stealthroc89

Hey you guys, planning on selling my Iroc to start on a new project. I've always been fascinated by turbo 6's and feel it's time to start my own. What are the best options for such an engine? My goal is 350-400hp.
The engines im looking at right now are the 3.8's from the later 4th gens and the 3.4 that came before it, but I'm open to other options. Not looking to try to make a FWD engine fit a RWD car. I know the 3.4 will drop right in, but what about the 3.8? Will there be any fab work needed other than mounts? Money isn't an issue, but don't want it to cost more than it's worth, ya know.
I'm not looking to go with too many aftermarket parts for the engine, so what are the best factory heads/ intake for your choice of engine?
Most of my searches on the 3.8 have only gotten me posts on the fwd 3.8s, so I have searched (6 hours) and decided to make a thread.
Will either of these engines need forged parts to live with 350-400hp? I've heard they're pretty stout, but that's only what I've heard. Usefull links would be appreciated too, I'm not the type to jump and then think, so I don't want to get into something I'll regret later. Thanks for all your help!

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

The 3.8 will fit, but your going to have a time to do it. It has the same bolt pattern as the V8 trannys I believe. A RWD 3.4 will be your best bet with what you said you wanted. Read. Through the stickies up top if you haven't. Lots of information up there.

stealthroc89

Ya I'm currently going through the "How to get the most out of your V6" thread. It's lead me to the 3.4 hybrid option. Also considering going with an OBD2 system for better functionality.
edit- come to think of it, don't really need good heads for a turbo set-up, right (wrong section to ask this)? Trying to keep it simple and the hybrid swap looks to be pretty complicated. I don't know ANYTHING about V6's lol.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

A stock 100k mile V6 can take 14 psi with a turbo. Just has to be in good shape. daves12secv6 or project89 (who are the same person) ran his 3.1 that way. It's in the how to install a turbo thread.

stealthroc89

Wow, really, thats cool?! Lot's of info, just have to use the right keywords to find it.... then weed through all the crap to find nuggets of info

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Yeah lol. I'm trying to convince my Dad turboing my V6 is a good idea. He's more of a V8 or nothing guy.

stealthroc89

With a turbocharged V6 you can have V8 power with good gas milage. That's why I'm selling mine and starting this. Well, that and I want a Trans Am with t-tops lol. On the down side, turbocharging can be pretty costly.

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol ive been hanging out on the darkside of the board with my turbo iroc project, but anyways 350-400 hp is a cake walk with the v6 and a turbo

if the v6's bottom end is in good shape u dont have to touch a thing

basic rundown of what u want is
60-1 turbo
ported top end
cam in the range of the 252, 260 duration or one of my custom turbo grinds
42# injectors
and a way to tune either the stock ecm or just buy a dam megasquirt system and be done with it
and a wideband 02 sensor

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

What Dave posted below is what I plan to upgrade to later on. I'm just starting with a basic T40E turbo kit just to get me going. Later on it will all be upgraded.

project89

iTrader: (1)

t04e will get u to 400 hp u just have to push it more then a 60-1

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Lol, I don't want it to explode on me. I'll prolly upgrade the wastegate and BOV before the turbo it's self. But I'll need larger injectors, 21# won't do the job with a 60-1.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

Definitely stick with some sort of a 3.4 build. Dropping in a 3800 from a 4th gen F-body is even harder than dropping in a V8. a few people have tried it over the years but i dont know of any that actually got it on the road.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the wastegates and bovs from ebay are fine,
if the diaphram in the wastegate goes, u can actually buy the tial replacement one and it fits the knockoff one,ive been usin the same ebay wastegate and bov for quite a few years now no issues

im even using an ebay wastegate and 2 bovs on my 1000 hp iroc build

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Oh, ok. I kinda wanted that loud BOV sound. I'll just PM you, don't want to clutter this thread.

project89

iTrader: (1)

EBAY RFL BOV , ask pilsbury how loud his is at 7 psi, its friggen LOUUUUDDDD
ill be using 2 of those on my iroc

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

Lol, sounds right up my alley.

stealthroc89

Ahhhh, but it's soooo tempting LOL!! I've always flirted with the turbo 6 idea, but never went through with it because of the lack of info available to me at the time. I've already found an 85 V6 firebird roller ($300) and a complete 94 3.4/t5 with 95000mi ($1700), no suitable 300ZX's lol. Will I be able to find the manifolds on ebay or is there a better place to get a good quality set? Is there a specific seller I should look for?

project89

iTrader: (1)

u have to build ur own manifolds if u want a true turbo header setup

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

This. And this is something I can't do. So I'm stuck with following what Dave did in the sticky at the top of the page.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

THIS is the darkside of the board. Mwhahaha!

You don't neccecarily need better heads to make your goal, but it helps. I've always thought the less pressure it takes to make your power goal the better. Less heat, less wear, less broken parts. Stick with a 3.4, the 3800 heads suck and there's no upgrades unless you want to spend some serious $$$.

stealthroc89

Hmmm, I had the headers built for my Iroc a couple years ago by a place that is out of buiness now . They are very nice heavy gauge tubing and flanges, definitely 1 of a kind, it's a shame to let them go with the car.
I'm a machinist, so I can make a turbo flange, maybe the head flanges too (if I can't buy them). As for the rest of the header I'm not sure, a competent muffler shop should be able to do it though, assuming they have the equipment. What size tubing should I consider and would thicker tubing be better? I know it might hold heat more, but wouldn't it be less prone to cracking. Would stainless be a better alternative? This isn't my 1st turbo car, I used to own an AWD Talon Turbo, so I'm going off what I learned from that and the stock manifolds were notorious for cracking. As for routing, do I merge the 2 header pipes before the turbo? A pic would help a lot in this case. I'm sure these questions would be better off in the exhaust section, should have posted this in the engine swap section, but I'm technically not swapping anything LOL.
I'm about to start searching again to see what I can dig up so I don't have to ask you guys sooo many questions, especially on a "I'm thinking about" thread, I hate those kinds of threads, but here I am doing one lol. If I do go through with it I'll just turn it into my build thread, save a little clutter. Thank you guys very much for answering questions you might have to go out of your way to answer!

stealthroc89

Ya, the 3.8 is out of the question, the allure of a TT/A isn't worth the effort. Did GM produce any better heads for the 3.4 or are they all essentially the same?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Yes, that's what we call a 'hybrid'. Everything from the heads up off a fwd 3100, 3400 or 3500 ontop of a rwd 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4. The frankenstein motor in my signature is a hybrid.

stealthroc89

I considerd the hybrid route, but the posts that led me to it also showed they may be a PITA. I believe it was your thread, or you were part of it. So I assume it not just a bolt on and go type of swap. I'll have to re-read it when I'm not so tired. I think the heads in that thread were the 3500 heads, so would the other hybrid heads be any easier? Will they raise the compression any?

Project 3.4 Camaro

I agree that a 3.8 is overkill for your power goals, a 3.4 is more than adequate, even a 2.8 could be coaxed into giving that much power with boost, all the fwd aluminum gen 3 heads are basically the same, the few small differences are in the CC size, and possibly port sizes, otherwise they are all the same heads, but it should be noted you cannot put 3500 heads on anything smaller than a 3.4, as their CC bore is too big.
Most of the challenges are little things, the heads and manifolds themselves bolt right up, but you have to convert to DIS, get creative with the EGR if you choose to keep it, because of DIS swap you have to ECM swap, have to figure out TV and throttle cable placement, anything else is small enough to be not worth mentioning, and I haven't done the swap yet myself so I do not know all the minor details, just the major ones.
Any of the gen 3 heads will drastically raise compression, even if you have a 3.1 or 3.4 they will raise it some, you will need to calculate your CR and figure out how you want to deal with it, ie. pistons or cam, but if you are going boost only dished pistons will lower the CR enough.
Anyways, if you can pull off an engine rebuild and swap, you can probably handle a hybrid build, but if you have never done either of those I would be leery of attempting it without help.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have a double horn style of the ebay BOV talked about above on two camaros. It's loud enough, but I have to grease it every couple months. The RS-type BOV sounds better, looks nicer, and is just as loud (or louder) on the firebird. Time will tell whether I have to grease it as often.

From my experience, the most annoying part of a hybrid build is mounting the accessories and throttle body (should be nothing for a machinist though). Followed by the custom pushrod lengths. The ecm swap, maf/map wiring, and initial tuning took a while, but were easy. Then I had to make an inverting amplifier circuit out of 2 resistors and a transistor to get the factory tach to work with the DIS. As long as you use a RWD 3.4 block (I highly recommend this), the DIS conversion is straight forward. Fabricate a complete custom exhaust. Then, everything else bolts together.

WOT-tech has cylinder head flow test data on their site. The stock 3500 heads flow 10-20% more than the 3100/3400 (and don't have egr ports to plug either).

stealthroc89

I've noticed most of you guys have Camaro's, personal preference? Looks as though T/A's don't have good airflow to an intercooler, have to imporvise there. I'm buying a roller that's old enough to be emissions exempt, so do you guy's have any problems with inspections? Don't want to be in the same boat I'm in now with the HSR, it is funny to see their eyes when they open the hood though.
I'm pretty much set on getting the engine rebuilt just to start off fresh, have some work done to the heads to improve flow a bit and put a cam in it. Would a T5 hold up under a boosted life? I see auto's are the most popular, understandably.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Autos aren't particularly more popular....just a lot more common, I for one would rather have a manual than my auto, as for camaro vs. firebird, its most a preference thing, I do like firebirds though, really it all came down to the first car I found in my price range.
A stock t5 won't hold up to more power than a 305 tpi cranks out, its why the 350s never came with one.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

If you want to make power you need air flow. So this is why I choose either a FWD engine or the FWD top end to get improved flow, and being aluminum helps with heat dissipation, and getting the front of the car lighter, helping with weight distribution, or making up for the extra weight of the turbo system.

It's not THAT difficult to get the hybrid in a vehicle that wasn't designed to have it. This is especially true when you start with a 3.4, since it has the crank position sensor provisions already.

The hardest part is getting the ECM to work with DIS, which really is not that difficult. There is stock GM code that will work in the 1227727, 1227730 and 1227749 ECMs (among others) that is designed for turbo and DIS on the 660, unfortunately the code was only ever used with auto trannies and using it on manuals can result in less than desired results, though there is "5-speed hack" code out there for it.

Even starting with code that was designed for dizzy can be made to work with DIS. I'm using dizzy code that has been modified to work with DIS on my 2.8L Turbo I6 in my Datsun. The documentation is easily found to do this. Yes I am using a GM ECM to run my Nissan engine.

Regardless of ignition type, tuning will be paramount. OEM GM ECMs have great abilities in this arena, and OBDII is not needed.

Basically, start with the best flow you can afford, being gen3 heads and intake. the 3500 heads will fit on a 3.4, but not the 2.8 or 3.1 block, due to combustion chamber size. 3100 or 3400 heads will fit on a 2.8 or 3,1 though, but would have the added requirement of adding a DIS reluctor wheel and sensor, most commonly added to the crank pulley. I would start with a 3.4 in any case, just to simplify the DIS integration part of it. I have gone with the added reluctor wheel a couple of times now and although it is not difficult, it does add time and cost, when that money could be spent on the later and larger 3.4 block.

Another option is a full FWD engine, starting with a 3400 or 3500. The biggest difference from a hybrid is the mounts and the oil pan modification. So not a whole lot more involved, but can be, depending on the tools you have available.

Basically all I'm getting at is to start with the best base possible, and that would be to start with the genIII top end.

stealthroc89

GM ECM in a Datsun!? YOU MONSTER!! LOL, I've considered going to the other Z's, if I can find a suitable Z32TT. Back on topic, what about the harness? Will there be a lot cutting/splicing to get things to plug up with the 3500 top end? I'm probably over thinking things, I'm sure everything will fall into place once it's all in front of me like always. I think most of the basics have been covered, but I'm all ears for more info.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Mostly just swapping connectors to use the new sensors, but rewiring the dist. harness for dis is a bit more involved. Look here.

stealthroc89

What the heck is up with people now in days!? The guy offered $4k for my car, yes the body needs some work, so does the interior, but how many don't? Engine and tranny are professionally rebuilt by racing shops, not your typical local shop. $9000 in reciepts and more in other parts.
Please excuse my rant, but it leads to this question. How far will $4k get me. I've talked to the guy with the Firebird roller and he wants it gone for $100, solid car too. The 95 3.4/t5 Firebird has been talked down to $1300, so really $2600. It looks like I'm going to need dished pistons to do the hybrid swap, so a rebuild will be in order, not sure how much that will cost yet. Figure, about a grand from the place that rebuilt my 355. How much is a 3500 top end with all the needed components? I'm not relying on the sell of my car to pay for everything, but I do want it to leave me in a good position.

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres that rfl bov on pilsburys car at only like 4-5 psi tops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjABQ...eature=related

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You could probably grab a running 3500 for $500 if you don't mind making your own motor mounts & notching the k-member. The top end can probably be had for $150 or so at the right pick-a-part. I did my hybrid for less than $1800.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if he cant weld up his own headers i doubt he will be able to make his own mounts and notch the kmember.
for the power u want take the heads off clean them up a lil with a die grinder and turbo the factory engine

Fallen2603

I got a set of ported/polished iron cylinder heads that project89 did up for me. If you want 'em, $300 and they're yours. Looks like I'll be the first to swap an Ecotec LNF into a 3rd-Gen...

stealthroc89

Anyone notice the car in that vid made 268hp and 370tq!!? I don't know about the car, but the torque shows the power potential once the ignitions fixed, amazing!!! I could be wrong though.
I like project89's thought's. Simple, practical and effective, that's how I took it anyways. If the 3.4 heads can get what I want they will work and if I want more later, I can go hybrid. I can do all the fabrication at work, so the only limit's would imagination and engineering.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the car in the dyno video is mine

project89

iTrader: (1)

the heads from fallen that i did would be great for u

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

And they've been "pressure tested" by yours truly lol.

stealthroc89

How much horsepower do you think it really makes?

stealthroc89

Little chance of plans....... Not doing a 3rd gen anymore. Instead, it'll be an '86 Fiero GT. Runs and drives great, but it looks like theres no room for turbo parts lol, oh well. Wrong place to be talking about that, so the project is still alive, just in a different car. Thanks again for all your help guys!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There is space for turbo(s) in a Fiero.

stealthroc89

That's good to hear, I'll have to look at it better when I get it home, not driving it with no insurance, lost my license for 6 months because of that lol. Still want to do a 3.4 turbo, but I'll do that IF the 2.8 goes

stealthroc89

This car has an issue with full throttle bucking and absolute loss of power untill I let off the throttle more than 50%. Spent all of my money to buy it, so no money to fix it lol. It needs an IAC and a VSS. It's all original so I'm sure the IAC isn't the only reason it idles to the moon and of course the tach doesn't work, but the earpm gauge sounds like 2800rpm, have an old cheapo tach that I'll hook up so I'll know what it is for sure.

stealthroc89

1986 Fiero GT 2.8 with manual 4-speed

backgammon7

I would check the fuel system, i'm having a similar problem with my 86 2.8 camaro. My car sat for years and the tank rusted and the rust clogged the fuel system like a big terd in an eco toilet. ( goes through a fuel filter in three days) I don't think i'm getting the flow for anything above 3K, just haven't had the cash for the new tank to be sure. Anyways, my

stealthroc89

Thanks, your 2 cents are well taken. Went out and bought another fuel pressure gauge, tested during indle and revved it a bit with no drop in pressure. I want to drive it and see if the pressure drops under load, but the short length of hose on the gauge doesn't allow for that . Then there's the thought of riding in the trunk while someone else drives it, but no one can drive stick UGH!! No one else is crazy enough to ride in the trunk either, LOL Oh well..... Reset the IAC, TPS, played with the timing, checked plugs, wires, cap and rotor, all are good. It revs good when not in gear, but feels like a fuel cut when driven at anything over half throttle and losses power gradually as it's being driven. Other than a possible clogged fuel filter, I suspect a weak fuel pump, or maybe power loss to the pump. I'll have time to look at it better tomorrow, so what other points of intrest should there be?

firebird904

Ha awesome another camaro-fiero owner I also have an 86 gt 5 speed, got it for free from my dads friend with a slight rod knock. Planning on going with either a 3400, caddy 4.9 v8 or 3800 sc but I haven't decided yet. It's gonna be a project me and my best friend are going to work on this summer after my maro is all done Check your fuel filter I had the same thing happen to mine and there was water in the fuel tank.

stealthroc89

New fuel filter installed and got 2 good full throttle shifts before it went back to what it was doing before. Cut the old filter open and it had some gunk on the walls, but the filter was free of debris and obstructions inside and out. My brother put a new fuel pump in for the previous owner, he said it looked good in the tank. firebird904, lucky! I hate the 4speed in mine, not enough gears and clunky as heck! It's drivable, so I'm happy with it. Just put new wheels on it, huge difference in appearance!