KED85

Time to send Mr. Fred Gerle a question, Dale!
fgerle@pacesetterexhaust.com
From our discussions, the product whould have covered "all years".
PERHAPS Summit made the error.
Couldn't be happier to send a smile anyones way, these days!
Glad I could help ya figure out a way to spend your money!
G0D I love capitalism!!!

TomP

Actually that's how it's covered with CA's smog exemption, too; just the 2.8's for Camaros. How picky is CA? If you've got a 2.8 in a Firebird, and the EO # is for a Camaro, do the smog stations know the difference?

coolrimsatleast

This is gonna be sweet when I get that 3.4 sooner or later, roller rockers, new distributer, etc etc, and headers with a y-pipe even.

Maybe i'll have my tranny rebuilt with a V8 rebuild kit while i'm putting the engine together.

BitchinRS

By looking at the CARB data sheet it looks like those of us with 3.1L in Cali are not covered by the EO#. Witch is truley sad!

br()bert

Cool, Show your thanks by sending Ked $5 ea

KED85

Send me a fresh
PAT'S & GINO'S CHEESESTEAK!!!!!!
FOLLOWED BY A LEE'S HOAGIE

I sent an email to Mr. Fred Gerle to find out what is the true scoop about vehicle usage & applications, (which is a detail-beyond fitment for the later vehicles)
PS
I got a Firebird & I sure hope my vehicle can "use" these headers. I ain't buying no more Camaros, already got 2, Except I seek a 1969 for Trans Am battle!!!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

karl, your 85 is ready to bolt n go.

I would ask what your waiting for, but I know

MakeitQuick92RS

iTrader: (1)

So as far as a 1992 camaro goes were gonna have to bypass the smog?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

by viewing the picture shown to us of the proto-types. Smog pump is the problem.

Hopefully by 10-1-04, I can give exact details.

Nocturnall

No Smog hole won't be a problem for this 91firebird, I want it gone anyways...now I just wish I could get'em WITHOUT the egr mount since that's broken anyways.




Great job Karl!!! :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

Projek: 85 3800

a block off plate should be cake to fab up.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Block off plate is easy

BitchinRS

I don't have any smog pump holes in my manifolds and it's a '92. The AIR pipe goes to the cat.

KED85

Nocturnall, Glad I could toss a smile your way!

Yeah, Dale, by Tuesday morning, alot will have to be acomplished.
PS OF COURSE I HAD TO HAVE tossed the perfect fitting (original) kitchen sink!

Later model 3.1 mills have smog pumps set ups?
Whose stupid idea was that ancient item?

KED85

Hi Everyone!
Here is my response from MR. Fred Gerle at PaceSetter Exhaust.
IF anyone can help us, please do provide pictures for our assistance.
Send your information to - fgerle@pacesetterexhaust.com
I also asked that "Firebird" be included in the wording of the "Smog Acceptance Application".

Response from Mr. Gerle - "it actually only lists the Camaro, but that can be fixed.
As it reads now, it's 1985-90 2.8L.
When did the 3.1 first make its appearance?

Refresh me: If this header fits what I said, will it fit and hook up to smog, etc., on any other years or engines?
FG"

Give a shout to help us all!
Now is the time for those 1990-91 model year vehicles to raise your hands & voices!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

3.1 was 91-92, I thought 90 was also.

My 1991 3.1l Auto did have smog pump hole. If he needs pictures of a pluged smog pump manifold, I can do that for him.

planman

3.1 was in 90-92 based upon the techical data chart on this website.

KED85

WOOPS!
Forget the 3rd Gen model year ended with 1992 model year vehicles!
Too tired from a personal project completing on Tues. Morning.
All those with MORE ACCURATE information (than myself!) chime in.
PaceSetter Exhaust can use your knowledge & help!
PS I informed Mr. Gerle that the 2005 Caddy also uses the 60*V6 engine, "same" as in our 3rd Gens. As an added bonus, the Caddy rides on a RWD platform, too!

AM91Camaro_RS

3.1 was only in 91s and 92s, wasn't it? my 91 3.1 auto HAD a smog pump.

Doward

'90-'92 was 3.1

'82-'84 was 2.8 small journal
'85-'89 was large journal 2.8

AM91Camaro_RS

alright, my bad...

kevo2k6

im positive 3.1s went in 90's. because i have a 1990 camaro and its a 3.1L .

kretos

started it 90

Firebird90

iTrader: (1)

90 with a 3.1 here.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

does that 90 3.1 have smog pump?

Auto/Manual?

TechSmurf

'82-'84 was carbed 2.8 small journal
'85-'86 was MPFI 2.8 small journal
'87-'89 was MPFI 2.8 large journal

kevo2k6

wats small and large journal?

camaro_junkie

Thanks for the clarification Tech. I could have sworn I remembered TomP (or possibly someone else) looking that up and saying that only '87-up was large journal.

AM91Camaro_RS

kevo, small and large journal refer to the size of the journals on the crank shaft. the small journal motors were notorious for spinning rod bearings. the journals are where the rods connect to the crank shaft and where the crank shaft sits in the main caps of the block.

TomP

Actually, Doward's right, 85-89 are large journal cranks - and that extends to the 90-92 3.1's.

82-84's had a large 3rd main bearing, but the 1st and 2nd and 4th were small. This made the crank weaker.

Starting in 1985, GM cast the cranks so all 4 journals were the same size as the 82-84's 3rd journal.

Starting in 1987, GM now added a center counterweight. This was meant for the distributorless "Gen II" 2.8's in front wheel drive cars. The Gen II's had a crank sensor that would read notches in this counterweight- and of course, our f-bodies didn't use it. BUT, this counterweight allowed GM to internally balance the crankshaft. 82-86 cranks were externally balanced on the flywheel. So with an 87-up 2.8/3.1/3.4 block, you can switch the crankshaft/flywheel/flexplate out piece-by-piece and it doesn't matter. With 82-86, once you change the crank/flywheel/flexplate, you need to attach the crank to the flywheel/flexplate and have that whole assembly balanced.

All 82-95 2.8/3.1/3.4 harmonic balancers are "neutral balanced".

Hopefully that clears it up!

BitchinRS

'90-'92 have smong puumps. The problem is figuring out weather the it injected the air at the manifold or the at the cat.

My 1992 camaro 3.1L with 5 speed has the smog pump inject the air at the cat.

Others on here have it injected at the manifold. Could this possibly be because there automatics?

Doward

Thanks, TomP... didn't even check back to this thread after tossing my own .02 into it.

FWIW - I've got a FWD 3.1 crank, with the timing disc, in my RWD 2.8 block right now. Seems FWD and RWD cranks are interchangeable, which makes sense. Just be sure to stay after '87 (like Tom said) to be sure everything is neutral balanced.

Doward

Bitching, my '88 2.8 has it straight to the manifolds - T5 here, as well. I changed over to 3.1 manifolds, for no reason other than the holes for the smog pump was not on the driver's manifold. No more pipe plugs for me.

TomP

That's why the motor I rebuild (one of these years, hopefully before I'm 80 years old) is gonna be an '87. It'll be one less thing for me to worry about.

[edit] Oh and I only noticed b/c I came back to check on the Firebird/CARB EO/emissions thing- and I forgot (twice) to thank Karl for checking into it!!

MakeitQuick92RS

iTrader: (1)

Can't we just re-route the smog to the cat? After we put on the pacesetter headers or course.

87CamaroMan

When I pulled my 2,8 outta my 87 Camaro. The flexplate had a weight on it. And the harmonic balancer was completly different than the one on the 3.4 so wouldn't that make my old 2.8 externaly balanced.

Doward

If you had a weight on the flywheel, then yeah, you were externally balanced... odds are, the motor got a swap sometime before you got it.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

i decided to be a guinea pig with you dale, just got my headers ordered too.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

same price I was given?

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

$217 and change :rockon:

TomP

Not necessarily. The flexplate was probably neutral-balanced- balanced all by itself. You'll see some harmonic balancers on junkyard 2.8's that are weighted, some aren't- they're neutral balanced; kind of like a tire- when you get a new tire, you just balance it to the wheel. You don't go putting the whole axle in balance, just the wheel/tire.

Doward

Good point.

LinuxGuy

iTrader: (1)

My 1987 Camaro w/ 2.8L and a 5-speed has a smog pump hooked to the manifold.

My 1989 Camaro w/ 2.8L and a 5-speed has a smog pump hooked to the manifold as well.

So it is not just 90-up. I am not sure what determined whether or not a particular car recieved a smog (AIR) pump.

MakeitQuick92RS

iTrader: (1)

I'll ask again...can i just run a hose to the catalytic converter, or should i just bypass it?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

My smog pump seems to have disappered off the car at some point

I have no clue if you can just run a hose the the cat or not.

AM91Camaro_RS

makeitquick...that's one of the great things about FL...no smog checks! i assume its the same way in your area anyways. so, yes you can just bypass the smog pump; you can take it all out if you want to. good luck with the storm headed somewhat your direction, hope all is okay for you.

TomP

Er, wait, what's the difficulty? Air pump goes to the manifolds and the cat, right? I'd imagine you could buy the headers, drill holes in the primaries for the air pump pipes, and then bring them (and 6 fittings) to a body shop and ask them to weld them on. The EGR was the big problem, and Pacesetter gave that to us.

Or do I have something wrong with what I thought I knew? Everyone here said "smog pump hole" and not "holes"...

If a 90-92 3.1 just has an air line from the smog pump to the cat and nothing else, might as well leave it unless you really wanted to throw the pump away. All the aftermarket hi-flow cats I've owned (okay, only two) have had the air fitting sticking out of the side- but capped off- which works for my '86 2.8 auto (no AIR pump). So if you pulled the air pump off and still had that open fitting at the cat, just cap it off... screw a bolt into it or something, or try flattening the end of the tube with pliers and then bending it backwards (crimped shut).

Dale

iTrader: (12)

on my 91, their is only one hole for the smog pump, and I can not find the proper size threads for it. Closest I found was 1/2 something in the plumbing section. Then got some high-heat cement to keep it in.

BitchinRS

TomP,

I belive the problem comes in with the Carb EO stuff. I belive they have to certify them for both setups. Of course I could be wrong, it's just the way I under stand it.

camaro_junkie

I'm not sure how familiar you are with threads, but it probably is not a standard bolt thread. It is likely a pipe thread or something similar since it has to have a metal-to-metal seal.