goDJ91

First off, I just bought my '91 Firebird 3.1L V6 with 57k on it. I bought from the original owner who had all service records since 91 on it. So it has been maintained very well. I originally wanted to do a swap, but I feel like it would be a waste to swap out this 3.1L in this condition.

Based on my research, it seems parts for the 3.1L V6 is limited and not as cost effective as swapping for another V6.(I'm leaning towards the V6 because of weight and better mpg's)

Like most everyone else, I thought about turboing the 3.1, but that can be extremely expensive.

As far as what I'm looking to achieve with my Firebird, I'd like to break into the 300hp range.

The story with me is I know very little about engines/cars. I do have a family friend who is a skilled mechanic willing to teach me, but I thought it'd be fun to join a message board and learn on here as well. I'm a working college student, so I can't always be going over to the garage, nor do I have a large budget.(I do plan on using some of my financial aid on my bird)

Overall questions: What would you do in my situation? What can be done with the 3.1L V6(max potential w/ bolt ons?).

Any input and help would be greatly appreciated.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Nothing. You're screwed.

LOL, seriously though, you're not going to break 200hp with bolt-ons, let alone 300hp. But some better gears, headers and some tuning would go a long way for you. Check out the diy-prom board and start studying.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

My buddy bought a new 2.8 V6 in 1987. After a little while he wanted alittle more oomph. We did the usual mods: headers, exhaust, chip, colder thermostat, K&N's and opened air boxes, advanced ignition timing. It ran pretty damned well - especially at highway speeds

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

That's only if you don't consider late-model heads as bolt-ons.

What he said. Also, there is the realm of the hybrid swap, if you have the time and money and interest. Seriously, though, most of us have enough trouble getting these little engines to 200HP, much less 300HP, using bolt-ons. However, the 60* has been known by GM to take up to 1.5HP per cubic inch reliably, which is about 280-290HP for the 3.1, if done right. If you really want to push the envelope, a turbo or supercharger, although expensive and labor-intensive, would be a good bet for you.

goDJ91

Yeah I thought changing out the iron heads with aluminum was considered a bolt on. So it's technically not?

Also, I had found a post maybe on this one or maybe on a different site, but someone had gone through upgrades and approx. hp gains keeping the car N/A. I'll try and find it again.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The hybrid swap, for the most part, IS a bolt on deal. There are some minor changes that have to be made to your stock brackets and some work with swapping over to DIS along with some deal with the thermostat housing (haven't been able to get a response on that yet). Getting it to work the way you want, however, will require tuning the computer chips. I would stay with the 3.1 pistons if you're looking for power, as this raises the compression ratio (as opposed to swapping in 3100 pistons like everyone seems to recommend) to about 10.5:1, which is a good start for building power (up to about 175 according to my dyno simulator, which is close to reported 3100 numbers).

You can get a high-flow fuel pump and adjustable FPR and bump up the fuel pressure for some HP. If you were to go with the hybrid, this would be even better as you would probably also like to either build (or have built) matching headers and an exhaust system, which would free up some decent power.

goDJ91

Thanks for the replies so far. I appreciate it.

I found the thread I was talking about in my previous post.
Here is the link:
http://camaroforums.com/forum/archiv...p/t-35901.html

It is the 3rd post by [god]speed that I was talking about specifically.

Input on that guys?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I always laugh when people lay it out like that. Yea rockers will give you 10hp, a CAI 5hp, a chip 15hp and bonus points for every 5 mods you do. That's not how the world works. An engine needs to be designed, not pieced together. With the right parts and proper design you can get pretty good power out of a small motor. Guys running 3500 heads routinely break the 300hp mark. But it's not off the shelf parts, you do need to do some fabrication and have a cam ground that works well with your combination.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Nice, the cheap chip does as much as a cam swap!

goDJ91, I think you're better off staying here.

I would suggest basic bolt-ons for now. Gears & diff, tune, full exhaust, pulleys, port the intake manifold & heads, aluminum driveshaft. Everything else can wait until college is over and you have the budget for a turbo or head swap. Or both.

goDJ91

Haha. Wait!! You mean a Phoenix on my hood will not add any hp?

But yeah, I'm not even registered to that site. I've read on a few different forums, and I chose tgo.

And Jensen, I think that's a good idea for now. What kind of gains could I expect to see from all of that?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It will, but only if you feed and water it. Just don't let it poo on your hood. Damn birds.

Interestingly the v6 driveshaft actually weighs less than most aluminum ones. Go figure.

AM91Camaro_RS

and, IIRC, its a smaller diameter...weight being closer to the axis of rotation is easier to put into motion.

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

Someone on here will port your intake for for $70 + what it costs to ship the intake there, can't recall the name right now. An UDP will make a little difference, but make sure to run a few degrees cooler thermostat as coolant wont flow as well, a home made CAI is about all that's available and that'll help it breath, gears wont add any power but will help you accelerate faster, just don't go too high unless you wanna be screamin at 60.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Depends. I'd be pissed if it didn't make 170, but a good tunner might be able to get 180+.


Well wtf.... Guess I can take that off my weight reduction list.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I agree with everyone, simple bolt-ons like headers with a good exhaust and a good tune are where i'd start.


Down the road if you have the cash and still want to stick with 60V6's then i'd pick up a 3.4 from a newer camaro and start on a 3.4/3500 hybrid.. or even go full 3500 like i'm doing.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

Or switch to a GOOD v6-a BUICK v6

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

lol... With enough boost you can make anything fast.

sloick

ford couldnt with their 3.8 and an M90. Boost is great but finicky.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

I always thought it would be cool to have a v6 5spd car and turbo it, add alky injection, and pipe in a front mount behind the front bumper. How could that not be cool? Oh and it would be a RS with 16 inch wheels. hardtop, ttop, or convertible would be just fine but I've always like the look of the hardtop.

FireInMe17

If you want to get anywhere near 300hp, you need to rebuild, or get a different tranny, stock, a 700-R4 will only handle about 250-275. But Ive heard of built ones handling 600-700HP

goDJ91

I've got a stock 5 speed right now.

pontiacguy1

If you have the 5 speed and ever build your motor to 300 HP, you will definitely need to upgrade your transmission so that you don't leave it in pieces.

Cheapest HP by far is NITROUS! Most of these guys shy away from it. I used it for years on my 1992 V6 Firebird 3.1 without problems. I took my kit off of my car about a year ago when it crossed the 200K mile threshold. With that many miles on the motor and with it being my daily driver back and forth to work, I just don't want to risk it.

I will sell the Nitrous kit if anyone is interested. I had it set up for 75 HP gain, which put the little 3.1 well over the 200 HP mark.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

Is this your DD?

mtwlkn122

Ok first off...


Yes guys its me...im back...i know ive been gone for a long time...cars been up for storage for the winter...still is actually...the truck has taken over my modding for awhile but ill be back to the 'bird soon...anyway story time is over...


To the OP:

Nice find on the car. These cars are great. Your 300hp goal is too high and wont happen on your budget and time.

My best advice to you is if you really are looking for big hp and reliability just follow what im doing with my car...

Slowly build up the suspension and stiffen up the frame and body...keep banking your money and save up for an ls1 swap. Seriously its the best bang for your buck.

Its not that I dont love the 60*v6 motors; but ive been sold on the LS series motors and the potential they have.

...If you dont want a v8 for w/e reason...


Please follow this advice at least...

Build your car to handle the power first...then build the power

300hp on your car will blow the tranny, melt the rear passenger tire, not stop in time, and start to twist the body in half.

If you need specifics on how to build the car to handle the power just let me know...id be happy to help you.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

He forgot one thing, though. Before I did anything else, I would seriously stiffen the body (subframe connectors and strut tower braces), and i would upgrade the BRAKES. Like he said, and I've said many times, there's NO point to having massive amounts (well, not quite with our V6's, but you get the point) of power unless you can control it. Get a decent front brake kit with 2 piston calipers (you won't need more than that), and get a disc brake 4th gen rear with posi, and upgrade the brakes on that. After that, torque arm, lower control arms, track bar (and brace if they make a replacement), shocks/struts, etc. Maybe you might even want to think about a tubular engine crossmember (K-member) as well to help stiffen the front end.

300 HP is doable, but you have to know what you're doing. Personally, I don't agree with the whole "just throw in a V8" thing, for weight reasons, among others. Thing is, along with a V8, you need new engine mounts, new front springs, new fuel pump, new transmission, and a harness swap/rewire. Especially with the LTX/LSX, a good number of which are OBDII. Then your inspection prices go up (at least here in NY, OBDII is around $25 more), and your insurance might as well (they find out you have a V8 and they won't be happy). Yes, you will already need most of what I listed above, but V6 parts are generally cheaper.

I think that's it for the moment...

FireInMe17

Completely agreed.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

LOL, he hasn't responded since the 14th.

If you're getting strut tower braces get solid strut mouts as well. Lift the front end and watch the rubber bushings cave in and you'll see why it's a given. 4th gen LS1 front brakes worked well for me. Swap's pretty straightforeward. I'd go for 13" rotors though, I have 12" and they weren't impressive by any means but waaay better than the stock crap.

FireInMe17

Probably trying to figure out what the hell hes supposed to do with his car then if he wants 300HP!

I WISH I could break 200, even 200 ft/ilbs would be nice, lol

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

lol, 200lbs of spin would be nice. But with a few cheap suspension upgrades you can easily outrun V8 trucks on curvey roads.
I've never had a problem with my brakes not stopping me. If I were to do anything it would be to ditch the POS rear drums and put discs back there..

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

Why do you guys bash the rear drum brakes? I have rear drum brakes on my tr and they hold some boost before braking loose. I'd say they probably hold almost as good as the brakes on my trans am.

Why spend so much time and money on a firebird with a v6? Tubular K-member??? What's he building, a 1000hp car? He's not going to use ALL of his financial aid on his car

Until you get to the engine swap, I would just do a major tune up, check iac counts, clean the tb, bypass the tb coolant, check vac hoses. If I was on a budget, I would hit the junkyard. get front and rear sway bars, and a posi rear from an iroc or gta. If it has disc brakes you will need the proportion valve also. Just as well get some 16 inch wheels while your out there also. Grab the front frame brace while you are getting parts from the iroc/gta also. When you get all this done and still want to do a swap, make a decision if you want a tpi, lt1, or ls series motor. 5.3 ls are cheap. tpi is even cheaper and will get you 400+hp if you build it right. I wouldn't bother with subframe connectors until you get ready to do a swap.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

and don't forgot to check timing and gut the airbox with ac delco filters

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Ah, yet another V8 guy. He didn't read the OP's first post, where it said he wanted to KEEP a V6...

Maybe the tubular K was a bit overkill. However, we all know how weak our front ends are (just how many of us have cracking at the steering gear mount, hm?).

When your drums heat up, I don't think anyone wants to hear how bad you wish you had discs, which only get better as they heat up (with the right parts). Hot drums tend to expand AWAY from the shoes, which causes, among other things, overadjustment. So, you let your brakes cool after a hard race, and you end up with a locked rear. Discs, on the other hand, expand INTO the pads. With slotted and drilled rotors, this is an ADVANTAGE. Besides, if he has the 3.23 gear anyways, he's better off with a different rear, either 3.42 or 3.73 (if he wants the higher ratio against the cost of more fuel for long trips). He might as well go for the whole deal.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

have you looked at my current car???? Pretty sure there's a 6 in there

I guess it kinda depends on what you want out of the car huh?

I see your view on the rear disc swap. It may be something to do down the road, but if he is just going to DD the car, I think upgrading the front brakes would be a better start. I will say I am biased on making stock stuff better. I've been workin on mybuick a little too long I guess and its expensive top upgrade stuff so I'm just used to working within a budget.

To OP, make yourself a budget. Make a realistic plan with that budget keeping driveability and reliability a factor. Sometimes it's better just to buy a car that's already had it done if you plan on a swap. I don't think putting a turbo and alky injection would be THAT big of a feat if you plan on doing it as a later project

FireInMe17

Holy **** my brakes are stock and they are the originals( I have all the records for the car and no papers with any brake jobs on them, and the car was owned by people that let the car sit and had no mechanical experience) and they work REALLY well, my brake pedal is sooo nice, its not spongy or anything, as soon as you start to press down on them, they start to work and slow the car, and i tell you, theyve gotten me out of some sticky situations lol

AM91Camaro_RS

actually, the crack in the frame by the steering box has nothing to do with the k-member. it has to do with wide wheels and a lack of a "wonder bar". the stock k-member is actually much beefier than an aftermarket. (think single tube vs. stamped steel and much larger).

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Have you weighed it?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...different.html
Thread seems to indicate the v6 and v8 driveshafts are the exact same piece.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

Yes the driveshafts are the same

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

So, an LS1 shaft would be a weight decrease.....

Drew

iTrader: (58)

V6 horsepower dreamers make my head hurt. The question isn't always is it possible. Possible is one thing, practical is another. For the dollar spent, and the return on investment, the V6 just isn't the best choice for performance in these cars. For what it will cost the average every-day person, it's always further ahead to just start with a V8 car. If you want the most performance per dollar in a thirdgen, look for a 89-92 L98. If you're talking about an engine swap, the best bang for the buck is going to be a 89-92 L98 donor car, or an LS1 swap. I'm sorry if that hurts feelings, but it's the truth. If it were so easy to build a rip roaring 3.1, there'd be more of them out there and less of this hypothetical bench racing. It's not a popular choice or opinion, because for most people it's not realistic.

goDJ91, it sounds like you've got a nice car. My honest opinion and advice is that you'll be best served to leave the car alone. Do small upgrades if you want, but don't expect 300hp out of a V6. That goal would take a lot of money and work, you'd be further ahead to sell your car and put that money with the money you'd spend on a hardcore V6 build and just buy a car with closer to 300hp to begin with. Horsepower costs money, there is no magic bullet. The closest thing to an easy horsepower boost is nitrous, but it'll drain your wallet VERY quickly. On a long enough timeline it'd be cheaper to do a V8 or a turbo swap.

A turbo swap is probably the next cheapest, least effort, most rewarding, but if you're not familar with it, you're going to invest a lot of time and effort getting up to speed. A turbo would require fabricating virtually everything on your own. If you're not capable of doing that, we're back to 'sell it and buy something with a V8.

A V8 swap requires a ton of parts to do the job right. If you can find a donor car under $2,000 it'll probably be the cheapest way to do it. There are enough differences from year to year, that piecing together a swap from the classifieds, junkyards, craigslist, etc takes a ton of research so that everything will function together. When you're all said and done, you can still buy a nice 350TPI thirdgen for about $3000. What's your time and labor worth?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

you guys just need to think outside the box a little more. There is plenty of power to be had from these engines. You just need to use the right parts.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Agreed, just look at all the japenese v6's that can push as much as 900 hp with enough money in them, I mean hell a mitsu 3000gt vr-4 can hit 400 hp bone stock(just turn up the boost) with a 3.0l v6, a toyota supra, mazda rx-7 and nissan skyline also lay down very impressive numbers using v6's.
Not saying v8s aren't good, and mod for mod the v8 will win, and each has it's pros and cons, but sometimes its just easier to work with what you have, I don't have enough tools, room or money for an engine swap, so a hybrid is a great cheap alternative for me, and I had to rebuild the engine anyways. And if memory serves turbo89 or w/e it is with a turboed firebird v6, has like 360 hp and 460 ft lbs of torque, and thats with iron heads and a single turbo I believe, imagine what a twin turbo hybrid can get.
And just to throw out a price figure here for my 3x00 head swap:
*complete 3400 intake manifold ie. throttle body, fuel rail, injectors-$126 shipped to my door
*3400 heads with full valvetrain(not counting pushrods, but custom length are needed anyways)-$125 brought to my door by seller with a 3400 LIM and 3500 UIM...which I turned around and sold for $25, so $100
*3.4l RWD timing cover, harmonic balancer/reluctor wheel and oil pump drive-$56 shipped to my door
*MLS stainless steel viton coated reusable high CR withstanding head gaskets-$156 shipped

So $438, and I'm sure stuff can be found cheaper, only things I still need are pushrods, and ICM module with coils, headers, and LIM on up gaskets, about $130, $50, $300, and $80. So for about $1k you can do this, and lay down what I estimate to be in excess of 200 hp at the wheels, enough to rival most stock 3rd gens, You'll also have an engine with a top end rebuild giving it probably an extra 100k miles of life on current build, depending on mileage. Also bear in mind, yes a chevy 350 is easy to come by cheap, but how many of us have engine cranes lying around.. Lets say you find one that runs decent for $500, its probably going to be at least as much for all the accessories you'll need to make it run, and probably a grand or more to pay someone to do the swap for you, so 1k vs 2k. Then consider this, the v6 will have the turbo option, which would put out as much as a tuned N/A 350 would if not more, but how many people actually turbo a 350...not many because its more power than most people are after.

But of course this is all just my opinion, the decision is up to the reader..

Project 3.4 Camaro

Also I can't say for certain, but I'm betting 300 hp is obtainable with a well tuned N/A hybrid.

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

Most people don't turbo a 350 because you can't use cast pistons and the stock cranks can only take so much abuse.

I wouldn't bother on putting a turbo on a 3.1 if it come down to it. weak cranks, have to get custom pistons, custom headers, custom downpipe and wastegate, calibrated MAF, calibrated chip, trans mods, etc.

It would be much cheaper and easier to throw in a IC turbo buick v6. 2500 bucks could get pretty much everything

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Sorry to nitpick, but none of those have v6. Supra and Skyline were I6, RX7 was rotary.
But yes, impressive numbers but they were built for performance from the factory. Our engines were not.



What is wrong with the crank and pistons? They're good for 12s at least.
Headers, tune and trans mods would be needed on any engine swap.
Buick 3.8 would need new trans, radiator, mounts, wiring, etc. Hardly easy or cheap. Plus after it is all said and done you'd have a heavier engine with only 250 hp. Might as well swap in an L98 for all the hassle and expense. Yes, LC2 has higher potential, but you're either looking at mad cash for a rebuilt one, or cheap money for a crapper that needs a rebuild. $2500 would buy you a properly running engine, or a beater and a rebuild. Turbo 60 degree is way cheaper for that power level.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Technically speaking yes, but they have comparable displacement levels which is what matters for the point I was making, and there's not really much difference between an engine that's fast from the factory or beefed up with aftermarket parts to be, because for all intents and purposes, a better part is a better part. If you mod an engine to be fast, you replace pretty much everything but the block when all is said and done, and blocks don't make the power, displacement aside, which is exactly how they make more power on a factory engine, by throwing better parts at a block.
From all the research I've done, theres only 2 week areas for max power on our engines, and thats oiling, and the fact that our engines our pushrod, everything else can be overcome, and I think the oiling can be too for that matter, also just going to throw this little fact out there, there is an aluminum 60v6 block that was made by gm.....you don't make an aluminum block for an engine platform that doesn't have power potential.
Also last but not least, I tend to agree that if you're going to go to the trouble to swap in a different engine platform, to go with a v8 if you want power, its not anymore trouble or money than retrofitting a different v6 platform.

Last but not least, heres the end all solution
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/new_engine_chevy.htm
"572 BBC Intercooled Twin Turbo Dual Fuel Technology
Big power with this Big Block 2500 HP and 2300 TQ race gas/
methanol mix and 1700 HP and 1700 TQ with 91 octane pump
gas/ methanol mix.
Tired of changing valve springs, peeling pistons off with nitrous
or killing main bearings with the PSI’s. That day is done with
this engine. On a average around 10X as reliable. Your only
obstacle with this engine is sorting out the chassis. Think
about running 4 seasons with out a motor rebuild. It’s reality
with this one."

usetaboost

iTrader: (1)

2500 will get you a RUNNING motor, trans, wiring harness and ecm and accessories needed except crossmember. Do all bolt ons and mods witha good tune it would be a low 11, hi 10 sec car and still won't have to do a head or cam swap. It's been done. I'm not saying this is the best option, but it would be a good bang for the buck option in the long run. IMO, a 5.3 truck ls motor would be the cheapest option for power.

If you slap a turbo on that stock motor and get it into the 12s for a reasonable amount of cash let me know, I'd love to see it (no sarcasm here, it would help with getting my friend to buy a cheaper fbody).

BTW, I rebuilt my lower end for 600 bucks.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I threw a cam, headers, some porting and a good tune at a stock 3500 V6 and made about 320 HP. Hoping for 350 HP/300 TQ when it all goes into my '89 RS after a rebuild and a different plenum setup.

There is no reason a 3.4/3500 hybrid couldn't do the same, that even has the advantage of higher compression where i'm stuck at 9.8:1.


on a 3.1 with stock pistons, a ported 3400 top end done by someone who knows them well, a 3500 UIM with good headers and a good tune 300 is possible. The cam would have to be pretty extreme though, not very fun for a daily driver. boost that combo with a milder cam and dished pistons and 300 would be easy. There are Jbodies putting down 350 WHP on stock 3400's with boost, 10-12 PSI.

I know of one that was shooting for 500-600 WHP, he's still putting it together though... http://60degreev6.com/forum/f96/finally-finished-t41797

auto-x1990RS

LOL

i started that thread. i still haven't gotten than damn v6 to start again


really, about the only way to make any kind of decent power out of a 3.1 is boost.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I weighed mine a while ago and it was 1 or 2 lbs less than what someone else posted for the weight of their aluminum driveshaft, or maybe he put up the wrong weight. Maybe it's another freak of nature that is my '85 camaro. I've noticed a ton of stuff on my car that's different from earlier and later cars. '85 seems to be an oddball for some reason.