project89

iTrader: (1)

OUCH

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Uhhh, so you're comparing ONE failure on a 90* V6 to all the successes of aluminium headed engines in all motorsports?

You will find that the fastest and most reliable engines in racing use aluminium heads.

I also bet that if the rest of the story was told, you'd find that the failure was not due to the head matrial but some greater failure that happened to effect the head. Also I see the cast block has suffereded some damage in that picture too. This indicates that it was not a head failure but an object forcing it's way out of the engine.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i didnt say anything about the 60* heads in general this is just one of my reasons, being forced induction we use our headgaskets to save the rest of our motors should somethign go wrong

this particular motor just lost a head gasket, on a pass with no signs of anything being wrong.

the head gasket went out about 935 ft down track according to the data logs and the driver lifted right away, most of what u see on the block is actually melted aluminum, but the block did suffer some torching but nowere near as bad as the head

but this is typical of something that can happen with aluminum heads on a boosted motor

the car this happened to happened to be a low 9second gran national which also happenes to be a street car

Apeiron

If there's melted aluminum there's got to be something more serious than a blown head gasket going on.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

QFT!!

How about a link to the thread it came from.

I didn't say anything about 60* heads either, I did compare this to the aluminium heads being used in motorsports, you know, NASCAR, NHRA, IHRA, SCCA, OSCA, NMRA, IDRA, and just about any other racing organization you can find.

project89

iTrader: (1)

once u burn out a headgasket to the outside it unly takes a few power strokes to do that to a head @ wot, once theres a path threw the gasket it basically ctyurns into its own sorta plasmacutter/o2 lance

once the fuel air mixture is comprssed it gets blown out of the hole with alot of force and ignites it just melts away at the aluminum and once it gets hot enough it self ignites the mixture

project89

iTrader: (1)

there is no actual thread for it the motors comming apart tommorow its already out of the car, ill see if i can get him to post the data logs (direct scan) of the run there was no knock, no going lean, nothing wrong with the car.

the gasket simply came apart under 25 psi of boost

edit correction 22#'s of boost with 25/22* timing 1stgear/2nd on

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Its such a close up, I dont even know what I'm looking at.

project89

iTrader: (1)

dale look at the mirror thats were the head meets the block

2_point8_boy

The problem isn't with the aluminum heads. The problem lies in the application. If you try to run too much boost on the wrong design motor, then you'll blow head gaskets out the side all day. The heads and block need to have the correct amount of head bolts in the right places to be able to apply the correct clamping force on the gasket. This is exactly what happens when people get a little too excited and use an engine that was never properly designed as as high boost/performance motor -or- if not enough care was taken to properly torque the head bolts down in the correct sequence.

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol that motor is a grand national motor i wish i had 1/10th of the money put into that motor

the point is this is what happens to aluminum heads when u blow out a gasket under boost at wot, on any boosted motor thats a 1,600$ set of heads toast. the only good thing is since it is aluminum it is repairable.

the heads and block may possibly be coming to my shop to be repaired if they do ill get some good pictures of the damage

the block is a hard fix but supposedly the torch mark int he block is only about .020 deep so we should be able to weld the block back up but wont know till we see it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

Dale

iTrader: (12)

ooo, thats a mirror. Looked like a coil pack that blew out the top to me

2_point8_boy

Money has absolutly nothing to do with it. It all hs to do with the amount of boost he was running as opposed to the amount of clamping force applied to that portion of the head gasket. What good is a $1600 set of heads if you can't make it last because you are too excited and run excessive boost or don't take the time to build it/maintain it properly. Now, I do understand that sometimes things happen, but it's not a fault of the head material used, it's all in the application and build.

project89

iTrader: (1)

****************************8

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Look in the mirror.

It's been PROVEN time and again, that aluminium headed engines have an advantage, due to the heat transfer abilities of the aluminium. Threy are lighter as well, that helps get weight off the front end of the vehicle, now why would that be important?

Most Aluminium heads are cast in a way that allows for better flow, due to most being for high performance applications. Aluminium is also easier to work with when it comes to porting and increasing flow than cast heads.

Alumnium heads are repairable. Story as an example.
Earlier this year at an outlaw type event, could have been NMRA actually, but would need to try and find the story again to verify. A guy running an alcohol fed, turbo Chevy engine (IIRC a BBC), blew out the rear of the passenger side head, enough that they could fit two fingers in the hole and feel the top of the piston.
This was on Saturday, they were back out on Sunday, with the same head in the car after welding it up, with a portable TIG, and "resurfacing" it with a DeWalt grinder, an assortment of files, and a straight edge.
they only worried about the combustion chamber since they don't run coolant with alcohol fed engines. There was a hole left into the coolant chambers. I believe they won the event too.

Aluminium heads (other than stock) are outlawed in some racing classes, because they do give advantages that I mentioned earlier.

I'd rather blow out the head as shown above with the lower melting point of aluminium than run a heavier cast head. Using a cast head could have caused more damage than a melted path from the combustion chamber to outside the block. I know I can weld that head back up, resurface it and be back out.

You can keep running your iron heads, the rest of us that want to truely make some power by spending the time in other places will run the aluminkium heads.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i didnt say anything about that ****, alls i was showing is what the **** happens when u take out a gasket with aluminum heads.

and the majority of ppl will not have the money to make such a repair

i know dam well that aluminum heads are repairable, and in alot of cases they are better. but that picture shows one of the reasons i willnot run the dam things..

that torch job on that head is mild, we have repaired heads far worse then that in my shop, id prefer not to have to deal with that.

it actualyl didnt torch the iron block at all the metal we saw and thought was melted cast iron was the head gasket material

that head willa ctually be back on the car and ready to hit the track again by wensday

like in this app all things equal i will take the iron heads of the aluminum ones any day, and as far as the 60* **** i have yet to see anyone putting down anything much better then i am period

but that damage is typical of what u will see on an aluminum headed boosted motor when the head gasket lets lose the majority of the time

what made the damage worse was being under high load and wot/max boost is once the gasket blew out it caused that cyl to run dead lean which caused the damage to be even more.

in this particular application the aluminum and iron heads are the same perfomance wise, only difference is being the wieght savings

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

HAHAHA.

look at midget racing, many of them use or used to use the GM 60* V6, making WELL over 250 HP, N/A, and most with restrictor plates.

There's a particular enging that comes to mind, owned by the Cuman Brothers that was a 2.5L all aluminium 60* V6, with a mechanical injection intake, running EFI, and dynoed at over 300 HP, used for boat racing. If the link was still active I'd post it, but seems that all the old "members rides" threads on 60degreev6.com are missing or dead. Kinda puts your efforts to shame, doesn't it?

project89

iTrader: (1)

hmm boats and race cars, i dont give a **** if its n/a or on alky

any one of the street cars is dead even with me with bigger motors aluminum heads and lighter cars. and im still not even tuned right
i put those cars to shame with my inferior heads

and comparing an n/a to fi motor is pointless they are setup completly different

if i wanted to i could complety change my setup and pull the same times n/a

until somone destroys my times i dont want to hear **** u guys can keep wasting ur couple hundred bucks on aluminum heads to run the same times with bigger motors and lighter cars, while i put that money to better use in other places

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Wouldn't fixing a "broken" aluminum head, be cheaper than buying a new cast iron head?

Once a iron head is broke like that, its broke.

project89

iTrader: (1)

well it wouldnt have hurt the iron head like that aluminum melts at a much lower temp.

the only way it would have hurt an iron head would have been say it happened mid track and the guy kept his foot in it and even then its very iffy as to wether or not it would have torched the head, out of all the motors weve done int he shop which is way to many lol. we have never seen anyone damage an iron head in that manner.

the block that head came off of was untouched

and we build everything from superstockers to top fuel cars and motors.
and of course mild street motors etc

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Just for those of us who are not completely up to speed here, WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOUR TIMES? Have you got some sort of chassis dyno evidence to prove what you are saying?

Just asking, not trying to start a flame fest. I am a little behind the curve since I am deployed overseas right now.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

HAHAHAHAHA, I guess low 12s in a Cavalier, with a bone stock 3400 and remote mount single turbo, and slipping clutch, doesn't "destroy" your "results" then, eh? Oh, BTW, this is in a daily driver.

Just stick with your iron heads, please.

project89

iTrader: (1)

krisw im currently the fastest 60* f-body 13.0@ 104.65 with 9psi of boost on a run that i spun

heading back out this week to turn that into low 12's now that i have a few issues fixed

click here http://videos.streetfire.net/video/L...aro_184829.htm
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again more, boost bigger turbo, bigger motor and lighter car

yeah and my cars a daily driver as well and i am still not running anywer enear what the cars capable of kinda sucks when u max out ur turbos airflow

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Uhhh, single turbo? T3/4 hybrid is not larger than your two turbos, even comparing to your single it's not larger.

But I guess the bone stock part doesn't mean anything, does it? less than 300ccs doesn't equate to much of a difference.

project89

iTrader: (1)

umm what twin turbos, try a small single t3/t4 and the hybrid on that car is much lurger then my single, no runs have been made on the twins yet but that will change this week

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Whatever happened to dave"12secv6"? So you're fully admitting to that sham?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Now I see why he left the boards last time. Everyone get your flame suits on.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Wow! The things I missed while I was away! hahahaha

Oh well, good luck on your 12 second goal, Dave! I do believe that I will continue with my removal of the 60*chevy and install of the Buick 6 when I get home.

Good luck everybody!