Daishi

What are some other V6's that I can just drop in, in place of the 2.8

I dont mind switching some minor things. But straight over would be nice

1987 Camaro

TomP

Just the 3.1 and 3.4 from a rear-wheel-drive car... that's about it.

Avoid 82-84 2.8's if you can; they had smaller journals on the crank, which made the cranks weaker. 82-84's also had heads with smaller ports, and a less-agressive cam.

The "large journal" crank, larger ported heads, and more agressive cam started in '85.

Some 84's were labeled "High Output" and had the better heads, but they'll still suffer from a weak crank and the less-power camshaft.

All '85 2.8's were labeled "High Output", and that HO designation was dropped in '86. But an 86 2.8 is just the same as an '85 2.8.

87-up 2.8's are internally balanced.

So at the LEAST, try not to get a pre-87 2.8. All 3.1's and 3.4's are okay. See the basic 2.8-for-2.8 swap here: http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen The page errors are from geocities, not me- and don't click on any ads, close them if they pop up!! When I get some time/coin I'll be paying to get rid of those ads...

Daishi

So its Worth my While to just find a 3.4 and just drop her straight in....?

And.. Nothing will need to be changed.. Wires, mounts... NOTHING????

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Not quite that simple daishi.

Search this site, 3.4 has been discussed alot. Heres my "simple version"

Use off your 2.8..
1. Upper intake, middle, lower
2. Oil Pan
3. Timing chain cover
4. engine accessorys (alt, power steering, ac, etc)
5. Fuel rail.


Off the 3.4 RWD
1. Block, crank, pistons, cam
2. Heads
3. Flywheel/flexplate
4. 17lb injectors

Install new at this time
1. Timing Chain
2. Almost full new gaskets

Consider 1.52 roller rockers, any other power goodies.

KED85

Do a search for my
2.8 - 3.4 Long Blcok Swap Boogie thread.
I give about 99% of details ya need pay attention to.
93-95 1/2 3.4 RWD F Body ONLY mill is the simple solution.
Enjoy the research!
1995 1/2 second half became the 3.8 standard mill.
AND a 3.8 won't work well at all for the swap mission.

KED85

Blazer 3.4 mill

Daishi

Well actually Im not so worried about pieces from my old engine that I can still use. i just mean if I have a 100% complete 3.4

Will it just go in, in place of the 2.8?

Doward

No. The intake/fuel/ignition system will not work.

You need to put your 2.8 intake, fuel system *with 3.4 injectors!!*, and distributor into the 3.4

Daishi

Seems simple enough

Actually my dad is a mechanic.. Used to own his own shop

But its hard to talk to him about getting power out of an engine, cause he keeps giving me crap about street racing.

I wasn't aware you couldn't buy headers for the 2.8

Are they available for the 3.4? please someone tell me it is

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The 3.4 headers will but wont work.

They will bolt up to the engine, yes.
Will they clear the firewall, fenderwell and frame, no.


Basically use that quick rundown I gave you. Distributor needs to swap to, thanks whoever mentioned it.

Doward

That'd be me

Quick question, Dale, of the 3.4 swap... is there just a bolted on cover in the back of the 3.4 block for the distributor? Or is it a drill/tap scenario?

KED85

You mean like this?
For the swap
You use the ORIGINAL VEHICLE INDUCTION/IGNITION SYSTEM
Leave on the 3.4 Exhaust manifolds, as they bolt right back up to the 3rd Gen F Body exhaust.
Use the ORIGINAL VEHICLE Timing chain/Oil Pan/Water Pump.
Use the ORIGINAL VEHICLE SENSORS (makes your ECM work perfect again with 3.4)
Use the 3.4 INJECTORS in the ORIGINAL VEHICLE FUEL RAIL.
YOu're done.
YET, it's acustom swap so if ya want, plan accordingly.
Headers,
Express interest for the STREET LEGAL 3RD GEN F BODY product to Mr. Fred Gerle at PaceSetter Exhaust
fgerle@pacesetterexhaust.com
Power is what ya put into project.
IF the 3.4 mill is strong & tight it'll pull like a freight train.
IF your tranny is in good shape, you'll have p[lenty of smiles for miles.
NO you WILL NOT win EVERY RACE,
The 3.4 swap is a great alternative to an engine rebuild & usually the finished product cost will be far less than rebuilding the little 2.8 mill.
HP is 160-165 TORQUE is 200 FOOT POUNDS!
An F Body 3rd gen chassis is HEAVY & old school design.
Be concerned about doing a sanitary swap, you'll be far happier in the end.
Ya want more power?
Dump this project & get a V8 car.
ALL that have done the Swap Boogie are very pleased with results.
All swappers report loosing trannys shortly after the swap due to increased engeine torque & a heavy right foot!

Hope the pic helps with your answer.
The Black hole in the Orange cylinder head below bottom left corner of Black valve cover is location of the Fan Sensor. 3.4 has a recessed oil block plug & that plug is the item that needs removal for inserting your original vehicle fan sensor.

Daishi

Well, I'm not gonna be taking it down to the track anytime soon. I want a beautiful car, with a bit of power, cause whats the point of getting a paint job, and a new interior, and rims, tires. And all that if I got some little puke engine. I like the idea of the 3.4L and I would really like to put some headers on it, because I really like the sound, Can anyone tell me if they know of some headers that will fit? Or if i can get out my torches, and just chop a few pieces to make them fit......

Please for the love of Chev someone tell me that Headers on a 3.4L 1987 Camaro is possible

Daishi

OH yeah, KED85 What Tranny would you reccomend, Cause if I got the engine out, I'd rather replace it then, then have to go thru all the mess of pulling it back out.
Thanks

Lee7

the 3.4 is a wuss engine too. 160hp? thats nothing. You could easily make that with the 2.8 as long as you get headers and a new Y-Pipe. (the parts holding the engine back the most)

You can use 4th gen headers (3.4) on your 2.8, you just need to heat one spot of it up with a torch until its glowing red, and then use a pole to bend it out of the way of the firewall. People have already done this before.

Just some headers and a better camshaft would probably get you up to 160hp.

Of course a 3.4 with some headers would be even better

Truth be told, the 3.4 has the same heads, and same compression ratio. So there is nothing actually BETTER about the 3.4 besides the extra cubic inches. And if you were really interested in making power, you would raise yor compression ratio to at least 10.5:1 and port your heads.

Daishi

Well thats sorta it, I want a summer car, cars that people just stare at as it drives by. But I dont want to be running 10's at the track if you know what i mean, Im probably not even going to take it to the track. But owning a Chev, I have a certain responsibility to know that, Yes sadly enough a mustang 5.0 could beat me, But I refuse to lose to those little crap Civics that are driving around.

I'm not looking for a car that is made for racing, I plan to put a little lcd screen in, a dvd player. Just make a really nice car, the engine part isn't as important. I want power, yes. But I don't want to be messing around with like 300+HP

I am only 18 years old, My first Vehicle was a 1984 Chrysler New Yorker.

So now I want a sporty car, and I want it to just be a real CLEAN car. I think the 3.4L is plently of engine for what I want. As long as it cleans up well, and I can manage around 180HP from her, I'm fine.....

So with that having been said, Headers on a 3.4L with a few other performance parts, that will get me what I want???
Thanks again :lala:

Lee7

i think with some headers and a decent head porting 180hp would be pretty easy on a 3.4. And a more agressive cam would give you that sweet *** lopey idle.

Daishi

Exactly what I was wanting, and there isn't much work to it.. And the cost isn't too high either. Perfect for what Im looking for

Dale

iTrader: (12)

They all have same compression? I belive that is wrong
2.8 has 9 to 1
3.1 has 8.5 to 1
3.4 is 9.5 to 1

Heads are "the same" correct.

180 at flywheel is easy with 3.4, free exhaust, decent intake (the dual Y intake is enough) and a properly programmed ecm, and good ignition.

Ported heads, cam, rockers, some other bolt on goodies can be really close to 200.

If your not wanting to jump hoops, decent power, the 3.4 is way to go. Find youself an engine, and well assist you thru it.

Daishi

roughly how much HP is lost until it reaches the wheel?

15-20%???

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Manual trans cars typically see up to about 15% loss; about 20% for automatics.

We just finished swapping a 3.4 into my girlfriend's car (87 Firebird 2.8), and we did things pretty much like the other guys above. We did, however, use an aftermarket cam/lifters/timing set (Previously installed in the 2.8), the 2.8's heads (they were ported and had new valvesprings for the cam), and of course the 2.8 intake, fuel rail, distributor (you don't have to drill, just take out the stub shaft in the distributor hole), and all accessories. We used the 2.8 timing cover since it has a timing tab and the 3.4 one doesn't, and the 3.4 pan (it was in better shape). We also used the 2.8 oil filter adapter, and the injectors we had used in the 2.8 (19 lb Ford injectors).

Was it worth it? As far as 60 degree V6s go, yes...a 3.4 is as good as it gets. I wouldn't bother with a 3.1 or rebuilding a 2.8. Our 3.4 was about $600 for a complete long block, and we have lots of parts left over to sell (heads, cam and lifters, intake, etc). If you want real power, go V8 (or turbo 3.8 V6 if you can find everything), but be prepared to change a LOT more...transmission, wiring, exhaust, etc, etc.

BTW, headers are available for the 2.8/3.1/3.4...we have a set on order right now from Greg (586-949-3400), and they should make a pretty big difference I would think. We're planning to dyno the car before and after and post the results.

BTW Ked, the trans is still holding out ok, but the rearend is toast! I guess it didn't like the extra torque. Its ok though ,we have a 3.73 disc rear going in as soon as the Earls brake hoses come in!

Daishi

Thanks, As dumb as it seems.....

If I can find a camaro cheap, that has no engine or tranny, thats a good way to go... yes? because Im gonna swap engines anyway. And this way the old is already removed

Good plan?

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Not really, unless its near free. You'll need plenty of stuff from the old engine, and knowing how it all goes back together (from taking it apart ) helps too. Getting the motor ready to pull and actually pulling it doesn't take much time; thats the easy part. Plus, its harder to tell if someone cut the wiring, or removed stuff you may need. It can be confusing enough sometimes remembering where everything goes. If you were planning to swap in a carbureted V8, and not using anything from the original engine, this would be a good way to go.

Daishi

I wanna stick to the V6, Im not quite ready for a V8. AND im pretty sure with a V8 I would abuse my car, and I want her to live forever

Project: 85 2.8 bird

Iguess I should be glad mine still isn't running right, but the tranny works

Daishi

Whats a popular tranny/reliable tranny for the 3.4L?

Anyone have any ideas?

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Either the 700R4 auto or the T5 5 speed manual will work; you just may need to have the autos beefed up a little to handle the extra power. Both come stock in V6 F-bodies. I would suspect that most of the people who went to the 3.4s have done so because of a bad/worn out engine, and the transmission probably wasn't in much better shape. A healthy stock 700R4 should hold up fine, unless you drive WFO all the time like my girlfriend! If hers gives us any trouble (its been rebuilt before, and has a Transgo shift kit), we'll just have it rebuilt with better parts.

Daishi

Gotta have a stick :rockon:

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

pics of 3.4

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

another...

Daishi

That is crazy clean

KED85

From what does the does the Air Cleaner receive fresh air?
Camaro or Firebird vehicle?
Thanks!

86birdv6

that's raif's car, it gets the air thru the ram air hood. that's the ram air intake that can be bought with the hood

thechristopherh

i got a 3.4L. $150 and its yours. you can take the tranny too. but you have to pull it yourself

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

I hope someone's jumping on this deal!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I would if it wasnt 3 days away from me.

82zapper

Bolting ponitac pontiac fiero heads to your sappy camaro 2.8s will put you up to 145hp.

KED85

Fiero heads are VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to FUEL INJECTED 60* F Body heads & also MPFI 1985 X Body heads, too.
If any difference it may be a rocker arm but that's it.
Fieros also had a less restrictive exhaust system, too.
And the Fiero Throttle Body Opening butterfly valve is identical in size to a FBody & XBody (1985) MPFI TB opening butterfly valve & the Fiero TB opening butterfly valve is virtually identical in size to a 1993-95 3.4 TB opening butterfly valve, too.
Fieros have nice valve covers that can be swapped onto a 85-92 MPFI F Body, too.
93-95 F Body 3.4 heads have larger valve springs & they have a higher seat & open pressure due to better cam in a 3.4 than the MPFI heads of 85-92 60* V6 F body.

82zapper

The fieros throttle body is made by holley,the heads are H.O

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The TB is same size as ours is now. Doesnt matter who its made by.

The heads are the exact same as our fuel injected heads. Valves are the same part number for fiero valves, as our camaro valves.

Yes, they are better then the carb heads.

nothing "HO" about the heads for us injected guys.

KED85

Serious, I state the truth in this case.
I was at bone yard, had these two cars Fiero & F Body) side by side & measured. Same thing.
When I did my 3.4 swap, I checked the 3.4 TB I had in hand & yep same, so .......
Fieros have better exhaust system & that CERTAINLY helps!
WHICH is why I am going to Phoenix to have my car used as mule/mock up the 60* V6 Street Legal Headers for 3rd Gen F Body.
Product to be made by PaceSetter.

Heads are moot point for example I stated which is why I said specifically MPFI & X Body FWD MPFI Model 1985.
BUT SUPPORT THE CAUSE FOR STREET LEGAL HEADERS BY PACESETTER! FOR V6 F BODY 85-92!

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

We'll be posting dyno results for Redraif's car, hopefully by the end of next week, that will show how much difference the 3.4 swap really makes. Without headers, the peak HP gain wasn't much over a well tuned 2.8, but the gain under the curve was amazing! Its much flatter, making near its peak all the way from the start of the test to near redline. The torque gain was nearly 80 ft/lbs, around 208 ft/lbs AT THE WHEELS (249.6 flywheel using the 20% correction factor for an auto) and again the curve was much flatter...and this is with a cam that is killing some torque! I suspect that the PF&E headers and y-pipe, QTP cutout , and new intermediate pipe being installed Monday/Tuesday will make a pretty big difference overall. Unfortunately, our new billet throttle body won't be done for about three more months!

If you're staying with a 60 degree V6, a 3.4 swap is the only way to go...it responds much better to mods than the 2.8 did!

KED85

If you're staying with a 60 degree V6, a 3.4 swap is the only way to go...it responds much better to mods than the 2.8 did!

THAT IS WHY I KEEP PUSHING THE 2.8->3.4 LONG BLOCK (LOW MILAGE USED RUNNING ENGINE) SWAP BOOGIE!
Once the swap is done, yeah, you feel like you are now driving a freight train, so much power & yeah it's linear, not peaky.
The 3.4 swap is such a treat/dream come true...
And I am running a factory cam in a 3.4 engine (which is actually close specs to a 2030 Crane Cam for our 60* mills).
What sized pipe ya using? 2 1/2" from CC outlet to tailpipe?
What sized "Y" pipes?
The factory (ON 3.4 93-95 f body model years) used 2 1/2" pipes from exhaust manifolds to the CC inlet.
I can't wait to get to Phoenix (the days are now counting down) so my Firebird can be used as mule for mock up & submitting for the 60* V6 #rd gen F Body (85-92 model years only) street legal headers from PaceSetter.

dennis6

Test drive a V8 before you say your not ready for one. They can be quite mild and sound much better. A 305 can be gotten for free sometimes. This engine produced somewhere between 160-220 hp depending on induction and heads. Torque was more than the 3.4 v6.

A V6 is never going to sound like a V8 and V8 parts are cheap.
That said, if you have to have a 60 V6 do put in the 3.4. THe only reason I would ever do that is for insurance/smog/free reasons.

KED85

V6 is never going to sound like a V8 and V8 parts are cheap. That said, if you have to have a 60 V6 do put in the 3.4. THe only reason I would ever do that is for insurance/smog/free reasons.

Insurance, I never considered that factor.
I also own a 1974 Corvette, what insurance factor!
SMOG was the ABSOLUTLY #1 REASON FOR MY SWAP.
I pass so easy & under radar & as a plus I do run extremely clean.
One smog test of the Dyno Roller test, registed ZERO on the scope!
My VIN calls out a V6 & IF IN CA I UPGRADED TO A V8 from V6, I'd pay about $300 or so & do a visit to smog testing site.
Free?
I paid $800 for my 1985 Firbird used 1995 40,000 mile 3.4 long block.
For 3.4 (50,000) for my Blazer I paid $900.
WAS worth every penny! And effort.
I seriously get the best kick outta my Firebird, what a well balanced ride.

sixbanger

I'm a bit of a 'tard on this matter but what vehicles does the 3.4 come out of?

Pyroja

As far as I know. they only came out of 93 - 95 Camaros. There may be others though, and I am by far not at all experienced with this stuff compared to the other folks here, so uh.. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, heh.

dennis6

I did say the only reason I would, others have different needs. From a performance stand point a V8 swap is the better choice, atleast until the 3800 swap is perfected.

KED85

ACTUALLY this 3.4 upgrade is a wonderful cost effective solution.
To me if ya blow up a V6 3rd Gen engine & ya like the car, do this 3.4 swap.
IF ya feel ya F Body always lack power but like the F Body find a great condition V8 car. And that 2nd option is getting harder, not easier, to accomplish.
The 3.4 was the V6 engine in 1993 - 1995 (first half of production run in '95).
Came in Camaro & Firebird (RWD version) ONLY.
This same 60* V6 engine family is being reintroduced in 2005 GM vehicles, too as a 3.5 - 3.6.

dennis6

You don't need a good condition V8 car. All it takes for a basic swap is the V8 motor mounts, v8 tranny, and the V8. You will have a V8 in your car at that point. From there it can be as simple or complex as you want it. You can throw on a carb and go or you can wire up a fuel injection system. On automatics the 700R4 can be locked up many different ways if you just want a carb.

I don't see a V8 swap as expensive, especially if you use a 305.
Gas mileage is pretty much mute as a FI 305 gets about the same as a FI 2.8. Alot of people who properly tune their carbs have gotten the same gas mileage as FI 2.8 with a 305.

There is no right or wrong. A 3.4 is a simpler swap. If you like your car as it is then all means go for it. If not a V8 swap would probably be a better route.