91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

im getting my car prepared for a turbo or maybe a powerful 3.4 i was wondering what are some suspension and drivetrain mods that will illiminate spinning and wheel hop.

also which differential do any of you perfer?

Xophertony

tube steel rear suspension components. new rear sway bar bushings and bolts. tube steel lower control arms. tube steel (side to side bar, don't remember the name, somone help me out here....)

RTFC

Buy the best tires you can afford,
Buy the best shocks you can afford.

After that, if you are still getting any kind of substantial wheelspin then look into a locking or limited slip differential.

A V6 does not put down the kind of power to warrant such purchases of aftermarket suspension parts to eliminate wheelhop. If you are getting wheelhop, buy better shocks, you current shocks are bad or just weak if already new.

redraif

Don't lower the car

I've got massive traction issues and the car is not putting down the power to really cause it to have issues! Leave the stock springs in. In fact some drag race v-8 guys use v-6 springs up front to help their launches!

Don't run a front sway bar on the track either!

Edit: don't get larger heavier wheels either...go with a lighter drag race style wheel! My 17s are too heavy...probably part of my prob too!

RTFC

I have to say, my car is as low as it gets and is very stiffly sprung, however, it will get off the line with absolutely no wheelspin with about an 1800stall convertor and runs about a16sec flat on a 2.8motor.

Redraif, I have said before that I truely believe that weight is a major hinderance on your cars' performance. Then I would say tires and shocks. A 16-17 sec car should not be an issue to launch. It should launch itself. I would highly recommend getting that 2800 stall convertor back out of there and traction off the line with a heavy Firebird will not be as much an issue from a dead stop. Yu will probably gain a 1/4 to a 1/2 sec right there and be easier to drive.

If you had good tires on there (for sake of no arguement on tire quality, lets just say if you were running slicks) you would not be able to spin the tires and that 2800 stall is way too high for the power of the 3.4 even if it is "built". At even 200 rwhp it will not pull immediately to 2800 rpms off the line unless you are runningabout a 4.56 rearend. The only reason why it seems to work is because you ARE getting tire spin to maintain the 2800rpms until the car gets moving to regain traction. I don't know who suggsted that stall but they gave a very bad recommendation in my opinion.

Xophertony

good to know.

my problem is that i have a twin turbo V8. but only in my mind . <---- i am that second guy

TomP

Especially since most people on here still have their original factory struts and shocks from whenever the car was built!!

redraif

I agree weight is playing a part. I did manage to get the cars weight down 200# from last time. Car with me in it is now at 3555! But I think the car is sprung to stiff to be able to squat at launch!

Quote:

I would highly recommend getting that 2800 stall convertor back out of there and traction off the line with a heavy Firebird will not be as much an issue from a dead stop. Yu will probably gain a 1/4 to a 1/2 sec right there and be easier to drive.

Well before the convertor and the 3.73s...the car did not spin off the line. You are right. What it did do is sit and go no where! It was bogging so bad it was embarrassing. I could even rev it till the car was starting to inch FWD, about to break free of the brakes...then launch at the light change! You know what I ran...high 18s - low 19s

Quote:

If you had good tires on there (for sake of no arguement on tire quality, lets just say if you were running slicks) you would not be able to spin the tires

Well I wish your theory was right! I tried GOOD tires! BFG Drag radials to be exact! I tried several methods to the same result.

*Doing a burnout gave me my best time...16.7, but still spun and got a 2.3 60ft!
*No burnout, same launch, spun, gave 16.8, with 2.3 60ft!
*Not launching off the convertor, but going full break to full gas at light change, spun, 17.1, with 2.3 60ft!
*Easing the car into the run with no wheel spin...17.1, with 2.3 60ft!

Quote:

and that 2800 stall is way too high for the power of the 3.4 even if it is "built". At even 200 rwhp it will not pull immediately to 2800 rpms off the line unless you are runningabout a 4.56 rearend. The only reason why it seems to work is because you ARE getting tire spin to maintain the 2800rpms until the car gets moving to regain traction. I don't know who suggsted that stall but they gave a very bad recommendation in my opinion.

Well considering it was set up and built by an extremely reputable automatic racing tranny & racing convertor shop, based on the cam specs, I don't see how it could be wrong! Convertors are supposed to be matched to the cam. You know of another shop I could call? I would give them my specs and see what they think!

MrDude_1

just curious now.... whats your 60' time?

AM91Camaro_RS

I don't have any traction issues with my car. 2.05 60' on street tires and I can feel that the timing needs to be played with on the computer to get it better. But, it hooks and launches hard. I'm going to guess springs or struts/shocks are too stiff for redraif.

RTFC

I have said many many times, I am not about to embarass myself and take a car that is over 13secs to a drag strip.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but you people building 60*V6 cars for drag racing are nuts- where's the thrill. I can not believe that people believe a little tirespin on a 200hp motor in a 3500 lb car is hurting their 1/4 mile time- its pointless. Good help you if you had real power behind that car because you are having problems keeping traction on a V6? Ever try dring something with over 500hp? how about something with 3000+HP They get traction, why cant you with 200 hp. Tires, tires, tires at your level.

Redraif, I am very skeptical and would love to see video of you spinning drag radials on your car. There is a problem somewhere and its not too stiff of a suspension with 200 hp (and thats if you are even pumping 200 hp)

Back to Mr Dude again, I have said also countless times I was curious what this car ran so a friend timed me through an "unofficial" 1/4 mile run we used to use years back in an industrail area just out of curiousity due to other resonses on this board to see a comparison. I clicked of a messily 15.8 then 15.9 back to back with the 3.42's in it at that time. It now has 3.23's so I conservatively say it does flat 16's now but is beeter geared for its intended build purpose for daily driving and highway speeds. This car is still very slow, but nothing as pathetic as when it was stock- it must have run mid 17's when we first bought it. 16 flat is still embarassing hence why I am working on another powerplant. I just installed a NEW GM crate motor 2.8 about 4 years back with roller tip rockers and a few other bolt-on goodies thinking that the motor was just tired and that would peep it up civily- it didn't. It gave NOTICIBLY more power than it had before, but still not enough to my liking to keep me from complaining the little I do drive it. Hence why I am now building a 3.5l motor that will be ready withing the next few years when the now 40,000 mile 2.8 gets tired in a few more years I will install the 3.5. Unlike most people here, my Camaro is not a full time money investment for me. It is merely a car I own and when something get wrong with it, I fix it with the best possible product I can find.

I almost sold this car 4 years back when it needed a new motor. At that point, I either was going to sell it, or bite the bullet and keep it and build it because it was getting worn everywhere (suspension, brakes, tranny, everything.) When I decided to throw a new crate motor in it I also decided that I would keep this car forever and eventually have fun with it. The 2.8 is buying time (it cost me $1400 new through a friend) In the mean time while constantly focusing on my family and my house projects, I tinker with this car to get it durable for long time street use and reliabilty. I have grown to have fun around this website due to how impressed I was with the final results of this cars responsiveness to the suspension build. It was never my intent to get addicted to this car- it was and still is the wifes grocery getter. I have a 540 pwhp '68 Vette that has run a 10.89 @ LACR back in '89. That is the only car I personally own that I have ever taken to a "professional" drag strip to see what the hell it would really do. I beat motorcycles in that car. Do I give a crap what a slow 60*V6 will do in a 60ft time? No I am sorry I don't- its pointless. I jsut know from a little test I did for comparison curiosity that its about a 16flat car and has absolutely no wheelspin on a roadrace style setup and a 700r4 that is more built that anything on these boards. It is chirping into 2nd now with the 62MM TB

MrDude_1

mmk, i didnt think you would run it down the strip... but when you said it ran a 16 flat and then started talking about launching it at the strip, i thought you might have taken it there for ****s and giggles...

between your low stance and stiff shocks, id expect little to no weight transfer, and even with the engine set back a bit more, i doubted it was enough for you to catch a full drag launch.... atleast on radials.. ET streets you might hook well enough, since like you said, theres not alot of power there..

but thats really on the edge.. i mean, your car still weighs the same as mine (all alum engine).. and while your CG is a little farther back, your stiffer shocks is really limiting transfer...


anyhoo...



91greenbird:

if you're really prepping it for a turbo setup, dont waste your money on a 10bolt diff.
start saving for a 9" setup now.. (or 12bolt)

Doward

Well, I'm going with some LCARBs + HD ZT diff, so I'm hoping to hook a little better

RTFC

You my friend have a whole different animal and it is very justifiable that you are having traction problems

redraif

Well the fact is I have never taken this car to a big drag racing event. It probably would never have seen a track if it was not for our club hosting a Shootout event biannually.

Quote:

Sorry to sound so harsh, but you people building 60*V6 cars for drag racing are nuts- where's the thrill.

I run for fun! Have gotten runner up for bracket racing too against a guy that is the champion bracket racer at his level.

You seem to misunderstand my intention. As drag racing is not the cars intended purpose in life. Its a car that I want to have for fun and shows and driving, but still be able to get the best performance possible from this platform. For me ... it just a good universal basis of comparison to test performance against other cars, as is a dyno!

Quote:

I can not believe that people believe a little tirespin on a 200hp motor in a 3500 lb car is hurting their 1/4 mile time- its pointless. Good help you if you had real power behind that car because you are having problems keeping traction on a V6? Ever try dring something with over 500hp? how about something with 3000+HP They get traction, why cant you with 200 hp. Tires, tires, tires at your level.

Ummmm....anyone can tell you tire spin will hurt your times! That is a given. AM91 is pulling 2.0 60 fts...I'm pulling 2.3... that 3 tenths could make a decent difference in my times and MPH! Heck people gut their cars knowing that 100#s only gives a 10th...

I have not run anything with over 500HP...though the dually is not far from being completed and it will have well over that at the rear wheels! I took it down the line a few times with its stock 454! No wheel spin on it! Though its completely stock and heavy as crap!

And your arguement that 3000hp cars can get traction...not w/o being set up properly...that is my only point! I have to figure out what is off about the car that is causing the traction issues!

Quote:

Redraif, I am very skeptical and would love to see video of you spinning drag radials on your car. There is a problem somewhere and its not too stiff of a suspension with 200 hp (and thats if you are even pumping 200 hp)

Car is strongly at 207 RWTQ ...hp is 134RWHP... It even did the burnout with amazing ease. Surprised quite a few people! We shot video...I have not watch so see if the spin @ launch shows up. The car is not a posi and the filming side was on its non pushing wheel (not sure on how to describe that) Will check though. Will see if I can get someone to tell me how to transfer it from tape to a medium I can host online!

Quote:

Do I give a crap what a slow 60*V6 will do in a 60ft time? No I am sorry I don't- its pointless. I jsut know from a little test I did for comparison curiosity that its about a 16flat car and has absolutely no wheelspin on a roadrace style setup and a 700r4 that is more built that anything on these boards. It is chirping into 2nd now with the 62MM TB

I don't know about your 700 begin built better then anything on these boards?! Mine is built professionaly with every goodie you can put in one. In fact it was rebuilt with all v-8 components! All the extra clutches and such! Was built to hold up to 500hp, obviously it will never see that! But it could take it!

RTFC

Redraif, I have mentioned before that I was very good friends for years with Jimmy Gilante who worked for and then bought Darrell Youngs Racing Transmissions. This tranny has every little latest and greatest trick done to it as well as all mew high performance parts including such things as the sungear, the shell, the planetry gears, 10 clutches, A 10vane pump (13 creates more HP loss and was not needed in this car), A V8 input shaft with a custom one of a kind made 9" convertor that operates at about an 1800prm stall when loaded, and is very positive of the line when daily driving even at 1400prms with a light throttle without heating up.
My internal gears and drum are brand new GM units, not hand selected used ones. The valve body is custom drilled and blueprinted, not an over the counter pro-kit or trans pack tyoe body that everyone uses, I have a billet servo, not the crappy Vette ones, The accululator is blocked for more line pressure. Kevlar bands. A .521 boost valve. A custom matched governor wieghts and springs setup so the unnormal line pressures will shift at the desired points, and so much more that I can not rememcenber all the internal stuff in these puzzles. It is 100% new and completely built for my intended purpose 100%. This was not a V6 oor a V8 trans that was upgraded. It was a V6 case that everything gutted and 100% custom new and built internals put into it. (I also have the very first prototype B&M shift gate installed on the stock gear selector- Thankyou George Laura at B&M for your generousity and trsting me to put it through some testing on a roadcourse)
This tranny was designed to handle the V6 power for a lifetime no problem and was designed to match it specifically so it robs as little HP as possible while remaining completely reliable under very harsh conditions for what I can give it. Its upshifting and downshifting response and holding power coming down into a corner is unmatched to any standard performance 700r4 kit shops buy and use. Unless the work is custom done, they are merely giving you and over-the-counter upgradedV8 tranny pput into a V6 case. My entire setup would probably have cost me about $3000+ had I not been friends with Jimmy. Yes it is built beyond any on this board. He gave me everything at cost and I watched him for a full day put it together. I recipricated with giving him some Tile materials at cost. We were friends (unfortunately do to some personal grudges we are not anymore)

redraif

I appologize. I had no prior knowledge of your tranny build up...jumped the gun...sorry! Have had a few folks riding me about my tranny. They were arguing I was lying and such and didn't believe me till I put them in touch with Neals! So bit sore on the tranny subject!

So I have the 2nd strongest!

Kieth also only used only the v-6 case. Only reused parts were that of my valve body...all the v-8 pieces Keith Neal put in were NEW upgraded versions!

Neal RacingTransmissions & convertors has been and is currently the record holder with the fastest auto tranny! So they are no backyard shop either.

From their site... www.nealtrans.com ...site acting up a bit!
"Congratulations to Steve, Tim, Kelly Tim, and the rest of the Lynch Mob for another great year! As if winning the Fun Ford Championship and being the first automatic 10.5 to go over 200 mph in 2003 wasn't enough, they took their program to the next level and gave race fans an exciting fall season in 2004. After dominating in Orlando at the World Street Nationals by qualifying number one with a 7.11 @ 203.75 and winning the event, they qualified number one in Huntsville with the fastest eighth mile pass ever with a 4.54 @ 166.14. Two weekends later in Englishtown, New Jersey, Tim and Steve broke the 6 second barrier which was the last milestone in 10.5 racing by running 6.96 @ 207.43 and weighing over 3,000 lbs. Again, congratulations to The Lynch Mob, can't wait to see what 2005 brings!"

Dale

iTrader: (12)

as for the orginal post/question. Good shocks, good tires, lsd. Then for racing it, soft/blown up front shocks with no swaybar up front. Then large rear swaybar. But dont do that for daily use.


redraif. I agree with with all your mods, your still only at 134 (yes, I do see that rwhp also) something is wrong. That baby should be humping alot more. I've never understood stall convertors, so I cant help you with that.

If your having problems spinning... is all your suspension geometery correct after lowering? LCA brackets, panhard, pinion angle, etc? Also, you told me one time you have cut v8 springs up front. That is not helping the weight transfer either.

I know with my mods, I can rip a nice pegleg now even with my sz50ep's on Let alone my daily driver no-names

RTFC

Well there's the problem- Redraif, I did not know you still had the open differential.
I figured with the work you had done to your car that you surely had a posi rearend in it.
You can spin all day with a pegleg even with DR's. You are not getting any traction to promote any kind of weight transfer also with an open diff.
I have a posi rear in mine and have very good tires and very good shocks, traction is not a problem even if I were to be putting out 250 hp on this car. Right now I estimate to have about 165FWhp and would probably be around 140 rwhp even with the auto due to very low rotation mass and minimal trans HP loss from the fully built auto that was focused on minimizing drivetrain loss. You need also remember I run a 4lb carbon fiber driveshaft and a 9" convertor.

I have watched Alan's video in the past on his built V6 and can tell from the video that he does have about a good second on me if we were to run against eachother. His car does rev quicker but his gearing is much lower than I ande he will run the traps in 3rd (D)where I would still be at the high end of 2nd or just going into 3rd (D) second. His motor is built, but he has a fairly stock drivetrain- his car is quick for a six though and getting quicker it appears as he works it.

The power level on my Camaro right now is best explained as- if it were raining I can still pretty much always floor it even around corners because of the magnitude of grip my suspension has. Once I get power under it I will have to cautiously pedal it in the rain like stock suspension V8's do. You can do no wrong in this car because the suspension and brakes are way better potential than the engine will allow, and in the rain they are right up to the max potential of the motor. Since I added the 62mm TB, the 1st to 2nd gear shift in a 90*corner under hard throttle is no longer possible with a slight skip of traction in the rain- it used to do it, now it will wash out because of the harder bark when wet. Dry will bark and slightly booble skip, but immediately regains traction setting laterally.

redraif

I only just got the 3.73 in about a year ago! Never figured the power (134) of the car was near enough yet to warrent the posi unit! Have one at Joes' house, just never got around to getting it set up! Though the guy I wanted to have do the work just got his own shop, so perhaps he would cut me a buddy discount!

So after all the new stuff goes in and we see what it will put down on the dyno perhaps I can then focus on the rear. As of right now I had to replace 1/2 the wheel studs cause the previous owner was a moron and cross threaded the lot on one side! Now though the new studs are weak as crap. Never used a air tool on them, always torqued properly, but one on each side is broken and 2 others are buggered up! Amazing how GM ones can last for 20 years, and the aftermarket one can't last a year!

RTFC

Can you run longer studs with the wheels you have?
Reason I ask is I run ARP racing studs because I do my own work on my cars and frequently have the wheels off doing mantinance and tinkering on things, they get alot of use. I frequently use my impact gun to loosen them but retorque them by hand. They hold up great.
I am currently running larger 1/2"x 2.970 studs (equiviant to 13MM) on the Camaro but I used to have the ARP 12mm x 2.5" long press in studs on the factory front hubs and rear brakes. They are an upgrade yet direct replacement in pressin for the factory studs(no drilliung required. I also use to run lightweight titanium racing lugnuts from Kyokugen that fit the 12mm x 1.5 pitch factory stud size on the ARP's

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

what brand of tires, shocks, and lca do u recommend for my car (im getting gta wheels so i need a good p245/50r16 tire)

redraif

Well with the current wheel set up I can't the adapters limit my length. I'm planning to keep the 17s for autocrossing, but getting some larger wheels that will not require the adapters for show use! Still waiting to hear back from MAYA! BUt I will see how long of a stud the adapters would allow and check into that thanks for the sugestion. Heck I would expect ARP to be good!

RTFC

I think it would be obvious to most people that a person will in fact recommend to others what they themself have.

With that said though
Shocks/struts- no other than Koni Yellows for over-the-counter performance dampers ( I do have Koni Yellows on my Camaro)
Next time I redo anything I am going to custom valved Koni 8216 Coilovers on the rear.

Tires- depends on your budget. Most here clam good results from Kumho MX tires in the 245/50-16's and they are very inexpensive. I will never go that route as for I spare no expense buying the best possible tires for my application. I currently run Goodyear F1 GS-D3's in a 245/50-16 and they are very good when new, yet after two years the rubber is hardening and the sidewalls are more giving causing a terrible bobble at low speeds poorer roads that was not present when the tires were new. My next tire on this car will be Toyo Proxes RA-1 in a 255/50-16 that are extrememly soft for daily use and will probably only give me 10 or maybe 15,000 miles of use bfore they wearout. They are in the neighborhood of $200 per tire.

LCA's- Keep the stock ones for now. Much other things better to invst your money in like solid strutmounts and a better panhard rod to keep the chassis feeling more stable under your seat during daily driving.

Every penny spent on a car you may intend on selling some day is a waste of money. I do not recommemd any aftermarket products unless you: 1) Have a safety issue 2) intend to keep the car and never sell it- cars are the worst investment in life 3) you have a part go bad and instead of a factory repplacement, you can buy a better aftermarket product for the same or less than the OEM replacement.

blyth18md

where can i purchase solid strut mounts?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Right now, spohn/alloy specialtys is only option. I belive someone on here said they should have a new version coming out.

I personally have an Unbalanced engineering panhard rod. After 18 months I am still pleased.

As for shocks, koni seems to be most favored. If thats to much cash look at toxico, then if thats still to much, the only over the counter shock I've been able to keep on mine past 6 months is KYB's. Very harsh ride though

AM91Camaro_RS

Dean mentioned my drivetrain being mostly stock... I'm hoping that this summer I can find a good tranny shop to do some work for me. My tranny needs it! I think it might really have more issues than I am actually aware of. I want to do atleast an aluminum driveshaft although a carbon fiber one would be nice!! I have the posi 3.73 rear end but I'm thinking it'd be kind of nice to have some lighter axles in it if they aren't outragous, pricewise. But, time will tell what really happens with it all!

Xophertony

what are solid strut mounts? what kind are stock?

RTFC

These are factory strut mounts with the dust cap removed from the top. Disregard the text on the picture, It was from something else. But notice the yellow circle area is where the factory rubber insert portion of the strutmount. this is what wears out and causes the strut to flex and slop side to side as well as up and down because the center metal ring that the strut shaft mounts hrough rides with the rubber- even when new they flex.

RTFC

Now these are a custom made HMS solid bearing aluminum strut mount. Thes were amount a limited production run of 20 made custom on a group purchase. Spohn offers some very simular in aluminum, but wait a few weeks at most and he will be releasing a new steel version that is much stronger. I am sh*tcanning these once Steve has the first production run availiable in steel. The aluminum has flexed on me around the bearing and the spherical bearing is now knocking in the milled aluminum recess. This will not happen with the new steel ones coming out.

But notice how the bearing is inserted solid into the metal strut mountwith absolutely no rubber insert to flex like the stock strutmounts do. These are what make your car responsive to steering quickly and accurately. Without these solid mounts, STB's (strut tower braces) are useless because the strut geometry is still flex inward towards eachother due to the rubber flexing.

RTFC

This picture shows the strut mounts(blue circles)

The yellow lines represent the angle of the struts (front shocks). A strut is a shock and a suspesion link combined making it a crucial suspension geometry location link. The strut mount is what holds that geometry link in place for good handling.

The green lines show what happens to the angle of the struts under hard cornering. When that geometry flexes inward under cornering stress, the camber changes and the tires can loose contact flat with the road or even worse they flex annd bobble through the corner bouncing the tire patch causing a pulse loaded slip angle and thus loss of traction. The solid mounts maintain a constant camber setting thus a constant tire contact patch with the ground and the STB eliminates the chassis flex of the strut towers from causing the same.

So in essence, you need solid mounts to make a STB effective. Stiffen the strut towers all you want with a STB but without solid mounts, the rubber is still flexing inward much easier than the chassis strut towers are. You need both for good handling.

Now take my car for an example, I have "four" different lateral chassis braces on the front of the car that aid chassis strength and anti flexing keeping the front subframe very rigid and thus the suspension geometry in tact. One being a 3pt STB shown in the picture. The 2nd being a "wonderbar"or steering brace. The 3rd (orange arrow. Orange circles shiow mounting points on subframe) and 4th being custom lateral braces I welded into the the chassis in upper front and just behind and lower than the motor. I also have extremely good grip to cause the need of such braces to prevent chassis flex.

RTFC

4th brace. A trans tunnel brace that stiffens the rear mounts of the A-arms. Thes points will flex together also under hard cornering loads changing camber and caster geometry.

RTFC

Lets also add how I welded bracing to the factory A-arms so the ears (chassis mount points) and the balljoint sections don't flex under stress either.

You guys are starting to learn the secrets as to why this car handles so well

blyth18md

So what you are saying is to buy solid strut mounts, but the ones available currently arent worth the investment, wait until spohns steel version comes out?

Will the Ground control caster/camber plates work with solid mounts? or would that require extensive modifications?

RTFC

The ground control units are inserts that fit into the stock mounts by removing the rubber insert portion. They are not self sufficiant, they need the body of the stock strutmount.

If you look back at that first picture I posted and said "disreguard the text on it", well, take that back. The text applies to GroundControl camber/caster inserts being fitted into stock mounts.

I need to say that I am the only person out of several hundreds of purchases so far of Aluminum solid bearing strut mounts that has had a problem with the bearing knocking due to the recessed machined section of the bearing groove. I run a very stiff setup with the Koni Yellows on max rebound which gives very much a strain on them- hence why I need to steel units. HMS made 20 sets of these and I am the only one with this problem. Spohn has made several hunderd sets of these and he has yet to have anyone with the same problem. I am very hard on parts and run this car very very hard at times with zero deflection so somethings going to give if its aluminum under those forces. Its not just one side, its both.

I personally am waiting for Spohns steel units. GC is good to, but Spohn is my choice. He has made a plate system that mounts underneath the fender that further strengthens the strut tower, and the new steel strut mounts will have a provision welded up inside the underneath to support the use of coilovers with extended top spring pocket travel being inside the strut mount rather than on the face of the under fender giving about 2" more travel clearance for extremely lowering the car. No coilover to date has been able to do this yet, Spohn has nailed it and has a full prototype setup on a car for the past month testing it. The mounts are in the process of production right now and will be releases real soon as soon as inventory can suffice the demand when announced for sale.

redraif

Thanks for the helpful suspension information! I know the car is about ready to upgrade to better shock and struts. You have given me alot to think about. I thought I about had things ironed out, but apartently not!

BMR Strut tower brace 3 point
Wonder bar
34mm & 24mm sway bars
Herb adams adj panhard
Grenatelli LCAs with BMR relocation brackets
PA tubular A arms
Energy suspension bushings
Eibach prokit for v-8 with 1/2 coil removed up front...
KYB struts and shocks...due for upgrade soon as stated...done their daily driving job!

I noticed with my set up that I still had chassis flex on a road course. Felt it & watched the video back and I can still see the car producing body roll (hope that is the right terminology). Sucks it was raining and I could not really push the car...

So I felt something was still missing...hence the thought of new struts and shocks! Also was planing to either box in or make a tubular upper panhard! Any thoughts on that?

On the strut mounts...at my last alignment I got a very reputable guy known as a perfectionist and paid out the yang! Car tracks dead even on the road if the steering it even, but if you turn it slightly off center, away it goes. Still the best alignment I have even had! The guy said he got it as best he could, but with the car lowered like it is he was having trouble getting the geometry where he wanted it! He suggested different strut mounts or shorter struts!

Spohns new steel ones sound like the right choice. I always wondered why the STB nave seemed to make this awesome difference everyone claimed. Now with the rubber in the strut mounts I understand! Makes so much sence I can't believe it alluded me!

Do you have a better pic of it (orange)? Was trying to see where it was positioned...what does this brace do? Looks like it is above the wonderbar...

redraif

I wish you had some pics on a lift of this. You custom made the tubular brace, or did you convert it from another application?

Also is that another brace where the tranny brace usually mounts...tell us some about that!

redraif

So I guess I should say you have pointed out quite a few WEAK points in my suspension that could explain alot of the little stuff I have been feeling! want to get this car rock hard for autocrossing... Mind if I steal a few ideas!

RTFC

i have another angle but the first picture shows in clearly crossing from one subframe to the other side subframe and passes right under in between the motor oilpan and the trans convertor cover.

The wonderbar is 3 feet forward of this chassis bar.

The trans mount brace is the doulbe black bar closer to you in the picture above showing the undeside of the car from rear to front veiw
It was custom made and removalbe using an aluminum control rod with rodends to set frame preload.

RTFC

Here's a side shot of that 4th custom brace

RTFC

Here's the best discription I can provide on how a 3rd gen chssis is factory and how it needs bracing.

TomP

I know what I'm doing next time I have some spare time on my hands... I coated the tops of the a-arms with POR-15 when I put in poly bushings- but I didn't coat the bottoms. I was getting tired and figured I could always do it later...

Those braces- think they'd help at all on the street, or is it just for your slalom courses?

RTFC

Tom, Every time you hit a bump those factory stamped steel a-arms are flexing. That is what is carrying the weight of the car under load at speed and when the springs compress, that iss the metal that is leveraging the springs. So yes they will improve ride quality on a very stiff suspension car. On a stock suspesnion car? I don't think you would notice a thing because there are so many rubber bushings and soft springs and tires that are flexing much more. They are basically like SFC's for the A-arms. The stiffer the a-arms remain, the more the springs and shocks is doing the work of the suspension rather than metal flexing and twisting.

I do still have only urethane bushing in the front ears of the a-arm mounts. but it is better than rubber. I pulled these out when I did the brake upgrade and fianlly replace the worn rubber that was terrible. Made a hugh difference in the feel of the front on this car, yet I am only buying time until I possible get Spohns new Coilover setup that is not released yet (A different one than the current kit, my car is too low for that design) so when I fianlly can I will upgrade the front Comtrolarms to his Chromemoly tubular units with Delrin bushings. I gaurantee this urethane is still flexing but it is hard to notice unless you do a change to delrin and you can immediately feel the differece just like from rubber to urethane. I have run delrin bushings on the vette for many years now.

redraif

Wow thanks again for the info..helps a bunch...I'm going to be doing some welding here soon!

What did that spohn tranny cross member run off hand...worst case I will go look it up!

Oh the one brace I was wondering about that I stated looked like it was above the wonderbar.... in the pic of your engine bay... the 3rd bar you used orange to indicate it!

RTFC

3rd brace is above and behind the steering box. The wonderbar is in front and below the steering box

A= swaybar
B= Still hidden out of veiw underneath is the "wonderbar" or steering brace.
C= the 3rd brace I refer to that I custom fitted.

RTFC

Another veiw of the 3rd brace. Again like the 4th bracket, aluminum tubing and rodends are used for the croos brace so it can 1) be removed for engine maintanace, and 2) since it can noit be welded perminant, preload can be twisted into it snugging the brace with tension forcing pressure against the subframes holding them spread. This is just like a spreader bar setup on a upper and lower controlarm front suspension setup. Yet works in keeping the frame braced here for steering response by rear boxing the steering box and helps support the k-member from any flex from motor weight during hard cornering.

redraif

Very nice! Thanks so much!

Any ideas on the rear upper panhard...

I know there was an aftermarket one, but it was a boxed in stock one and no one has one to my knowledge. Do you think it is at all benificial to beef up the upper panhard?

Xophertony

wow. that is extreme. i am in awe. all hail to you my man.

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

shocks-were can i get koni yellows and whats the price

tires- i think ill get the p245/50r16 bfgoodrich kdws

so i should get subframe connecters instead of control arms for right now?

also i heard i should get a tower brace for when i put my 16inch wheels on there with my p245/50 is that right?

also were to i get solid strutmounts and a stronger panhard rod which brands and prices?

and yes im gonna keep this car forever so im not just wasting money

blyth18md

shocks- I believe these places sell them..
www.spohn.net
www.ground-control.com
www.shox.com

Tires - you might be able to squeeze a 255/50 on there

I think the kdw's are nicer than the kdws can you link the tires youre considering? I decided to try the toyo proxes 4's this time, i got a good deal $95 each for 245/45/17's. Dont have but a few miles on them yet cant tell you how nice they are yet.

Subframes - most people on here will tell you that SFC's and a wonderbar should be towards the very top of your list. Up there with tires and shocks

You might be better off waiting for those solid strut mount. I believe up above there he was saying the solid mount would make more difference than the STB. Though additional bracing is a good idea.