Fallen2603

Okay, I am committing what might be, especially to you V8 proponents out there, the ULTIMATE SIN...I am swapping to a V6. Yeah, I know, don't overreact. It's just the direction I want to go. That being said, I definitely don't know as much about the 60* V6 as I wish I did. So, if I could get some advice or help from anyone out there, I would GREATLY APPRECIATE it. Here's what I got planned for the build thus far:

BLOCK: Starting off with a 3.1L V6 from a '92 Camaro. Going to have it gone over, bored out, and set up for a hydraulic roller cam.

ROTATING ASSEMBLY: I'm going to swap in the crank from a 3500 because it's forged. Yes, I know that I could make some good power off of the cast crank, but I just like the idea of having forged internals for a turbocharged build. I'll probably reuse the stock rods because everything I've heard about the stock rods is that they are forged from the factory. Unless, I'm wrong. The pistons will be forged pieces that will match the bore of the block, obviously.

HEADS/INTAKE MANIFOLD: I'm gonna swap to aluminum heads, so I'll have to swap to the aluminum intake manifolds. If I'm understanding what I'm reading on the other threads, I can swap to the Gen II 3100 heads and intake manifolds. The heads will be ported, polished, and have a stronger valvetrain. The heads from ARI or Mantapart are probably what I'll go with. Along with the larger throttle body.

EXHAUST/TURBO: I'm planning on doing a remote/rear-mount turbo. I've been told that they're a good way to go, but I've also been told that it's not the best way as well. I'm going to give it a shot, and see what happens. I'll be using the PaceSetter headers, ceramic coated, a high-flow cat, and the Dynomax cat-back exhaust system. Around the area of the rear axle, probably just a bit behind the axle itself, I'll cut the exhaust system and have the turbo flange welded on. For a turbo, I'm planning on going with a Turbonetics T3/T4. For exhaust, after the turbo, basically a 3" pipe with a straight-flow muffler exiting at the center, under the rear bumper cover.

IGNITION/ECU: Since I'm switching to the 3500 crank and the aluminum heads/intake manifolds, I really have no choice but to go with DIS. I'm still a little in the dark on how to make this swap, but I'm hoping someone reading this can point me in the right direction. For the ECU, I'm going standalone by ways of a MegaSquirt or something comparable.

Okay, I think I've covered just about everything...I think. Now, I'm not hurting for money, as some of the parts I've listed here might suggest, but I'm not going as crazy as I could be. I know that there are cheaper ways to do what I'm doing, but I'm wanting to get as much of a bulletproof setup as I can. I'd like to get as close to my transmission's limits of 600rwhp and 500lb-ft. If I reach my torque limit before I hit my horsepower limit, as I think might be the case, I won't be unhappy. I'm thinking an 8.5-9:1 compression ratio, and thinking no more than 25psi of boost.

If you have any information that could help me, I'm all ears. Like I said, I don't know everything. I'm looking for as much help and advice as I can get. THANKS!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

1. Don't quite know if the 3500 crank will fit in the 3.1 block if it isn't already the same size (stroke length and throw) piece with a different bore size from the 3.4 (which has the 3.1 crank). Someone can verify this.
2. You can't use PaceSetter headers with the 3x00 series heads. The ports are too small in relation to the head ports. You'll need to make your own or have a shop do so for you.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

the stock crank will handle a good amount of power and so will the rods...the pistons you can get forged but they are costly and custom made.

no one has done a rear mount on a v6, and as always with a v6 your going to be making almost everything. your in luck though the few people that have done a turbo v6 are floating around here(mines almost done)

also if your gonna go threw the trouble start with a 3.4 block instead, and you can get t3/t4s on ebay from 130-200 bucks

if your going with megasquirt once again your in luck there is a tune for this already thanks to dave and an updated one coming from mine

im sure dave will chime in soon

Fallen2603

Maverick H1L
(1) From everything I've read, the 3500 crank will fit...once some modification to the crank has been made. I believe the main journals have to be ground from 2.100" to 1.99". The 3500 crank also has the same stroke as the 3.1L crank, 3.3".
(2) Ugh...WONDERFUL. Hmmm...wasn't counting on that...DEVELOPMENT. Thanks for the heads-up.

Pillsbry10
I know the stock crank will handle a lot of power, examples like daves12secV6, among others, leave me with little doubt. However, I like to overbuild things. Just my way. And I've also been watching your build with some anticipation. Be sure to post some dyno results!

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

hmm... i wonder how much a forged crank for our engines run, id still say start with the 3.4 block if you can find one cheap though

and dont worry itll be posted as soon as its running with build pics and video

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

A 3.4 block or better yet a fwd block (if you can afford a tubular k-member) would be the best way to go, but you can do DIS with older stuff as well. Here.

Fallen2603

Pillsbry10
I've found OEM replacement 3500 cranks, which are forged (provided my sources are right), for around $500-$600. The machine work would be on top of that. Hopefully, no more than another $500 for resizing the main journals and balancing the whole rotating assembly. You should write out a build sheet too, man. Or, are you trying to keep "trade secrets"?

bl85c
Thanks for the link!

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Search my started threads

I think I paid 600 for just my pistons but that was like 6 years ago.

Fallen2603

I've already looked over a few of your threads. I'll go through them again more thoroughly. Yeah, I think that's still about how much those pistons are going for. Oh, well, "You get what you pay for" and "Speed costs"...LOL!

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Just use a FWD 3x00 block and notch the K member


the rod pins are 2.25" on the 3500 crank, they need to be ground down to 2" to use the stock forged rods, the mains are the same size. Only the 7484 crank is forged steel, there is an iron version out there as well so watch out for that.


MarsMan over on v6z24.com swapped a 3400 into his Camaro and just notched the stock K member, he's been driving it for a month or so now and i haven't heard of any problems. He said it's MUCH faster than the old 2.8.

here is the topic: http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/also...*-t112374.html

cj92firebird

You could also use this system for DIS. Its quite pricey though.

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/hpx.html

Fallen2603

Purple82TA
Yeah, I probably should have just gotten a 3x00 FWD motor and gotten it to fit, but I've already got the 2.8L. Oh, yeah, it's a 2.8L V6. Not a 3.1L I'm not too heartbroken, but it means I do have to get a new set of rods.
Oh, okay, I knew that it was either the rod or main journals, but I couldn't remember which exactly. Thanks for the correction.
If I were to decide to go with a 3x00 FWD engine, which one would you recommend Purple82TA? I'd like forged internals, the ability to hook up my T5 transmission to it, and the ability to turbo it. Any suggestions?

cj92firebird
Thanks, that setup looks awesome. How much do the cost usually?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

id make you a build list but to be honest, i cant remember everything as i built the motor a long time ago, if its not in any of my threads i probably dont remember lol

honestly starting with a 2.8 isnt worth the effort, either go with a fwd block or a 3.4, depending on how much work and fab you can do

im hoping i get what i paid for when this is done...you dont even want to know how much money ive got in the engine much less the car, its retarded cuz i couldve built a 1000hp v8 already but noooo i wanted to do something diffrent lol

Fallen2603

Pillsbry10
LOL! It's all good man.
Yeah, for the "most bang for your buck", I'd agree that the 3.4L or the 3x00 FWD motors are a better way to go. I'm going with the 2.8L just because it was the cheapest place to start with a really in-depth build. I'm a bit of a "control-freak". I want to know exactly what is going into my engine.
LMAO! Yeah, I'm starting to feel kinda the same way. I'm going to be doing a lot of work on this set-up, I know. But, hey, at least you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that YOU put that car together and made it your OWN. I had planned on just going with another V8. Hell, I went out and found a 383 stroker motor that was already doing 450+HP, but after I saw all the V8's at ThirdGenFest, I just wanted to do something more...unique.

chevyracingrox

double post, sorry.

chevyracingrox

are you sure it's not a 3.1? I know the intake said 2.8 but you can't go off that because it came off the original motor my car came with. unless you already tore the motor down and measured differently than a 3.1. personally I would go with a front mounted turbo because with a rear mount turbo, the extra plumbing for intake, oil lines, and probably coolant lines too, are going to complicate things.

Fallen2603

chevyracingrox
Hey man! No, it's a 2.8L. My buddy and I tore the engine all the way down today, and, right on the crank, it said 2.8L. Not a big deal, just have to get new rods now for the stroke that will match the 3500 crank.
Yeah, the only reason I was going to go with the rear-mount turbo was because I thought the PaceSetter headers would work with the aluminum heads. I figured that I'd just use the PaceSetter headers and the Dynomax exhaust system and just modify off of that. But, since the PaceSetter headers won't fit any of the aluminum heads, I'm going to go with a front-mount turbo. Hell, maybe even twin-turbo!

chevyracingrox

twin turbo sounds pretty badass. while you're making 2 custom headers you might as well right? I can't believe all this time I thought I had a 3.1L in my Camaro, oh well though. I used to have an Eagle Talon, Taylor said he already told you about it, but I've got some experience with turbos from it so I can pitch in my knowledge with that. have you considered simplifying your project a bit to get it running quicker. GenII and III heads are great, but they take a lot of time and money. you might want to just focus on putting the turbo on first and going from there. helps the learning curve a bit.

Fallen2603

chevyracingrox
Yeah, that's the idea. It's either build two custom manifolds to somehow connect to eachother and dump into the same turbo, or just build two custom manifolds that dump into their own turbo. My buddy and I feel the second option is a bit easier, and probably better in the long run. Should be FUN!
Yeah, I remember him talking about your Talon TSI. My buddy wants to get one, but he doesn't have enough money, naturally. He's got a pretty good knowledge of turbo's as well. We were thinking of two turbo's similar to Mitsubishi 16G's...I think.
I'm not really pressed for time with the Camaro. My Cobalt SS is a SOLID daily driver, and, once I start going back to school this fall, I won't be driving much anyhow. I'd rather take my time with the Camaro, and do it as "RIGHT" as I can the first time. Besides, if I were to fabricate a set of manifolds/headers using the iron heads, I wouldn't be able to use those on the aluminum heads when I made the swap later...

AM91Camaro_RS

not to mention, you'd need different pistons to keep the same CR between the two sets of heads.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

the 2.8 and 3.1 use the same rods, just different cranks and pistons. The blocks are pretty much identical.


For the power output you are going to get out of this build a stock crank will be fine, and you'll save hundreds by not needing to modify a 3500 crank to fit. Plus the 3500 crank does not have a 7x ring for DIS, you'll have to run an external crankshaft trigger.

Many people have pushed the stock crank well over 400 HP with no problems.


I'd stay away from Mantapart and ARI, and the Gen2 aluminum stuff is a waste of money as well (they flow about the same as the iron heads). Go with a gen 3 3400 top end, and if you want some built and ported heads talk to Ben at Wot-Tech, he's the best in the business.


The headers made for iron heads will work with the aluminum heads just fine, you just need to slot the holes vertically because the bolt spacing is about 1/8" wider.


You must have a ton of cash tied up in that T5 because there is no way a stock one will hold up to 600 ft-lbs of TQ, they have a hard time holding up to 300. That's exactly why i went with a built 700R4

chevyracingrox

Tell your friend DO NOT BUY A DSM!!! The AWD and turbo make for an incredibly fast car, but it's not worth it. I spent over 3000 in an attempt to keep mine running over the course of about 6 months. I only got to drive it about 110 miles because it was so prone to breakage. Mine was a 1G 6-bolt, but the 2G shares the same bad reputation along with crankwalk.
A 16G would be a good starter turbo, but it won't get you the power you're hoping for. A 16G has the same TD05H compressor housing that the stock 14B uses, it just has a better compressor wheel.
where do you go to school anyway?

Fallen2603

AM91Camaro_RS
Yeah, that too...

Purple82TA
Huh. The connecting rods for the 2.8L and the 3.1L are the exact same length? Weird. Oh, well, one less thing I have to get!
Yeah, I know the cast crank would probably take the beating. I'm just OCD about some things. If I can get forged without spending thousands for a billet crank, I'll do it. I've found the crank for around $500 from distributors, but I have no idea how much the machining work would cost.
Oh, okay, I didn't know that the Gen II stuff was that bad. What's wrong with Mantapart and ARI? Do they have a bad rep? SWEEEET! Thanks for the hook-up with WOT-Tech!
Those PaceSetter headers will work with the aluminum heads with just some slotting/hole-enlargement?! SWEEEET! The rear-mount turbo is back on!
LOL! Yeah, first off, I had to find a World-Class T5. Got scammed by one guy, but I've managed to pick up two since then. There's a company called G-Force that rebuilds T5's to handle up to 500ft-lbs. That rebuild is around $2,000. I'd rather have a manual than an auto. Manual is just more fun to me.
Thanks for all the help man! You're AWESOME!

chevyracingrox
LOL! I'm not into imports like my buddy, but I doubt me telling him not to buy a 1G DSM will stop him. He already knows most of the things to look out for and what to upgrade.
The only way I'd be going with the 16G is if I were doing TWO of them. But, since it looks like those headers will fit the aluminum heads with some mild modification, it's back to the rear-mount turbo. Hello Turbonetics T3/T4!

I'll be going to school at NIU. It's a pretty sweet deal...

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

you are probably looking at 300-400 in machine work and then an extra 120 or so for an external trigger to use DIS.

For all that extra cost you could easily pick up a whole 3500 and swap that in, change the valve springs out for some Comp 26986's and boost it as is. you'll find the limits of your trans really fast


ARI has been full of crap for years, they sell stock GM stuff as "performance parts". They are just a typical middle man adding a markup on parts you can get elseware for cheaper.

Mantapart has lawsuits pending against them, they have screwed more people than you can imagine.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

ARI tends to forget to charge you for parts lol I got a deal

Fallen2603

Purple82TA
Does the 3500 come with forged rods and pistons to go with the forged crank? What compression ratio is it running at? How much boost do you think I could safely push into it on pump gas? Do you think I'd be better off modifying my stock crossmember, or could I get a tubular crossmember that would work? How much would a 3500 run me?
Thanks, again, for the heads-up on ARI and Mantaparts. I hadn't heard about that stuff till you told me.

Pillsbry10
LOL! What all did you get a five-fingered discount on?!

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

the LX9 with the forged crank has forged powdered metal rods which is the same style that the LSx engines use. I don't think anyone has broken one yet but i'm sure with detonation anything is possible. I spin mine past 7K all the time so they can take the RPM's for sure.

the pistons are cast but with a good tune they'll hold 10-12 PSI, 9.8:1 scr stock but that's fine to boost with. I'd calculate the dynamic compression with the stock cam specs and maybe the same with a few different cams that wot-tech sells, you'll get that to drop down depending on the specs.


10 PSI on a 3500 would be very fun, you'll need a bigger turbo though.


i paid around $500 for my Spohn K member before i found out that i didn't need it.. it's a very nice piece which is why it stayed on the car instead of putting the stock one back on. For $20 in plate steel you can notch and box in the stock one and it'll work just as well. There is no significant weight difference between the Spohn and stock either.


i got both my 3500's a few years ago, the one in my Camaro had 678 miles and was $610 and my parts engine had 53K for like $500. Now is the time to get them before they start turning up with over 100K and the prices go up like they did on the 3400's.

we just put a 3500 in a friends cavalier and i think he paid around $500 for it with fairly low miles.

Fallen2603

Purple82TA
Hmmm...this is starting to get VERY INTRIGUING.
Just jumped on Car-Parts.com, and found three LX9's within half an hour from me. All with less than 20,000 miles. All of them for less than $600.
Now, I could rip this apart, get a set of lower compression pistons made up, have the heads and manifolds ported, and...I'm pretty sure this thing would FLY! Hmmm...do you think I could use the connecting rods out of the 2.8L that I have? I know those are forged, but I don't know if they're the right length. Wait, they're the wrong size rod-pin hole, aren't they?
If they won't work, any idea where I might be able to find a set of 4340 forged rods that would work?
What kind of turbo would you suggest?
This is a very intriguing idea, but I just want to sort out some of the details first...

Fallen2603

Purple82TA
Oh, and will those PaceSetter headers still bolt up to the 3500 heads with the slight modifications you mentioned earlier? Since they're a 3x00 series head, I'm guessing they do, but I'm OCD when it comes to details. LOL!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Like I've said before... The PaceSetters won't work with the late model heads as the primaries are too small. However, RKSport makes a set with larger primaries that can be modified by enlarging the bolt holes to match the late model heads' bolt pattern.

https://www.rksport.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=377

They're for a 4th gen with a 3.4, but if you have the means to make some minor adjustments to the pipes to fit, they'll work.

Fallen2603

Maverick H1L
Purple82TA says that the PaceSetter headers will fit with just a little bit of modifcation to the bolt/stud holes. I don't know which of you is right. Honestly, I'd love it if you were wrong and Purple82TA were right, but, unless I see a picture of the slightly modified PaceSetter heads mounted on the 3x00, I can't say for sure that you're wrong.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I asked someone to measure the ports on the 3x00 large port heads compared to the 1.5" primaries on the PaceSetters, and the ports are 1 5/8" on one axis... Which is larger than the 1 1/2 inch primaries on the PaceSetters. It's not much, but it could cause problems. Besides, if you were to enlarge the ports, this would only get worse, which is why the 1 3/4" primaries on the RKSport headers makes sense for hybrid use.

:edit: The ports on the 3x00 heads are "D" shaped, not round or oval like on the iron heads.

Fallen2603

Hmmm...I can't really argue with that logic. Ugh...oh, well. I guess I could make the 3.4L RKSport headers work. I just wish they came painted instead of ceramic coated. I hate the chrome ceramic coated look.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You will have to slot the top holes on Pacesetter headers for the ports to line up. Since GM raised the roofs of the ports, it is only the top mounting hole that was relocated. I have done this a time or two

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You mean like this?...

http://s448.photobucket.com/albums/q...rbo/?start=all

Fallen2603

firstfirebird
Ummm...yeah. Just like that. That's a PURDY sight, man. You build that set-up yourself?
Would you say using the PaceSetter headers, after they've been modified, would work for what I have in mind? Or would you side with Maverick H1L and suggest the RKSport headers?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

1.5" primaries are too small, the headers will physically bolt up but with primaries that small you will restrict power.

building a set of headers isn't very expensive, if you are as OCD as me about things then that might be an option to consider. I put about $200 in materials into the 1 5/8" diameter longtubes for my 3500 but i saved a ton of cash by building my own parallel merge collectors ($40 and a few hours VS $250+ for pre-made). Mine are out getting ceramic coated right now, that's probably going to be around $200 but well worth it.


2.8 rods are too short and have too small of a big end for the 3500 crank. While they are forged they do have their limits. Most 60v6 builds end up using something like these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ES...D&autoview=sku

same problem though, too small of a big end for the 3500 crank.




If i were you, i'd join up on www.60degreev6.com and do a bit of searching over there. There are lots of these builds in different platforms and many different ways you can get some great results. We can spout out parts and combinations all day long but it's up to you to decide how much cash you want to throw at this and your end goal for power and reliability.


Here are some threads that you might want to check out..

http://bstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=59559

http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...ld-is-Complete!

(this one is going to be a monster)- Just a note, his turbo 3400 5 speed cavalier made 358 WHP @ 9 PSI. That was pretty much a stock 3400 too. The new build should be 400-500 @ the wheels
http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthre...nally-finished


http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/new-...h-t101545.html
http://www.v6z24.com/registry/89jyturbo (His registry)

11.94 @ 118 MPH on a bone stock 3400 with a RMT @ 10 PSI

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I'm suprised firstfirebird hasn't tried to sell you a 3500 crank. I got mine at a good price . If you're willing to wait a while I'll sell you the turbo setup I'm putting together on mine. I'm using cast manifolds, but it's set up for a t3/t4 and made of 18 guage steel. I'm only building it because the 200 shot of nitrous hasn't killed this stupid 2.8 yet. Hopefully I'll lift a head or something with this...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I do happen to have two 3500 cranks right here at the shop - well along with about 36 pistons/rods, 3 or 4 blocks, few sets of heads, 3400 heads, 3400 block and 2 3.4's getting built

gfranklin2308

Don't want to hijack your thread, I just wondered how much you gain by doing the 3.4 bottom end witht he 3.1 -> 3.4 swap. I have called about 6 junk yards around here and can't fine a 3.4 for under $800. I have a good running 3.1 in my '91 vert with only 131k on it. Would you guys recommend rebuilding this block, or to keep looking for the 3.4.

thanks for your time guys. I am really interested to follow this build. I am right behind you with the twin turbo's.

thanks

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Displacement always helps- but the block has a little more reinforcing and it's already set up for DIS ignition so building a hybrid's easier.

Fallen2603

Purple82TA
Cooool. Could you PM me a picture of those headers when you get them back? Would you be interested in making another set that I could buy off of you? I'd be willing to come pick them up, seeing as you're only a couple hours away from me in Davenport, IA. I'll be sure to check out those sites. I joined www.60degreeV6.com real quick. I've got the same user-name as here on TGO.

bl85c
Thanks for the offer man, but I think I'll stick with my rear-mount turbo idea, for now. If I change my mind, you'll be the first one to know.
LOL! I think firstfirebird has offered to sell me one, now.

firstfirebird
Would you be willing to do a swap? Would you be okay with me sending you a forged 3500 crank, fresh out of a 3500, and some cash, and, then, you send me back a 3500 forged crank with the rod journals ground down to 2"? It would be a little while before I could swing this, but just wondering if you'd be cool with that kind of deal...

Fallen2603

Okay, here's the build I have envisioned in my mind now that I've gotten all this info. Let me know what you think of this:

Grab a 3500, with the forged crank, out of a junkyard. Take it apart. Get the rod journals on the crank ground down to 2". Grab a set of those forged small block chevy rods (they fit in this application?! ) and some forged aluminum pistons from WOT-Tech. I think I'll get 0.020" over-stock pistons set up with the 9.5:1 compression ratio. That should cover the short block. Send the heads and intake manifolds from my junkyard 3500 off to WOT-Tech to be ported and polished and reworked to the 3500 Race/Boost level. Yeah, I know I'm probably way overbuilding this engine for a street-driven car, but, if I have some room for future growth/power potential, it'll be worth it in the long run. Also, grab the 65mm throttle body with the adapter to make it work on the 3500 plenum. The 3500 comes with DIS already, doesn't it? If it does, I would be avoiding the external DIS.

Well, what do you guys think of that? It'll be a while before I could actually start piecing this together if you guys can't find any holes in this plan. I have to sell a few items, first.

Fallen2603

Oh, what kind of turbo would you guys recommend for this proposed build? I'm still planning on doing the rear-mount turbo setup, especially if Purple82TA can hook me up with some of those headers he's made. Still planning on running the G-Force rebuilt T5 as well. Oh, and I'll be upgrading to a Strange 12-Bolt with a 3.73 posi. I figured it'd be prudent to do so...LOL!

Fallen2603

Oh, last question of the night, I promise, is the 3500 a hydraulic-roller cam set-up, or a hydraulic-tappet?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

where did you find the gforce rebuilt t-5?

Fallen2603

Pillsbry10
Here's a link to G-Force:
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp
You can have them rebuild your T5 to take about 600rwhp and 500lb-ft, or you can just buy a fully built transmission to those specs. The rebuild is about $2,040.00 for the whole kit and kaboodle, including shipping. Your T5 has to be, REPEAT: HAS TO BE, a World Class T5. Otherwise, they won't touch it. The complete transmissions they offer sell for $3,000.00. Hope this helps.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

hyd roller.