turbo, though. I still need to weld up a few pinholes in the headers that I made, as well as coat them, so I don't mind making a pass naturally aspirated. I already have the tune for it saved...

That is honestly all it is supposed to do, as it is still pulling air through the stock throttle body in my application so there is no real gain per se, just more usable RPM. Acceleration Enrichment and Spark Advance both need to be tweaked in the prom to maximize the modification. With my stock setup RPM wouldn't budge much past 4500-RPM at wide open throttle on the highway (NA), now it shoots up well above that even w/out the turbo, which was my whole intention for siamesing the setup from the getgo. I uploaded and edited these pictures in photobucket about a minute ago, and made them all smaller and brighter but photobucket takes awhile to accept the edit, so bear with the size of some of the pictures for the time being. My only goal was RPM by doing this, though...

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Speaking of old tech, your LS1 is getting long in the tooth now. If you want to stay current, its time to upgrade to an LS3 or LS7 now, isnt it? You wouldnt want to get left behind working on old technology when there are so much more potential and less cost in new techonology, right?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Madmax did this mod way back when, about 6 or more years ago. If I remember right it was a 20 RWHP gain on his father's car. You'll have to search and find it.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

yes my lil 346ci ls1 will eventually get "outdated" its been in there since 09 and sits the same . intake, exhaust and dyno tuned * student budget build. it hasn't touched the 100k miles, so its still running strong. Has the heart of a lion, does very well on gas mileage, reliable, its light, good on the twisties, does very well against street cars, and fun to drive because it looks good. < main concern

it may be time to spend the big bucks like you guys have over the years, i was telling Vincent i would add headers and nice cam once its time for a tear down but he said it does perfectly fine. One of the so cal members has shown interest to buy my drop out, but well shall see.

your right, ls2 and ls3 drop ins are nice, just another shortcut to have in mind.

ASE doc

One big advantage to the aluminum LSXs is the weight. We are often looking for ways to cut down on mass and an all aluminum engine takes quite a bit of poundage off right where it does the most good. There is always the aluminum Dart SHP or Bow Tie blocks but at $5,500 for the bare block, it's a little steep to shave 100lbs.

As for me right now I am madly in love with my beasty. A little fine tuning on the fuel and timing curves and she is running so good. This car makes me giddy like a little kid.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"As for me right now I am madly in love with my beasty. A little fine tuning on the fuel and timing curves and she is running so good. This car makes me giddy like a little kid"

I feel the same way about me car. It's really running good. I will install my latest intake system and that will probably be it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's what we all say lol...

ASE doc

My good friend. I haven't heard anything new about your latest project in a little while now. Knowing your work, I would imagine it's looking fabulous. Can't wait to see it finished and some dyno results. I am of course subscribed to your thread on the subject.