DJsyclone

I'm gonna leave the V6 in my car for now... according to Back to the Future II, in 2015 I can get a hover conversion and fly on the skyway.

1badTTA

Forgive my ignorance, but the 660 is the 2.8 liter chevy 60 degree engine correct? The only reason I know anything about these engines is because there is one in my '89 Buick Regal FWD that runs great and will never be modded because it wasn't ever in anyones mind a performance engine. It is however a very reliable car and it gets good mileage so I don't complain. The 3.1 was in my wife's Grand Am and it blew up (pretty sure it bent a valve from overreving when I stomped it and it downshifted) and it is the same engine other than displacement so I don't consider it a performance engine either.

Basically what I am saying is that it is quite possible to make power from a V6 but the 60 degree V6's really aren't a good platform for a performance engine.

I still LOVE the V6 3rd Gens and even the 305 and 350 TPI's as it allows me to surprise alot of unsuspecting ID10T's when I blow their doors off and then tell them I run 12's with a V6 that has fewer modifications than their V8.

Any size engine can make good power, but any engine can also be extremely inefficient also. I don't recomend trying to get every last horsepower out of a 60 degree V6 as it will cost more than anybody wants to spend, but if you think that it takes a V8 to make power then why are so many people getting 600HP out of the stock "109" block 3.8L Buick V6's (and around 800Lb/ft of torque). The sky is the limit with the Stage II and TA Performance blocks as they will handle from 1500-2500 horsepower and are still V6's.

Moral of the story is that if it wasn't designed to make power, it will cost you lots of money. If it was designed to make lots of power it will cost you lots of money up front!!!!

1991tealRSt-topGuy

ummmmm, that was my point too

never did i bash the 3.8...................

i think the secret of the 3.8 turbo from GN's and TTA's is out of the bag though

most people i know who are into cars and or owns an f-body or even mustang for that matter knows about the capabilities of it


the 3.8 is the exception to the rule

yes, you can be different, but dont expect to be fast

1991tealRSt-topGuy

$1000 and thats stating it liberally

614Streets

Yeah I bet you could "spool" him raven

I'll take on some ls1 this winter and get it on video being owned by my 2.8

614Streets

You say you have only $1000 in a v8 swap? Is that what your saying?

1991tealRSt-topGuy

not even $1000 (that was putting it liberally)

its an easy swap

show me a 660 with $1000 in it that can toast me, and you win

614Streets

Ive got more than a $1000 in my 2.8. Im out. **** my 355 has over ten thousand in it. Building on the cheap is not really my style but my 2.8 was built on a very very low budget probably right under 2500 dollors and it will walk your v8 up and down the block and win best of show.

dennis6

Let him put $1500 more in his V8 to match your 2500.

dennis6

The facts are 2.8,3.1,and 3.4 are not performance engines.
TPI 305's get as good gas mileage as the V6.
Carb 305's get same gas mileage when tuned.
TBI 305's get close.
TPI,LT1, and LS1 5.7 liters also get the same gas mileage.
Gas mileage is NOT a factor.

Cost...
305 can be had for nearly nothing.
Cooling system can be re used on the 3.1
New motor mounts
Used 700R4 150-350 dollars

Cost is irrelevant

Performance...
Stock - 170-220hp Tons of Torque
Nearly 500hp if built.

Performance is not a factor...

Now tell me why people want to build up the V6?

1badTTA

So why would someone want to build up a 305, makes just as little sence. Just as bad as a "performance 350" with stock smog heads. Timeslips talk, benchracers walk. The original post was about if a 16 year old kid should buy a 2.8L Camaro and if it would be a good car. Get back to the post and forget about the anemic V8's for a while.

AGood2.8

Performance?- Motor has dominated in Midget AND offroad stadium truck racing.



Why Build one?-Because even an LS1 can't match the lightweight and reared weight bais of a little 60* V6. Nothing can out corner, out slalom, or out brake a V6 car built to the hill.
Thank you, end of suject.

1badTTA

Get your terms correct, it is "built to the hilt"

and I couldn't care less, not " I could care less".

Don't make yourself out to be an itiot, speak correctly

1991tealRSt-topGuy

milled vortec heads $350
bigger cam $150
150 shot of NOS $500

wouldnt really need $1500 would i?

(although with $1500 i can finish my 383)

brobert

:hail: Thank *** someone has said this. Any of you v8 guys look at how the 60 degrees sit in the engine bay? Right behind the front wheels. You v8 guys can NEVER get this kind of weight transfer and handling. And 1bad the term is " I couldnt care less" as in im at the final point, i can not care less then i do now. ALso i dont know what an itiot is but correcting someones gramer makes you an idiot,Anyway no one ordered the spell check thanks any way

TechSmurf

And people wonder why I still reply in an obscene fashion when I tell them "NO! I'm NOT swapping in a V8. I don't want one!" ... granted I have one.. and with a weiand intake, 455 TBI unit, LT1 cam, vortec or alu L98 heads, headers, etc.. all of which already exist and are available from the hooker sitting on the corner just up the street.. it could be fast.. but instead I'm dumping money into a custom-fabrication job on the V6.. why? Because thanks to weight, when this turbo is on there, she'll stand up to a TPI car easily.. and thanks to weight distribution, once I do the suspension and get rubber on these 16" irocs I have and slap 'em on there (put one on and DAMN dey sexi) I'll be able to outhandle 95%+++ of the cars in this town (including these particular late model aftermarket two-tone painted ford crown vi.. ..... errr.. I didn't say that...)

614Streets

I guess you dont count costs for head gaskets, bolts,fluids,plugs,etc.

How fast are you now anyways, I want to know.

614Streets

Oh yeah lol , try running that 500 kit with out a bottle heater. Rev limiter? How about slicks, got em? Ignition? Pills to tune it right?Intake gaskets? Timing cover gasket? Water pump gasket? Rtv?Cleaner? Youd be hard pressed to do it right that cheap. It would cost you every bit of that $1500 raise to keep up with me , reliably

Oh yeah cant forget binker fluid and an o pipe

dennis6

"Im looking for a engine that will throw me back in the seat if i Give her at a intersection... But I dont wanna go crazy....

If I pull out the 2.8L, will a 3.4L just drop right in.. What else would I have to do...

In any case I think the 2.8L will be fine. It puts out 135hp-ish and Im hoping after some mods It can push just under 190.

On a 1987 Camaro, What do you think a 2.8L with headers, new ignition system, and a high rise cam.. (As well as a few other tweeks) Will run. If I can get 15's I'd be damn happy

Thanks"

Seems to me that he wanted a performance engine. As for the 305 it can be built N/A to around 400hp. Granted it would be cheaper to do on a 350, but it has far more potential than a 2.8,3.1, or a 3.4.

Some things aren't worth defending, and the V6 is one of them. As for handling I belive the best handling thirdgens were the IROC-Zs. Btw, they weren't V6.

If you want a performance V6 car, get a fiero. It weighs 2600lbs, has midengine layout, and will turn circles around almost anything. People are running 12's with these cars using a SC3800 and little more than a blower pulley.

614Streets

Actually it is. It isnt like everyone in the gm family is limited to just small blocks and big blocks. Its challanging to squeeze power out of the v6. I always loved the challange, and I like the power I got from my v6 enough that I did not ever comprehend doing a v8. I may be different in that I did build a 355 for my strip toy and have that as my trump card if I want to play really rough, but for daily driving the v6 suits me just fine.

Plenty of people have built high horsepower 60 degree v6's. Im not gonna bash the Idea of swapping in the v8 to get the best bang for the buck. But for those of us who prefer to hot rod something as opposed to just ordering every part you need from a catolog, the v6 presents a great platform to challange yourself.


Dont knock the v6's they can be just as fun if not funner than a v8. If you havent built one, dont act like you know it all. And if you built a slow one, you need some advise, thats what this section is for....

1991tealRSt-topGuy

problem with that is, i've yet to see somebody build a fast one, its all talk

Lee7

nobody on *these* boards have built fast ones.

I know plenty of other people who have built some fast 60's.

for instance: http://tiago.phxchevy.com/

denbatera

I have a 89 Camaro RS with a 2.8 V6 with a 4-Speed Auto transmission. And I think mine doesn't have a posi rear cause the I easily peel out when changing from Drive to Rear quickly and stepping the gas same thing backwards. I might be wrong though...lol
But the reason I'm here is to have suggestions on making my V6 run quicker (no swapping engines!!! And suggestions not criticism!!!) Doward has a Turbo on the V6 I would like to do the same thing on mine..... Check out my car at: http://members.cardomain.com/denbatera

Thank you

AGood2.8

That car is a time bomb waiting to explode- He has no reliability factor.

Lee7

yeah i think those cast pistons might go poof pretty soon, he needs some forged pistons and copper head gaskets, then he should be good to go. 60v's already come with forged connecting rods.

The_Raven

LMAO, this is too funny.

If you want to get into the whole "X engine was not built for performance" Then no engine ever was, even the SBC was initially designed just to get the car down the road, it is because of hot rodders and public demand that parts have been made, to make them even more powerful.

If we are only talking strictly parts cost, as in major parts cost, no gaskets, fluids and such, I have less than $1000 CDN in to my swap, I'll let you know the numbers as soon as I get to the track, and they don't close it due to weather, hopefully this weekend.

614streets, you know what, give up, don't defend the 660, let the V8 guys believe they are gods and when we are done with our builds, we'll show them who's who.

Oh and I couldn't agree more, challenges can be fun at times, especially when you came out at the end a victor, meaning that you acheived your goals.

Let me try this new way of thinking....

You're right, the 660 is a dog and will never be able to make any power, **** even the stock numbers are inflated, they only make maybe 78 HP and around 65.87643 ft/lbs of torque, no where near the 1 HP or so per cubic inch some are rated at making.



It's also some what hmerous how on any site that has different forums for a V8 and a V6, especially the 660, V8 owners seem to feel that they need to go into the v6 secition and bash the owners of those vehicles for trying to improve on what they have instead of supporting them and saying "Hey, now that's different" among other useful things...

funstick

soon there will be a 60 v6 running around the greater detriot area terrorizing V8 cars left and right. the 60 v6 was never designed ot be a performance engine but it will be when we get done with it.

Doward

Nobody on *these* boards? Dude!! What do you call me???

Seriously, once Vortex and I get the built 3.1/16g combo in, and tuned, we'll see some fast 660's on here.

A well done suspension on a V6, and on a V8, the V6 will outhandle the 8. Seriously. Badly. My stock 2.8 outhandles a '92 305 TBI like nothing at all.

Use a 2600 Fiero? Why? I'm 2950, with a 1/2 tank of gas. Once I get a fiberglass hood (-25 lbs), get rid of the power driver's seat (HEAVY - like -30 lbs right there!) and hell - I can afford to loose about 30lbs. Lightweight sound insulation (-10lbs)

Aluminum driveshaft and flywheel (-10lbs)

That's another 100 lbs or so I can shave off, right off my head. That'll put me around 2800lbs race weight. Only 200lbs off from a Fiero! These 3rd gens CAN be light weight.

As for Tiago's setup... yeah, it's strong. But if I can nail about 250rwhp, I'll be in the same neighborhood of speed as him, but with a lot less strain on the engine.

Doward

I'd also like to point out AM91's 3.1... running low/mid 15's, it's the quickest official (meaning posted proof of a run down an official track) 660 I know of on the boards

Lee7

yours is not fast "yet"

I havent seen any dyno results or track times, but that is mainly due to the bad engine. Hurry up and fix it!

funstick

wow what a poorly designed intake on that turboed 4th gen. that was a bad idea.

AGood2.8

Rods are forged yes, But still are not shotpeened. Crank is stock also with any work done to it. He has a nice valvetrain but I would definately agree with funstick that the intake is a joke- that extended plenum design conbined with the long travel through the stock runner maze? Its like a long gardenhose. His pistons are stock- biggest problem. Its a matter of time- A very short time. I hope he has money to burn because he's going to loose most of that motor including his heads- should always do things right to begin with and not rush. He put his money in the wrong places first.

Doward

I don't know about that... yeah, the intake tract IS long, but as long as the velocity is kept up, and pressure loss is minimal, it doesn't really matter how long your intake tract is.

Extremely nice setup Tiago's got there. Am I right, that he's running an S3 trim T4 on that 3.4? Nice...

We'll have to see what Vortex Performance can cook up

Dale

iTrader: (12)

How about this RWD 3.4 intake on a 3.2 FWD z24...

funstick

ah thats a 90* v6 cuosin to the 3.8 right ? um what exactly was done to put that intake on ther e? is it the 3.8 base etc or did somebody pull a fast one on me while i was sleeping. ive been looking at the 3.8 heads lately wondering if theyd fit a 2.8-3.1 60 v6 the more i look at them the more i think it should work. anyways id liek some detials on that bad *** looking sleeper. !

dennis6

First, I said an IROC Z, they are not TBI 305 cars, and have different suspension. Compare apples to apples.

As for the Fiero, even if you could get it to weigh the same, you still don't have a midengined setup. The midengine design is used by most of the supercars. It loads the rear supsenion and gives nearly a perfect balance.

2_point8_boy

So you're saying that no IROC-Z's came with a 305? A girl i used to work with had an IROC with a 305 TPI. Hmmm...

614Streets

Thats curtis walkers cavalier. nope its a 60 degree v6 , runs mid 12's.
He just ran 12.49 http://www.turboz24.com/Files/12_49_run.wmv

http://www.turboz24.com


Dont any of you hang out at http://www.60degreev6.com/ ?


Oh and my s10 ran 14.40's on a 100 shot with a few bolt ons with the old 2.8 motor.

funstick

ugh no i dont hang out at the 60 v 6 anywhere. im to busy with otehr stuff to really distract myself anymore. ive got enough on my hands offering parts for the 86-89 accords. trust me it eats up alot of time. and the tunnign business i have has been growing bit by bit. then 2 part time jobs. yeah its tough to find time. im working on something else though. i need ot get my honda into the 12's

dennis6

I said 305 TBI, not 305 TPI. DUH

There is a slight difference between the TBI and TPI setup. Like 50hp.

IROC Z being a performance model uses TPI. TBI is a base model car. The TBI cars do not have the suspension that the IROCs have.

dennis6

1991 Cavalier Z24 Specs
Engine
Block : 1990 3.1 Vin V, vated, honed, powdercoated, Oil filter bypass removed
Crank Shaft : Externally balanced Magnafluxed and fully hardened
Connecting Rods : Crower bolt through sportman modified Small block
Pistons : Ross Forged racing pistons 8.0 : 1.0 compression
Rings : TotalSeal Racing Cromemoly
Camshaft Specs (Intake/Exhaust) : Crower Billet Mechanical Roller cam
285/277 advertised duration | 254/246 @ .05" duration | .6176"/.6016" lift | 114 separation
Heads : 1986 2.8 cast iron ported & polished heads with ARP 190,000 psi head studs
Head Gaskets : .040" GasketWorks solid Copper
Lifters : Crane roller mechanical
Pushrods : CompCams One Piece CromeMoly .083 wall 5/16 hardened Length intake : 6.300 Exhaust : 6.300
Rockers : Crane needle bearing roller tip forged 1.6 ratio
Springs : Crower springs, retainers, valve guides
Valves : SI Valves one-piece stainless steel, swirl polished
Plugs : AC/Delco Rapid Fire
Intake manifold (upper & lower) : 1995 3.4 V6 Camaro (modified)
Throttle Body : 1995 Camaro LT1
Valve Covers : 1986 V6 fiero
Fuel Regulator : Custom fuel rail mounted
Injectors : 52 lb/hr Bosch
Fuel Pump : 255 L/hr Holley in tank
Electronic Control : Haltech E6A with GM DIS module, Jacbos' Electronics DIS coils, and 3 bar map sensor
Turbo : Compressor – Garrett 60-1 / Turbine - Turbonetics T03 stage 5 .62 A/R ratio
Intercooler : Spearco model 2-115
Blow Off Valve : Greddy Type-R BOV
Clutch : Clutch Masters Stage 4 4-puc metallic
Rev Limit : 8100 RPM
Battery : trunk relocated Optima 800U

Exhaust
JetHot coated headers and exhaust
Custom crossover pipe
Custom 3 in. exhaust system
No Converter
Borla 3" in/out Sportsman Racing Muffler
Exhaust exists behind drivers door / in front of rear wheel

Suspension/Brakes
1993 Cadillac Seville front hubs, bearings, calipers, & 11.25 in rotors
1986 Pontiac 6000 STE rear bearings, calipers, & 10.5 in rotors
1996 Camaro master Cylinder with adjustable proportioning valve
ASA 5x115 bolt, 16x7.5 wheels
225/50-16 Yokahama A032R's
Eibach lowering springs
Tokicko struts and shocks
Poly control arm, swaybar bushings, and end links

Thats alot of work and expense for mid 12's. Those Fiero SC3800 setups would be alot cheaper, and should run on cheap gas.

Still this isn't in a Fbody. Lets see a fast V6 Fbody, that is done cheaper than a V8 swap. N/A should be compared to N/A. Power adders should be compared to Power adders.

dennis6

The Fiero is a whole lot cheaper to build. The same engine would be alot slower in the camaro than the cavilier. The cavilier has a weight of 2509lbs. This is stock weight. Not I am gonna rip everything out and then weigh it weight.

Specs of the 91 Cavilier
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/u...specifications
Specifications Chevrolet Cavalier 2-door convertible Chevrolet Cavalier 2-door coupe Chevrolet Cavalier 4-door sedan Chevrolet Cavalier 4-door wagon
Wheelbase, in. 101.3 101.3 101.3 101.3
Overall Length, in. 182.3 182.3 182.3 181.1
Overall Width, in. 66.3 66.3 66.3 66.3
Overall Height, in. 52.0 52.0 53.6 52.8
Curb Weight, lbs. 2678 2509 2520 2623
Cargo Volume, cu. ft. 10.7 13.2 13.0 64.4
Standard Payload, lbs. -- -- -- --
Fuel Capacity, gals. 15.2 15.2 15.2 15.2
Seating Capacity 4 5 5 5
Front Head Room, in. 37.8 37.8 39.1 38.9
Max. Front Leg Room, in. 42.2 42.6 42.1 42.1
Rear Head Room, in. 37.3 36.1 37.4 38.5
Min. Rear Leg Room, in. 32.0 31.2 32.0 32.5

dennis6

Specs of a 90-92 camaro
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/u...specifications
Specifications Chevrolet Camaro 2-door convertible Chevrolet Camaro 2-door hatchback
Wheelbase, in. 101.1 101.1
Overall Length, in. 192.6 192.6
Overall Width, in. 72.4 72.4
Overall Height, in. 50.3 50.4
Curb Weight, lbs. 3203 3103
Cargo Volume, cu. ft. 6.6 12.3
Standard Payload, lbs. -- --
Fuel Capacity, gals. 15.5 15.5
Seating Capacity 4 4
Front Head Room, in. 37.2 37.0
Max. Front Leg Room, in. 43.0 43.0
Rear Head Room, in. 36.8 34.7
Min. Rear Leg Room, in. 28.3 28.9

dennis6

That makes the differnce between a Cavilier and Camaro about 600 pounds. 600 pounds will slow down the Camaro. So you won't have a 12 second car.

People compare apples to apples. A 2.8 in a Pinto running 9's will not run 9's in a Camaro. Lets see fast Camaros with the 60 V6.

As for a 305 not being a "performance" engine...

Willie
Moderator

Registered: Jul 1999
Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
Posts: 1999
Car:
Engine:
Transmission:
First and foremost, you must make a determination of what YOU want out of your car. If budget is a concern (it is with most of us), research the most cost effective means to achieve your goal.

Is it worth keeping your 305? That depends. Yes, the same mods that work on a 305 also works on a 350 with better gains. However, if you factor in the cost of a 350, it might be cheaper to keep the 305. There are far too many variables here to go into any detail, so I'll leave it here.


After doing the research I have found that the 305 isn't worth the effor to build up.

This is a personal choice. It's not mine, but thanks to this type of reasoning, which most people conclude, it makes me look extremely good with the results I'm getting with my 305.

My original goal was to get my 305 into the 12's. I knew I would need a power adder, but that was not a concern. I never dreamed I would be in the 11's (actually, I'm knocking on this door) with a daily-driven 305. With my latest mods since my last track outing, I should make 11's the next time out.


At the most without NOS, turbos or superchargers you can only expect around 340HP if you stroke it and bore it out.

Agreed. But it appears from the original question that supercharging may not be out of the question, so it's entirely valid to keep the 305.


I would however start with free mods and get the suspension stuff and basic things out of the way before getting to the engine swap.

Yep. The entire process it not cheap. Good luck!


__________________
Willie

Supercharged 1987 305 IROC-Z, Daily-Driver, Emissions-Legal.
Best E/T: 12.00
Best mph: 117.69 mph
Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 2002

SC Z!!!!

1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible
305 TPI / 5-speed
Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998

TPLS Z!!!!

The_Raven

Am I sensing some fear from the V8 owners? "Gotta be in an F-body". Ok, that puts me out, but originally it was just a v8 compared to a V6 deal.

Whatever, here is a hint for you V8 guys, we don't care what you think about our "POS engines", we like them, and will continue to find ways to male them more powerful, if you don't like it, lump it.

I don't go bashing V8s, unless I know you personally and challenge you to a race, but that's face to face.

Oh well, differnet strokes for different folks (pun intended).

TechSmurf

Uhm.. and to correct you guys severely, the base engine in the IROC-Z was the L03 TBI 305.. TPI was an option. Also, the base model did have suspension upgrade options (to Z28 components, though I'm not sure the option was available on V6s outside the F41s of old... which I happen to have a parts F41 ).. so no matter what you do, it's hard to compare apples to apples.

Max suspension upgrade level on an 8 vs same setup, slightly modified to work with v6 weight and ratios, the 6 will whoop an 8. Period.

AGood2.8

Tech said it... and I'll back it with my(suspension board) $500 slalom challange. (Your 8 vs my 6- street tire to street tire- anyone, anytime)

I gotta put skins on this car sometime soon just to see if I can make myself nauseous. I can make the wife real sick real fast on street rubber

Pyroja

All this talk you guys have, just reading this board every day.. Hah, it gets me so anxious to get my Camaro V6. Unfortunately, the mechanic selling it to me is soooooo slow. Told me 2 weeks ago about the car, and I've been sitting waiting for him to get around to tuning it up and making it pass smog. Haven't even seen the guy for 4 days, and he's the next door neighbor!

Ah well. I can't wait to get the car, and all this talk of making a fast 660 is cool. Makes me feel good that I'm getting a V6 over a V8 or something.

So yea, keep up this inspirational speak, it's cool!

2_point8_boy

Ok, but the thought is this. no matter what engine they have in there. It's an IROC-Z and therefore has the IROC-Z suspension. i mean, don't get me wrong, i don't own one, but it seems to me that an IROC has the exact same suspension whether it's the 305 TPI or the 350 TPI or the 305 TBI. suspension does matter in that case. I'm not even going to get into the upgrades, you are just saying that 50HP is going to make you handle better, I'm not even talking HP, I'm talking suspension. A V6 will out manuver (sp?) a V8 any day just because of the weight distribution factor.

614Streets

Less than 40 minutes from now jegs gets the 2 bar sensor in and despite having to work today maybe I'll have mine fired up.