NiG

Hello guys

I know that most of you already heard me talking about this, and were willing to help me. But I come here again with some updates about this problem that is DRIVING ME CRAZY. I feel like I wanna trash the whole car!
PLEASE HELP

THE PROBLEM

My 1989 GTA has steering/handling issues:

1) we tried to adjust the wheel alignment many times, but no matter what, it tends to go to the right. Also, steering wheel stays a bit and is more prone to turn to right.

2) during high speed cornering, car is not firm. It kinda swivels/rolls. It remains stick to the ground, but feels not firm. Dunno how to express this.

3) this is very ANNOYING. When doing some parking maneuver (low speed then, 1mph) with the steering wheel totally rotated, front wheels kinda "jump"/"skips" the ground in small steps. I made this picture and a video:




the result is that the car shakes, and the tires continuously screeches. Not nice.

WONDERBAR

I installed the wonderbar as you suggested.



The nice part is: yeah, car feels more firm and precise. Really. That's great for the price.

The bad and unexpected outcomes are:

A) the (3) described before now happens ALWAYS. When I normally run, the tires tend to screech. If the ground is wet (raining or after), you cant do any corner without feeling one of the tire slipping over the blacktop. Feels so dangerous.

B) when you turn the wheels and then leave the steering wheel, it almost does NOT return to the zero position. The car keeps going to left/right even if you lift the hands from the steering wheel. WTF !!!!


QUESTIONS

1) does the (3) happen to you?

2) what can it be?

3) does it exist a test to check if the chassis is bended somewhere?

4) same question about the suspensions?

GUYS YOU GOTTA HELP ME PLEASE

THANKSS!!!!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Throwing some guesses out:

1) Did you have a four-wheel alignment." Thrust angle could be an issue.

3) The problem is common with thirdgens. I've learned not to lock the wheels when turning tightly or the car will push/jump.

Though you're running a Wonderbar, have you checked for cracking in the steering box area?

The following is from How to Tune and Modify your 1982-1998 Camaro by Jason Scott:

"The problem stems from high forces transmitted from the steering box to the chassis, especially under low-speed cornering, such as when maneuvering around a shopping mall parking lot. Fat performance tires present a great deal of resistance at low speeds, which imparts considerable stress into the steering system, and ultimately attempts to rip the steering box from its mounting surface--especially during "full-lock" turns, where steering torque is greatest. Over time, these forces weaken the chassis surface around the steering box and can result in torn metal.

"Whether the chassis is weakened or torn at the steering box, the result is the same--steering actions are delayed while the chassis flexes, leading to unresponsive and erratic steering. Ironically, though the damage stems from low-speed steering, the resulting problem is far more serious at high speeds than low ones.

"It is possible to repair the damaged area, though the best solution is to avoid the problem in the first place by installing a brace that reinforces the steering box mounting area."

JamesC

daferris

iTrader: (8)

From your photo looks like the drag link is too high
The flats on the bottom of center link (just below where the inner tie rid attaches MUST be same side to side measure from c/l of the front lower control arm bushing bolt. Should be about 17 mm from flat to the bolt with steering centered its a bitch to measure with tie rods on but if one side higher than other it will do just what your car is doing.

redneckjoe

i know you've had numerous problems, bad mechanic work, parts installed wrong, etc.
i think its time you shop for a professional mechanic that can also do a correct alignment.
probably well worth the money at this stage?

paulo57509

The relay rod (center link) height is fixed on the steering gear side. The idler arm side is adjustable by raising or lowering the idler arm.



What happens when the relay rod is not the same height end-to-end is the right side wheel gets turned in or out (at the tie rod), depending on if the relay rod is high or low.

It can be compensated for by adjusting the tie rod(s) so both wheels are straight but now there's a geometry problem when turning a corner.



Special tool J-33093 is nothing more than a flat bar and a magnet that makes taking measurements easier.

The idler arm/relay rod height must be correct before making any other alignment adjustments.

NiG

I first went to a professional workshop in wheel alignment (dunno english name). They used some laser+computer to check all the four wheels. Unfortunately, since the steering wheel had some play, we didnt find the zero position. So after the procedure, the car was goint toward right. Tried it again this time manually. Car got better, but still not straight.

Then I tried 2 more times with another mechanic, manually, adjusting the rods. Impossible to get the car straight anyway

Than I installed the wonderbar, and the rest is what I wrote in this topic :'(

Really? A friend of mine told me it doesnt happen on its firebird. This weekend im going to drive a camaro to see.

thanks for the quote. We checked multiple times without removing the steering box. Everything seems solid. Do you think I should remove it and check deeply?

---

Yeah I would go to a professional mechanic if I was sure that someone could fix everything perfectly.

So do I have to check if the center link is horizontal? Using a level???

What do I have to do to check some mismatch, unleveled pieces/chassis parts?

thanks!!!

FirebirdUSX

You sure nothing is bent down there?
Also you sure the mechanic is a mechanic?You spent a ton of money and sweat on something that should be simple....these cars should be simple and cheap to maintain but for some reason you managed to get it expensive.Something is wrong with the diagnostic....the problems you have should not be possible after so much time spent in a shop.

naf

iTrader: (7)

lack of return is most likely either bad ball joints or lack of adequate caster.

failure to find center is play in the steering parts or the box out of adjustment.

I'd check all of the tie rods and centerlink for play, or replace them.

If the box shows play, I would bench adjust the box, rebuild it if leaking before putting it back on the alignment rack.

If you don't know how old the ball joints are, I'd replace them.

On the rack you can see how easily the wheels turn. A failed ball joint may spin freely with the wheel off the ground but drag when loaded.

NiG

this is absolutely true. I would have NEVER thought it was so complicated owning a car of these, wtf...

there's no diagnostic at all... nobody knows what's happening on my goddamn car. It just runs very bad. Not precise, rolls, wheels slip... Im not a mechanic at all but i have to figure myself what the **** is going on :'(


Ball joints are brand new and heavy duty. Bushings new too. I had them installed by my mechanic some months ago. Then I had the ball joint failure resulted in a partly datached wheel.

steering box brand new. Steering parts are original but have no play at all. Solid.

tie rods end brand new. Centerlink original but seems super solid.

steering box brand new, no leaking. Just tightened it a little bit to decrease play.

brand new :'(

what is the rack? You mean lift the car and then try to turn the wheels?


THANKS GUYS

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Nick , what you need to do is to go the the "suspension & chassis" subforum here (your in "transmissions & drivetrain" now) and search out a post where SofaKingdom posted up the right specs for aligning our cars . I remember he put up a chart with the proper specs that will make these cars handle correctly and from what he said the listed specs at the alignment shops are not exactly right , so you need to find his post or maybe send him a message and ask if he'll post the right specs here for you .

NiG

Thanks man, ill do that!

I've just talk with the mechanic. He sai "the wonderbar surelly has changed the parameters of the chassis. Just redo the wheels alignment procedure and see".

thanks!

FirebirdUSX

sorry for off topic but this reminds me when I got my car.The ignition cylinder had a broken key inside so I took it out to a guy specialized in this .He was really good since he knew it was from an american car just by looking at it.After 4 hours I returned and the guy was red and tired from working on it...his professional aura and bs went away real fast

That was kinda like what happened to you...the mechanic moved from "professional mechanic" to "buddy who is trying to do guesswork"...congrats you defeated your mechanic with your car

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Um , Nick , buddy , you've missed the point of my post entirely !

You can get 100 alignments from 100 different shops and if they all use the "factory" settings listed on their databases for our cars , your car still ain't gonna roll right !

Now , cause you seem like a nice person , I've gone and done your homework for you here . I went and dug up the post where SofaKingdom posted the REAL WORLD specifications that our cars need to be adjusted to . For some reason , it appears the factory went for settings that in the real world just don't work well for our cars , for reasons beyond my understanding of how the intricacies of alignment settings affect road manners . When a guy who DOES know these cars inside and out like SofaKingdom does goes and posts that the factory settings are wrong and gives the right settings , I will go with his real world knowledge due to all he's learned in the 30+ years these cars have been around .

Ok , So , you take these specs to the alignment shop and ask that your car be set to them . After you've done so , let me know how well it worked out for you .

PS , where I use the little * asterisk symbol , that's supposed to be "Degrees" . Search as I might I can't find a Degrees symbol on this keyboard .

CASTER = L +4* , R +41/2*

CAMBER = L -1/2* , R -1*

TOE = IN .030" - .050"

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

Take this one °




BTW:
Living in Germany, my experience with wheel adjustments is quite similar.
Nobody told me about the idler arm adjustment being relevant to ANYTHING, so I slapped it in and had an adjustment.
Car still kinda pulls off into one direction and the steering wheel isn't straight.
I read about the importance shortly after all of that, so damn, I need to get back under my car and try to adjust the idler arm using a combination of nuts and rulers to figure out the right height someday.
And then get another alignment.
I, too, get the feeling my rear end sways a bit around certain corners and suspected it to be my LCA bushings or something, but now I see it may also be my idler arm's fault.


Also, noone seems to know about adjusting caster over here. All they ever do is horse around with the center link's and tie rod's bolts and sleeves, so I'll NEVER get a proper alignment, no matter what I do.
They don't even KNOW what an idler arm is. Quote: "That's all old tech. Nobody has that anymore." SO I'M LOOKING AT A F-ING MIRAGE HERE, THEN?!?
And don't expect any mechanic to get things done in a timely manner, lol. They don't get to work on these cars as often as we do and it even takes us hours to do simple stuff most of the time.


Thanks for the alignment data, though.

NiG

llooooooll

you're extremely genlte sir

I would write down that and use for the next alignment.

I finally did that. Went to a new mechanic for a new wheels alignment procedure. He was very confident he would fix everything. And so he did:
- he said the chassis is completely ok, not flexed nor bent
- rear wheels have a very little degree disalignment. It's normal.
- redo the front wheels alignment. He chosen "1987-1992 firebird" from the PC, but he said he left kinda 0° (zero degrees) the front wheels alignment.

Actually, now the car is ok!!! It goes straight, wheels dont scratch.

They still scratch in parking manouvers, but it seems physiological.

I'm still not 100% satisfied, but let's say is ok for now

Thanks to everybody !!