Xophertony

ok, here are STOCK ORIGINAL 2.8 performance #s from 1986 (keep in mind this is a new engine)
2.8 (173)CI 135@5100HP (at flywheel or rw?)

what a great way to get my engine back to WHAT IT DID FROM THE FACTORY! **
or i could spend the money on a rebuild+ and then my car would be in better position for a REAL turbo kit.



*did he dyno the test car or is this a GM original factory number

**(before anyone says anything i know comparing HP@flywheel to HP@RW is like comparing rayburns to golden deliciouse, but there both apples. anyone know RWHP factory original?)

eric17422001

I believe 135 was flywheel with all accessories. BDS got 97 rear wheel with their test car from the way I read it.

V6#22

well heck, I'm getting about 130 rwhp right now without a turbo. Thats not very impressive.

Scrapemaker, I would never bolt on a turbo or a blower to a stock bottomend RWD 60* motor. I am building a bulletproof bottom end motor for my car, nothing stock. Powerwise, its a was of time messing with the stock setup.

ScrapMaker

I'm very sure you're wrong... it even says rwhp... 135rwhp.

edit: how the hell could they measure flywheel hp? I've never heard of that except from manufacturers themselves.

AM91Camaro_RS

i'm very sure he means that the factory measures it at the flywheel (in which case, he's right). and, you measure flywheel hp using an engine dyno. cheap? no. can anybody buy one? absolutely!

ScrapMaker

But I think in this case we can all agree that those hp numbers BBSDesigns is throwing around are rwhp figures.

AM91Camaro_RS

yes, they are. but, 135 at the flywheel (stock) is probably about 110 or so the the rear wheels stock. BBS gained about 25 hp at the wheels. not very impressive on a turbo setup, but, it is a gain.

eric17422001

And given a bunch of miles and such 97 RWHP wouldn't suprise me.

eric17422001

Sorry ScrapMaker if I didn't clarify- 135 horse measured at the flyweel stock with accessories- there was a bit bru ha ha about this on the TPI board the other day, as to how the factory measures it. And as AM91 metioned, 110 rear wheel seems about right.

Xophertony

in case what i posted is in debate the 135 i posted was flywheel BY GM FACTORY. so it was before the car was a car. it was only engine. all in all though, i am not impressed by the bbs designs turbo system.



V6#22:"well heck, I'm getting about 130 rwhp right now without a turbo. Thats not very impressive."

yeah, but dean, your car is hardly an example of normal. not that i am sayng 97==>131 is that impressive (i am not), but yours is not grounds for refference (yes this is a compliment)

BBSDesigns

Just to clarify the dyno tests that we did on the Camaro, here is some information.

Manufacturer's claimed flywheel horsepower.......135hp@4900rpm
Manufacturer's claimed flywheel torque..............160lb/ft@3900rpm

Our stock Camaro rear wheel horsepower........... 97hp@4700rpm
Our stock Camaro rear wheel torque................114lb/ft@4000rpm

7psi Turbo Camaro rear wheel horsepower.........131hp@4800rpm
7psi Turbo Camaro rear wheel torque...............144lb/ft@4000rpm

Since our Camaro had obvious wear, our stock dynoed RWHP was only 97hp without turbo, not the estimated 110hp people here agreed on that the Camaro should've had when new.
Rear wheel horsepower gained by the Camaro with turbo was 34hp @ 7 psi of boost, that's a 35% rear wheel horsepower increase. Remember that the Camaro was tested just like we bought it from the dealer, no compression tests, leak tests or any modification was done to it. Any well kept car with a V6 in good condition should see <u>at least</u> a 35% rear wheel horsepower increase, and at only 7 psi of boost. The turbo included in the kit is capable of up to 450hp, so the turbo is no limit. The kit does not includes intercooler, bigger injectors, etc in order to achive such horsepower levels, but a visit to ebay solves that problem with just a couple of bucks. That's why we dont bother including those parts on the kit, finding new and old parts on places such as ebay are so low priced that we would only be ending inflating the price of the kit making it more difficult for anyone to have one. This way anyone can get the kit and get the car turbocharged in a day with a minimum 35% RWHP increase at a low price, then if the person just wants more hp it can later get the parts he or she needs at a low price ending up with a complete, race type turbo kit for very little money.


PS: We found a couple of local guys here on PR with the complete A/C system on and one of them already bought one kit. As soon he installs the kit I'll post pics of the kit with the A/C.

***Plus; we are now making the turbo headers with curved pipes towards the turbo. Unlike the prototype header we used for testing on the Camaro which had the pipes pointing directly towards the main pipe, now the pipes point towards the turbo. We also have turboheaders only for those interested.

Important note; there's no such thing as magic turbo kit that is better than others "just because". Header design or pipe lenght will indeed afect how the complete setup will work, our kit has a very straight foward design with very good flow and the turbocharger supplied is capable of very high HP numbers with some additional parts. So with this being said there's no reason why our kit "it's not better" "just because". Obviously some members here have their preferences and they will defend their favorite kit supplier because of a friendly relation they have or other. I've seen how diplomaticly we have received some dirt ***** towards our kit with things that really dont matter, but people out there know, they just know and numbers always tell the truth.

Naft

one reason why there is such a small hp gain is the face that THERE IS NO INTERCOOLER.

interecoolers are hardly optional for any decent forced induction setup.

AM91Camaro_RS

what rpm does that thing spool up at?? it seems big for a stock motor.

TechSmurf

Being that I'm getting lazy in my old age and may want to bolt decent manifolds onto my setup and go (other than lopping off the flange and adding mine) when the 3.4 goes in, get some pics of the real thing and I might be an early customer

hot92z

hey BBS I saw the website and i was wondering what about your V8 kit?? What kind of numbers are you getting for that setup and how much?

B4Ctom1

I am a longtime member of TGO and a contributing member (think $) as well. Edgardo is in Puerto Rico, but has no intent in ripping anyone off. He has sold a few kits to TGO members who have had varying results of performance because of the fact that BBS only sells to the enthusiast who wants to do it "their" way.

I have had a speed shop and have purchased turbo kits for various vehicles, mostly imports and mustangs, from Incon and even other overseas companies. I can tell you that the turbo kit companies considered "good" are actually nuttier than squirrel $hit. For example, we once waited 2 years for an Incon kit. When it finally arrived it was missing parts, and the "bolt on" parts required about 80 hours of extra labor to get them to fit.

BBS is not playing these games, because Edgardo keeps it simple.

There are as many options for turbo specifications, as there are opinions on how to fuel them, as well as engine compositions they will be used on, so specifications will vary based on the user as this kit is basically a 75%-90% kit depending on how you look at it.

Because BBS does not sell a turn key kit, he doesnt really make alot of claims about them. All he can claim is the "reasonable" hp level the turbo is rated for. Trying to pin him down on these kind of figures would be like trying to pin down an amplifier company about how many decibels their amp will make on your speakers.


I think a turbo company that offers just the hot part kit with a basic affordable line of turbos is awsome.

Some or most of the turbos BBS sells are the Powermaster turbos. These are NOT to be confused with the horrific "SSautochrome/XSpower/Turbo ZY turbos". I know because I am a big cruisader in the fight to make sure people know about these other turbos that sound too good to be true and are. So don't worry about that.

BBS kits are so cheap because of basic economics.

Lets see here:

Forcing you to buy his marked up price intercooler? no

makes you buy his marked up price fuel system? no

has a huge lab full of well paid employees and a dyno to build computer mods included with kit? no

are you guys getting this?

This is the kit YOU would build if you had the time, space, knowhow, patience, and tools to do it for yourself. Edgardo does have the time, space, knowhow, patience, and tools to do it. Then he asks only a reasonable price.

There is enough stuff involved in building a turbo car, wouldnt you like to just be able to concentrate on the details? I know I would.

I own a P1sc kit, it was installed on the car I am now building into my street legal racer. I was going to upgrade to a D1 or F1, now all I can think of is turbos, I think BBS is my answer. Having someone sell me just the parts I want or need allows me to still make the other stuff (like fuel and intercooling) all mine.

If you go to the power adder forum and ask how to fuel a turbo kit you will get many different answers:

"Just FMU it"

"convert to a 749 Syclone/Typhoon ECM"

"run the 91-92 730 speed density ECM with the modified Syclone/TYphoon (749) program"

"use a Holley Commander 950 ECM"

"Go Carburated!"

"go to a dyno and get a chip burned for your stock ECM"

"Get Accel Gen 7"

"Run F.A.S.T./Speedpro ECM"

"Use Megasquirt"

With all of those choices and voices I can understand why Edgardo only sells the hot parts and the turbos as opposed to forcing people to go one way or the other in his kit. I ike that.



I would like to add that BBS listens to its customers as well. The other kits he offers like the twin kit, and kits that clear A/C and stuff for V8 were based on inputs by members (or should I say turbo freaks) right here on TGO's power adder forum.

So far Edgardo hasn't ripped off anyone, and I don't believe he is going to. He just lives in Puerto Rico and wants to sell something we really want that he knows how to build well.

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

Guys pretty much what Tom just said is not a lie. Ed is a good person that knows his stuff. i just recently bought the single turbo kit for the v8 from him and should be here in a couple days or so. for the price you he's asking its super great, he's also very willing to work with anyone.

right now all i see are people bashing him about a kit he quickly designed to fit these cars and clear everything and is a SIMPLE bolt on. its like a little kid fight in here, my dad can beat up your dad.

look Ed is a good man, not out to steal anyones money or give them crap parts and systems that will defect on them. he's really out here to give something to someone that cant afford that super kit that has the intercooler, cam, fuel injectors and what not. Not everyone can afford that stuff all at once on top of the price for the turbo kit.

ahh well my brain is fried.

Xophertony

thats awsome.

Naft

thats a really enlightening point of view guys, i at least appreciate the clarification.