batsibf

ok guys, I know its on here all ready under, https://www.thirdgen.org/swapboogie

I got a few goals,
1. I want to keep using the cheap gas
2. I want to make sure I don't have to swap electrical, ecm, ect.
3. I want to keep the orignal appreance under the hood
4. I got toasted by a Mini cooper today coming home form work on the interstate wile playing with a 80's v6 stang, don't want that to happen again (he/she blew around both of us)
5. I want this to be a cruiser for the most part, so A/C is staying, and not looking for out ragious HP or Torque.
6. don't want to buid a hybird
7. would like to keep the dizzy

now I found this artical on another site it for swaping a 2.8l to a 3.4l in an s-10, http://members.shaw.ca/betterthanyou...ine%20swap.htm,
and one of the things I want to make sure of before I would start anything like this is this point
"The GM HT3.4L is GM's new, bolt in, long block for carbureted 82 to 85 S-10 vehicles. Their advertising says it cannot be used on TBI applications because GM only emissions approved it for 82-85 automatics. This is due to each variety [auto and standard] need their own approval and the newer EFI units would need the same. They cannot recommend that you use the engine for an application that is a violation of the Federal Air Pollution laws. When you consider the requirements of installing the crate engine in an 82 to 85, it becomes clear that it is more suitable to the newer (EFI) vehicles. Using this block in and EFI vehicle however, will void the factory warranty on the engine."
could this engine be put into my firebird safely?

Things I have gathered from the forums on here
1. replace engine mounts to new ones
2. I need to use the 3.4l injectors
3. I can reuse my accessories
4. porting and polishing is a must!!!!!!!

Things I'm not sure of (as of right now)
1. the water pump, do I need the 3.4l
2. ECM will the 2.8l work on the 3.4l
3. I'm not a tuner, I have never done that so I would rather not try this

OK, now what I'm looking for
I know everyone said go to the local Junk Yard, but if I'm doing this I don't want to get a block from there. So, its a short or long block (I'm thinking a long), but what mods do I need to have to accomplish my goals.

FireInMe17

Look at some of my latest thread haha

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

yea read that thread then do it your own way despite the advice and knowledge... ill answer a couple questions for the heck of it i love repeating myself.

3.1 water pump
yes ecm will work fine...read the swap boogie about ten more times

go to a junk yard for your block...your not going to benefit from getting a new one(if they are even available)

your still going to get toasted by the mini cooper

batsibf

I can get them here: http://flitelineenginesupply.com/
as a remanfactured with a warranty.

and here: http://www.everdrive.com

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

so over 1000 dollars with shipping? i mean if you have the money cool, but for a couple hundred bucks you could have a junk yard block and heads and re build the whole motor with better parts for that price

or buy a complete one from a yard with low mileage, drop it in and drive

batsibf

I'm not going to debat this The Junk yard is out for my car on the block,

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

*sigh*

then what exactly do you want to do then?

you and fireinme are two peas in a pod

batsibf

if you would have read everything,

what mods do I need to have to accomplish my goals.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

more than a stock 3.4L

buy just the block, if your going to port and polish reuse the heads you have for that.

upgrade the heads in the process

headers and exhaust

but even with all that the mini will probably still win, i have more money in my motor than you can imagine and ive yet to get 200hp to the wheels(without the turbo), bolt ons and a stock 3.4 arent going to get you much but all of it is well covered on 3rdgenrs thread and the stickies at the top

batsibf

never said I wanted a stock 3.4l just a look of one ie no turbo, or nos.
besides the fact I'm wanting to run a lower grade gas in an engine that is designed to run on a much higher grade.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

you really havent said what you want besides to beat a mini and for it to be stock looking, and that you dont want to tune an ecm, so do you want 20hp....50hp....100hp

i ran my built 3.4 on 87 octane before turbo

batsibf

200 hp range its only 40 Hp higher then the stock, but I don't want to mess the ECM or make it where it can control it safely

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

thats crank HP not at the wheels....and gaining actually wheel hp on these motors is a lot harder than just bolting on exhuast...with full bolt ons and maybe some porting and polishing you might see 20 wheel hp

my 3.4 put down 174 hp and 210 tq fully modded but with a slipping clutch, ill probably pick up a bit more than that once the clutch is in

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Oh boy...

Why do we have two of these same threads now?

The only difference is one wants a 3.4, the other does not.

Read the other thread for the needs of tuning the ECM. It may not be something that you want to do, but it will NEED To be done.

Limiting yourself to the stock intake and related looking parts will limit you on power too. I haven't seen any definitive data, but I would surmise that with the stock intake you would be limited to somewhere around 180 to 190 HP naturally aspirated, due to how poorly they flow. They make decent low end torque but at a trade off of horse power. This is due to the small diameter, long runners that are used.

When you place the restrictions you have on this "upgrade", you won't gain much.

I'll give you the same advice that I gave Fireinme17, leave it stock, since you'll be wasting money otherwise.

batsibf

Of course that crank hp, I'm not wanting to build a drag car, and 6shootet you guys jacked that thread so much it's realy hard to follow and if you were to realy read this the two goals are different one is an engine mods this one is a full swap and mods

Project 3.4 Camaro

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...ost-power.html

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

Ive done what youre looking to do. I did the 3.4 swap boogie, all the bolt ons, i did a mild port job on the heads and intake manifold, did a cam, headers, catback, etc etc etc. I actually lost power after the cam and all that due to not being tuned. So youre only gonna go just so far with a 3.4. Trust me, youre not gonna take that Cooper you mentioned, not with what you want. Ive done what you want, and it wont get you there. But it beats the hell out of what was there at least.

batsibf

Ok here is the next big question is it better to put everything in the take it to a shop to have it tuned or spend the $$ for the tuner set up and only use it the few times until I get the set up right??

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Hey, a question I can answer. lol

A custom burned chip from someone like fastchip is going to run $350.

You can buy a Megasquirt kit for that price and mess with it as often as you want, and any time you add something new. DIY is always cheaper.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Or you can do it even cheaper and put together your own aldl cable and get a chip burner for $75. You could swap to a '165 ecm for another $30 depending on what salvage yard you go to. A shop will only tune it with the throttle wide open. Where do you normally drive?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Man, if we get another one of these "I want to dump a bunch of money into this thing but I don't want it to run right" threads I'm going to blow. Tuning isn't hard and your motor's not going to explode.

batsibf

It's not that it's going to blow up, just I have never looked into it and realy haven't wanted to, I program and build industrial machines for a living. I'm just wondering what would be more cost effective in my case,


And what would a 165 ECM get me over the one I have now?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Tuneability. The 6E and 32B masks are well known and there's nothing you can't do with them. Good luck with the stock one. You need a $30 adapter to even use an eeprom with the stock p3 ecm, at that point why not spend it on a much better ecm? If you're ever looking to put a power adder on I'm rewriting the code to give it map control over spark and various other functions & other stuff like launch retard and ecm controlled nitrous.

batsibf

Ok what cars has the 165, and where did you guys get your tunning stuff. How to I tell what ECM I have now?
The number on the sticker is
863041M620236799
and the other number is
16053041

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Everything you need to know is here. There's a list of cars on pg 2. Your stock ecm is probably a '302.

batsibf

Wow reading that for the last couple of days before you posted it and ever since you put that up only made my head hurt.. lol

And gave me a few more question1. Would it be wise for me to get the 165, the memcal, and the burner and put the current engine on it just to have something to play with until I'm ready to put the 3.4 in
2. Wile reading that topic I saw it was a hit and miss on the ecms when you get one out how do you tell what it is?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

YES!

batsibf

is this a good burner to get, MOATES BURN2 USB Eprom Burner, and when you are going through the cars in the JK how do you tell what ECM it is????

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yes, the BURN2 is a great programmer. I have one and love it.

batsibf

Ok cool, but I still need to know is how do you tell if you have an a 165 ECM or not when looking for one, I found one online for over 100 and if I can get one out of the local jk with warranty is only $20

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It will say "1227165" on it for a service number.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Use the list of cars posted on pg. 2 when you're walking through the yard.

batsibf

I was going to but I still wanted to make sure on what I am getting

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Well yea, don't just grab one and go. The list makes browsing through cars easier.

batsibf

Ok now the next set of questions,
I'm going to port and polish my heads, got to use my 2.8 intake (due to the dizzy), I'm planning to upgrade the exhaust, what is the best cam for low to mid tq and hp combination and please remember I'm building a cruser not a racer. What injectors should I be using I'm planning on using the 3.4l but I'm wanting to know would these need to be upgraded

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

you can use the injectors that come on the 3.4...or get a pair of bosch III from southbay injectors pretty cheap. they are better than our stock style injectors overall. just tell them you want the stock flow rate from a 3.4.

batsibf

ok cool something I dont have to change to get this engine running, and something that could be upgraded.

what about the cams one of the guys I work with said I should use a street cam, what would you guys say?
porting and polishing the heads, realy what is the difference between mild and agressive?

batsibf

I have not had any luck at the jk this weekend looking for a 165 ecm, but I did find several places on line but they said they dont have the chips in them, if I'm installing this on my 2.8 until I have the 3.4l ready to be put in can I use a copy of the 2.8 chip ine the 165?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You don't use the '165 memcal, you use a '730 memcal. Read the thread I linked.

batsibf

Yes but I was looking for the 165 then I'll look for the memcal from a 730

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I misunderstood your question. What "copy of the 2.8 chip" do you mean?

batsibf

Just do a strait copy of my current chip and put it in the 165/730 ECM
As a set/practice until I get the 3.4 ready to put in

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

No that won't work. You need to use one of the bins I provided in the swap thread. The "L" bin is best if you want to keep the stock maf, the latest 6E bin is best if you want to use a t-bird maf.

batsibf

Ok cool that's why I asked

86ttopbird

Dude, putting in a '165 ECM is a cinch. Just read bl85's thread on how to do the repin. I got my EPROM burner from MCUmall for $45 and got the SST-27SF512 chips for 2$ a piece from there as well. Tuning is not real difficult to learn and it is a MUST if you are going to have a motor that runs good. As for an ALDL cable, using the numerous schematics found on the internet and this forum, I built a cable for a grand total of $5 (parts from Radio Shack). You use a laptop and a program like Tuner Pro which is free to download and use for datalogging. You have 2 options, get a 3.4 out of a late 90's Camaro or Firebird, swap your old stuff on to it (intake,distributor, accessories, etc.) drop it in and drive with about 160 or so HP on tap, or if you want to beat a Mini Cooper, then you will at the very least have to install things like headers and you MUST tune. In order to make the power needed to beat the mini, I will venture to say you are at least going to need to build a hybrid, as the 3.4 will not do it by itself. If you search, there is a guy on this forum that swapped in a whole 3500 FWD V6. He should be making enough power to beat V8 cars, but again you have to tune it. Trust me, learn to tune, not only is it gratifying, it is loads of fun too! When doing the '165 swap, you might want to consider the T-bird MAF swap. The MAF's that are stock on our cars are crap. The frequency film in them often goes and the Ford MAF generally does not fail as this is a hot-wire MAF. You might also want to consider the Ford injector swap. I did and have no regrets at all. For more power down the road, or for feeding the bigger engine, Mustang #19 injectors work well. For a close to stock engine, I am using the F1ZE 15# injectors out of a Ranger. Just some food for thought.

batsibf

I know replacing the ecm is easy, I had to do it it a '89 grand am. the hard parts has been finding one, and the 730 memcal. I have even found the 3.4 from a '94 firebird.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

If you end up needing a '7730 MEMCAL, espcially a MEMCAL for DIS, such as a FWD 3.1 application, I have about dozen and a half of them sitting here.

I also have several '7730 and later replacement number (Can't recall the number off the top of my head right now) ECMs.

batsibf

hey all,
just got back from my local JK and found one 730 memcal (numbers on the chip delco baub 6374) and a memcal (numbers on the chip delco balk 4805) out of a remanufactured ecm that looks identical to the 730 memcal, the ecm said remanufactured with the number 7-6647. it looks like the pic for the 165 and I found a sit for s-10 that said it was the samething.

did I find the right things???? when I figure out how to post a pic on here i'll put them up if needed.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You found a what?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

think he forgot an e...found a SITE for s10s