Crux

I'm pretty sure posts like this are welcome here. I'll simple update this post as I go along.
It'll be a slow-going project but I'll try and document what I can.
I was finally able to get another job and so now I can start working on my car again.
I plan on replacing alot of stuff so it'll add to the length of time it takes.

I'll let this thread disappear until I have updates to give.
As of now I've at least decided to buy the block already remanufactured instead of rebuilding it myself.
$580 for a 3.4l reman short block. (of course it's without the core)

Later all. I look forward to contributing

Crux

Alright. It's time for an update.
I didn't get anything new yet...though I'm putting together a shopping list separated by "definites" and "maybes"
I have a longer list but it's at my house and I'll either just make a new one or get the old one.
Anyway, here's a couple of things off of the top of my head.
Anyone feel free to add your input/opinion on anything in these logs.
While I'm keeping these logs, some information may be a little inaccurate until I learn better so any help is GREATLY appreciated.
AFTER this is all done I hope to refine everything in these logs and in my notes and add in pictures from the swap to create a tutorial.(hopefully fool-proof)
So please, everyone, anyone who has knowledge of this keep an eye on this and if you see something that you think can be a better choice please say so. Even if it's a recommendation for what brand of an item to get or whatever. I really hope this to become a great contribution to the 3rd gen.
community and hopefully not done completely on my own.

I WILL GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT'S DUE.

Alright..on with it, now.

List of Definite Parts to get:
--For car--
Full Engine Gasket Set
New 2.8 heads (160/pair)
Water Pump
Reman. 3.4block(comes with timing chain)
Adjustable FPR
Gas throttle cable(old one is stretched?)
Get 3.4 injectors cleaned(cruisin performance??)

--Tools--
Torque Wrench( recommendations anyone? These things are damn expensive)
Fuel Pressure Gauge
Compression Tester
ALDL Cable
Basic tool set(or keep using my dad's..)

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

You may also want to get some new sensors, replace all grounds, and go over the wiring for anything that may be damaged.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

get extra 13mm sockets. mine kept hiding

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

What is 13mm on this? Most those bolts are 1/2"(which is very close to 13mm) or 10mm. Some are 15mm. You can pull the engine with a 1/2", 10mm, 15mm and a 5/8".

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

2 of the intake bolts are 13mm.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Which two? My entire intake can be removed with 1/2" and 10mm, if I recall correctly.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

The ones that have the AC to intake bracket, or atleast mine do.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Oh, yes, you may be right then. I removed that bracket two years ago with no ill effects.

What's amusing to me is that we're even discussing it in this much detail, heh.

Crux

AWESOME! Thanks for the feedback.
I'm already being moved up from dishwasher/busboy to cook at the sushi/oyster bar I'm working at now.
I'll be going for a loan next week. Bleh..working doubleshifts at the moment.
Okay, enough of that.

To add to the list:..(as maybes)
O2 sensor
MAF sensor//most likely not since I think mine works..will know after ALDL cable?

The car & engine:
Don't mind the seat covers..I'm putting 4th gen seats in there and getting them recovered w/ black vynal and red cloth in the lower back/butt area(know what I mean?)




To add as definite:
Poly Engine Mounts
Ground wires//get bigger-than-stock
Vacuum hoses

This add didn't include much.
And, about the intake..yeah, for me two of the bolts needed 13mm...1/2" didn't fit.(or it was the other way around..alright so the mentioning of this wasn't very helpful)

I'm going to go for the testers and tools before the parts.
Thank you all for the help.
I might add next to everything the cost of it and place to buy it at. I'm not sure about this because once things start going, those details will get tiresome.

fronzoos

its spelled vinyl btw, like the paint, ditch the wheels. Good luck on the swap I might be doing the same on my now current beater car someday. I cant belive how gutless the 2.8 is...

Crux

Eh..yeah, sorry for the misspell.
Thanks for the paint compliment..but I'm not ditching the wheels.
I like the wheels..and while the rims aren't the coolest it's just such a waste IMO so spend the amount people do on good rims.(unless they're crazy light-weight)
I mean..the money would be better put into other areas of the car.

By the way..the front wheel in the picture doesn't look like it has alot of moving room because it was resting on a dead strut.

Thanks for the reply.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

Actually, you could find quite a few good sets of wheels for $4-600. Of course, that would be last to the project you have at hand. Goodluck on the swap. The 2.8s are dogs unless highly modified or boosted.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Your getting poly mounts? Any reason, your going to rattle your teeth out.

Crux

I decided to go with poly engine mounts because I've seen people say multiple times that they're alot better than the stock rubber mounts and it'd be a waste to have the engine out and not upgrade.

Can you tell me more about them?



As far as the wheels go. Alright, I shot it down fast because it has nothing to do with this swap.
But, it's fine..in the end I'll refine everything as needed.
I might go for it, but I'll opt for a new paint job(this thing has ALOT of flaws..including the chipped off front end) before I got new tires...and alot of other things, too. Yup, definitely on the bottom of the list.




The only update I have to offer right now is a dilemma:
The loan probably won't be for more than $300(no credit, blah blah)
I'll be making around $300 on my next check
This'll bring me up to $600 which is nearly enough for the engine block(minus taxes)
Do I
go with the original plan which is to buy the main tools to do the job first, then buy the smaller parts that I can keep in my bedroom until I get the engine block
OR
Buy the block now and let it sit until I have everything?
I don't have any real garage, just a car-port.(as seen in the picture)

I still need to look into torque wrenches..to buy or rent? I'll figure it out but if you have suggestions then go for it.

Thank you all, and later.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

Small stuff first, then get the bigger things since you don't have a garage. That way it's not in your way for however long it takes.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

My friend got poly mounts in his Mazda and the whole car constantly buzzes and rattles, he liked it but I couldn't stand it. To each his own I suppose. Just warning you to be ready for alot more vibration.

For tools/engine I would buy the tools now and then buy all of or most of the motor parts all at once so that you don't loose anything.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Rubber is designed to flex and give to a point. Which to a point, is needed for motor mounts.

Poly is designed NOT to flex.(thus why I wont use it on my panhard or LCAs)

For a daily driver that your likely not going to be racing...replacing your mounts I would suggest, yes. But going to poly on them is a bit of an overkill. A a high hp v8 thats often taken to the track, Id suggest them. My old v6 got beat on alot, and rubber mounts were just fine for it.

Yes they will put more vibration into your car. But it is your money.

Now the transmission mount... YES, POLY!!! it puts vibration in the car, but the way the torque arm is mounted, it kills normal rubber mounts.

BTW, is that a stock color on your car? What paint code is that?

Crux

Thanks for the info!
Rubber it is for the engine mounts.
I'll have to look up about the transmission mount, I suppose. I honestly didn't plan on messing with the tranny at all other than to take it away from the engine. (and *later on* getting it rebuilt)
It's not the stock colour. It's a metallic red that looks orange-ish red in the sun and burgundy at night. I don't know the paint codes but I'm guessing it was originally red. The car's at my house and I've been staying at a friends. I'll check it next time I go.

Update:
I should be ordering the ALDL cable on thursday.
My mom's company(that she works at) has an account with Advanced Auto and Napa so at least I'll be seeing some kind of discount.

Crux

Question(s):
How could a complete engine gasket set for the 2.8 fit on the 3.4 block when the 3.4 is bigger?

Would anyone like a "how to" of the cleaning of the plenum? I mean..I'll probably do it however I can find a way to. Last time I tried I didn't have much luck but it WAS still connected to the engine via two hoses(which honestly I'm not sure what they are yet but they were hell to even TRY to get off)
---
I'm waiting for the sun to rise so that I can take off the intake plenum and clean out that caked-on gunk.
By the way, I'll try and only list things that have to do with the swap..for instance, I'm not mentioning the sub-frame connectors and aluminum driveshaft I'd like to get..nor the tranny rebuild(though it may be due for one)

<b>EDIT: A quick update..I got the plenum/throttle body off and it's sitting in my room now...it's looking like the only way to clean the junk out is to put a cylindrical wire brush onto a drill. It's pretty bad in there and I'm pretty sure it'd be better to clean it out than to leave it this way. Does anyone have any tips on this?</b>

Anyway, here's a little update.


Updated "Parts to Get" list...

Definite?:
Water Pump
Full Engine Gasket kit
Rear Main Seal
Hoses for bypass area in front(dealer item)
Exhaust manifold gasket
Rubber Engine Mounts
Heads
Harmonic Balancer??
Ground wires//get bigger-than-stock
Most rubber hoses
New 2.8 heads (160/pair)
Reman. 3.4block(comes with timing chain)
Adjustable FPR
Gas throttle cable(old one is stretched?)
Get 3.4 injectors cleaned(cruisin performance??)


Tools:
Torque Wrench(click vs. dial?..probably get click)
Craftsman tools (150pc?)
Fuel Pressure Tester
Compression Gauge
Vacuum Gauge
ALDL Cable


Maybe?:
Alternator
Whole ignition system upgrade

***Notes:
Things to keep from the 2.8(or get new):
Throttle body
Intake(plenum & manifold)
Tranny
Torque Converter
Ignition System//may upgrade though
Fuel Rail(but not injectors)
Radiator
Accessories(a/c compressor, alternator, smog pump?)
Timing chain cover
Starter
Oil pan
Harmonic Balancer
Oil filter housing

Misc. Things to Do/Notes?:
Clean, oil parts
Vavle adjustment by compression tester (175-200 compression/cylinder)
THEN lay down valve covers, middle & upper intake
Remove "short oil gear drive off the cam, for the oil pump"
Hook up exhaust manifolds last
Fix seals, leaks, vacuum hoses
5/16" windshield hose to patch?
20-22" vacuum @ idle, 15-17" while in gear
Label Everything
Check ALL waterhose connections



Thanks ALL!

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Get a double roller timing chain and new dampner. Really the only difference in the 2.8 and 3.4 gasket sets is the head gasket bore.

Crux

Sorry to ask this..but can you tell me the advantages of a double roller chain?

Thanks.

By the way..my mom says she MIGHT be able to get me a $1000 loan thursday

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Its stronger and will last longer.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Some parts will fit, some won't. What I found to be the best option is the 3.4L short block gasket kit plus a 2.8L intake gasket kit, then add in the missing pieces, which I believe are only the oil pan gasket and the exhaust gaskets. Search for my thread 'Yet Another 3.4L Swap' in here and you'll see my log.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The double roller chain is basically designed like a bicycle chain, two rows thick. Where if you look at the stock ones, its designed very different.


As mentioned, a late model 2.8 and a 3.4, as far as gaskets are concerned, are the same except for the head gaskets.

Cleaning the intake. I took mine to an engine rebuild shop and had him tank clean them and bead/sand blasted. Then painted some of the parts.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

My cam seal for a 2.8L would not fit the 3.4L. No one sells a cam seal for a 3.4 separately. That's why I bought the short block kit, because it contains all gaskets and seals for the 3.4L short block, plus the intake gasket for the 2.8L, and it came out $40 cheaper than a full gasket kit for either engine.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I never changed my cam seal, so thats new to me.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I built mine from scratch, after having absolutely everything on the block, heads and rotating assembly fully inspected and cleaned.

Crux

Thank you all for the info.
I'm not sure exactly what I'll get next but it'll probably be the tools and torque wrench.

Only update today is that I got a fuel pressure gauge and it's 40psi on prime(key turned but not all the way).
I didn't have the plenum on so I couldn't start it.

The plenum is pretty much clean. You all are probably going to frown the **** upon me..but..well..I took the throttlebody off and took the thing to a car wash and pressure washed it. Right after, I got to a hair dryer and dried it completely..so..no rust. I guess I got lucky? (yes, I looked inside to make sure)
It got most of the stuff off..I'll use a dremel at low speeds to get the little bit at the ports that's left. It made the whole thing look cleaner, too.

As for the throttle body, I'll go for q-tips and alcohol.(or electrical cleaner)

I emailed cruisin performance asking some questions..I should be moving towards that, too.

Thank you all, again.

By the way, if I'm doing this I'll do it the right way. So, I'll go for the double roller chain. The block is coming with a chain on it which is why I hadn't considered it but I'm pretty sure it's a relatively cheap item.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

The TB and intake is aluminum so you neverr have to worry about rust. Since you have it all apart you may as well gasket match your manifolds and TB to eachother and the gaskets. Also polish out the the TB and get rid of any ridges to smooth it out.

Crux

D'oh! lol.
I already have a complete intake gasket set on hand.
I suppose I'll go ahead and smooth it out like you said, too. I'll get some varying degrees of sandpaper when I get the chance.
I suppose tomorrow I'll get the tools and the torque wrench can wait a second until I'm ready to put stuff back together.
Then see what I can get with what I have left..

Edit..as a side note..be careful with those pressure washers even at the car wash. When I was doing it, the sprayer slipped and hit my hand and took off a good bit of skin in an instant.

Crux

I have another very small, useless-to-you-all, but important update.
We were approved for the loan! So, within the next two days I'll be getting $1,000 to put into this.
Though, I work double-shift for the next two days, too...

Hopefully if I spend wisely I'll be able to have a little left for the interior...but..I doubt it since I'm willing to replace everything if need be.

Also, I forgot to mention something that's probably really important information..
..I plan on turbocharging this thing later on.

Thanks for reading, hopefully I'll have some updates soon as I plan on getting the engine out when I can.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

If nobody mentioned it get a Haynes manual. Its a good $20 investment.

Crux

I already have a chilton's..I heard there were few differences.

Update..

Well...apparently either they just gave me the wrong price last time or it went up but they want around $980 total JUST FOR THE SHORTBLOCK.
So, I'll call around but if I have to I'll end up just getting it anyway since it's just $400 more than I expected.
I can afford to keep things moving...just...it'll be a little set back.

Thanks.

bmxerboi221

Dude thats 3 times more than I paid for mine although mine was not rebuilt, But I think you should keep shopping

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

$980 is a little steep. I can get a 3.4 for $150 here locally. Nonrebuilt though.

blindreaper1226

go to car-part.com you can type in your zip code and any part you want including an entire engine and it will tell you where they are at near you and how much. I'm getting ready to begin a 3.4l hybrid swap which I want to either turbo or slap some bottle on. I've found like 8 complete 3.4 RWD engines with 82k on them for around 750. The price is still a lil steep for me so I'm either going to talk them down or ask my buddies dad to get me a price from his guy.. It seems your going in the right direction with this build but take your time theres no sense in paying out the nose for a 3.4l ya know.research n time pays off a lot and in the end you car will be even better

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I paid 700 for a complete 3.4 with a 700r4, 60k miles... plus going and getting it.

I paid 780?? for a complete 3.4, with wireharness and ecm, 45k miles... plus shipping

Crux

The deal about getting a junkyard engine is that I'd have to get it machined and the cylinder walls might have rust and if it has to be machined out, then I'd have to get pistoned and get those fitted to it...and probably/maybe get it balanced.
Plus there's other crap...engine rebuild kit and me rebuilding the block itself which would no doubt involve specialty tools.

Don't misunderstand, I'm willing to do what it takes..but it seems that fixing the block itself is a whole 'nother level that may end up costing around $1,000 anyway.

I just went to car-part.com and they couldn't find anything to match my request for a 1993 camaro engine block in Louisiana.

Should I start looking around on 4th gen. boards? Well..even if I happened to EVENTUALLY(which isn't fast enough) find someone, I doubt I'd trust that much money to a stranger online whether they have a good reputation or not.

I suppose I'll keep shopping around. I'll even try calling Advance Auto about it. So far, though, no luck.

The block was less than $980 but it's $150 freight because they have to order it +$100 core charge that I wouldn't have to give them +TAXES.

I bought the whole car for $800...so I realize how steep it is..but "f-you" to anyone that'll tell me my car's not worth whatever money I put into it. I've seen it said before "you'll end up paying more than a v6 car is even worth" or some crap..lol..I'm not the person to tell something like that to so I'm just throwing this fact out there.

I'll keep shopping around, then...and report any more news.

EDIT: Again, thanks for all of the feedback..it's really encouraging knowing there are people here who have experience doing this same thing.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

check ebay. i got mine w/ 52k miles shipped from Florida to Michigan for under $600. and i didnt have to pull the pistons and all that on mine. all i did was regasket it and put a new oil pump in it, just for the hell of it. there are a lot cheaper ways to go than getting a new short or long block. id keep looking around man, $980 is too much IMO

oh and cleaning parts..... brake cleaner will do wonders on carbon build up.

Crux

Question:
So..will I have to use the 3.4's exhaust or not?

Update:
No update...just headache. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to call Advance.
My dad offered for me to use his 1/2" drive torque wrench. This should save me some $.
Headache from my dad..he keeps trying to include himself in my project. He doesn't think I'm able to do this on my own.
The way I see it, I've earned the rite to work on my own car. I got my own job, my own transportation(friend), I bought the car completely, paid for everything it ever needed(except for bodywork around the windshield & the windshield [because they didn't give me much of a choice]), I've been doing **** tons of research and I look things up before doing any individual thing, I'M the one paying back the loan. Not to mention, I'm the one who actually cleaned all of the crap out from under the car port so that we could actually fit two vehicles.

Being 17 is **** in my situation. I'll NEED help in some situations but as far as picking up the new engine and taking the old one out, I have my friend & brother/s.
He expects me to be ready to get the engine block immediately and doesn't understand that I don't want it just sitting there. I at least want to get the old one out first. Not to mention, I have to make new plans on where/how I'm going to get it.


That includes most of the headache. Other than having to find the new block and whatnot.(and to add..brother and parents borrowing money. I've been living at my friend's for the past month relying on him to get me to work since we both work at the same place..and I try to make it home at least once a week..but it seems every time I do someone's just waiting to borrow money from me)
I suppose I can justify the rant above by reminding you all that the thread is titled "logs/blog"..but I'll try and keep that fustration to a minimum.

Brake cleaner? Thanks..I'll go ahead and get some if I remember to next time I go to the store.

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

Use your old exhaust manifolds. The 3.4 heads and 2.8/3.1 heads are the exact same.

Crux

Woah..wait a minute..
IIRC, the 3.4 heads won't work with the 2.8 intake?

EditToAdd: There's a 160,000 3.4 longblock for $580 at a junkyard..with a 1year warranty. Should I consider and just rebuild it?

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

No no, they will. They're the exact same heads.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Your thinking about the 3400 aluminum heads. The 3.4 your getting is the same iron heads as your 2.8.

Crux

Ah, ok.
I've gotta remember 3400 != 3.4

Anyway..
My mom proposed an idea that I'm considering now..
To buy just what I need to get the new engine block mounted in the car..and then add the other stuff afterward.
Until I call Advance, I won't have any other prices on the short block. And, I doubt Advance will be cheaper than $1,000.
I honestly don't want to deal with a junkyard engine.
The loan place is only expecting around $80/month from me but I plan on paying around $200/month. Once I'm done with this loan I'll be taking out another one for around $1,000 to get the tranny rebuilt.(not doing THAT on my own)
No luck on Ebay..
There's still all of the stuff I want to take care of while the block is out so my mom's plan may not be the best.

I think I'll have to pull the engine I have now before I try to make more plans so I'll be ready for whatever I buy.

Later all.

micktroup

Where are you getting the 3.4 remanufactured block?

Crux

A place about an hour from here called Sattler Supply.(If I get it from there)

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

3.4 (cast iron heads)and 3400 (aluminum heads) are the same as far as displacement, but as far as design and all that, theyre very different. yes they will bolt on, but there is modification to do it. see the hybrid thread floating around here and that will clear that up.

so yes 3.4 does = 3400, but no, not for your application.

Crux

Update:
Got a 190pc. set of Craftsman tools
Finished cleaning a reassembling throttlebody & plenum.
(I used the throttlebody/intake cleaner instead of brake cleaner..it still worked AWESOMELY but in the future I'd recommend to buy more than one can)
I decided to go ahead and buy the $1,000 shortblock after looking around some more.
I'll rent a truck for a day to pick it up.
I ordered the ALDL cable.
I decided to do as my mom suggested and get the block and get it into the car ASAP because everyone likes to borrow money from me.
I start training as cook(which means more $) thursday morning.

When the sun rises, I'll take out the accessories, pictures, and I'm thinking I'll take the rest of the intake off, too.

I'll be facing a few more problems in the near future, too.
The only place for me to work on the car, underneath the carport, has gravel..not cement. So, when it comes to draining the oil and disconnecting the radiator I'm going to have a problem getting underneath there.
I'm pretty sure it's not safe to trust it if the jack stands are on gravel.
I suppose I could either clear the gravel to the ground? Or put the jack stand on thick plywood?
I'll only have to lift the front of the car, right?

Also, one BIG DEAL...my gas tank has rust in it..which I think was the cause of my problems before. I think the rust got through the filter and screwed up the injectors. I don't want to do all of this work just to have the new engine messed up because of the gas tank. I figure I COULD put in a plastic, 4th gen. tank but the problem with that is..well..doing that.
Is it possible to do this with the regular tools?
Should I start new threads for these individual problems?
I've searched it, but I'm not quite sure, still.


Question:
Do you all usually take the whole intake off before pulling an engine?
Where do you recommend I connect the chain to the engine to pull it?
(Honestly, I've never pulled an engine before..)

I'm doing the best I can.
Thanks again.

Here's a pic of the TB&plenum during:
(I was using the metal scrubber to try and clean up the top of the plenum)