OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

One gas tank, cleaned and painted with POR-15!



Now all I need to do is install the fuel pump, re-install the gas tank, and enjoy! I hope

I'm gonna be busy tonight, tomorrow, and Saturday so I may not get to work on it again until Sunday. But it shall be running soon!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

And it's up and running! The new fuel pump made an amazing difference! It's a totally different car now! Woohoo!

Minor issue with the 3/8" pressurized fuel line though, right where it connects to the rubber hose at the left front corner of the tank. Hooked it all up and pressurized it. Gas dribbled out Took the connection apart and noticed a nick in the o-ring. I ran over to Advance Auto and bought a set of o-rings (frikkin' expensive!) and put in a new o-ring. Pressurized it again, and gas leaked out So, I took it apart once more and guess what? A nick in the o-ring!

I went back over to Advance Auto to get a fuel line repair kit. They didn't have the one I needed to I headed over to Autozone. Again these parts are pricey! The kit included a 3/8" line with a fitting on one end. I also bought a small tubing cutter since there is NO room where I need to cut that line - at least without dropping the tank! I got home, cut the line, and spliced in a new section (not easy!). Success! No more gas leak! I then buttoned it all up and drove it around for a while.

Of course on the way to work, the SES light came on for a bit. It's not running perfect apparently, but at least running at 95%.

Next step, hook up the netbook and take some more readings. I'll post again when I have them.

camaro_V6_Tuner

Good to hear Turbo! You're doing some great work to the old girl! Do you prefer zebra tape to rust or what??

I love these updates. Keep 'em coming!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Ha! Yeah, the zebra tape is covering the hole in the quarter panel to keep exhaust from coming in - it gets hard to breath when it was running rich It also covers the sharp edges which could tear my car cover. They'll do until I put the new quarter panel on!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, I recorded a WinALDL log on my way to work this morning. Note that I used the 1986 MPFI choice.

On a side note, the "1986 MPFI" doesn't seem to log error codes... perhaps 1226870 will? I'll have to play around.

Anyways, it appears to be running rich still. Much better than it was, but still rich.

camaro_V6_Tuner

Yea it's probably running the way it used to when it ran what I considered normal (a tad rich).

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well, last night I took care of a few minor things:

• Finally installed the new turn signal flasher.
• Checked and adjusted the timing.
• Took all the new locks out of the '82 Camaro.
• Installed used clips around the back interior trim. Still need 2 clips and 2 screws though.

After seeing that the timing was off, I took it for another spin. Feels different, but I wasn't sure if anything had changed. Looking at this morning's log file it seems that it is still rich.

Like camaro_V6_Tuner says, that may be normal with the Hypertech Thermomaster chip installed.

I also am finding that no setting I choose for WinALDL works properly... I think I'll play around with TunerPro and see what I can do with that.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Didn't have a chance to do more diagnostics yet, but I did find the gas smell that was coming from the left rear wheel well was from me not tightening the low pressure return line

I'll hopefully have some time soon to diagnose the running rich code some more.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

UPDATE: Tightening the low pressure line did not fix it. So I replaced the hose on the low pressure line. Still didn't fix it. I'm about to go back under and put on a longer length of hose that will cover more of the line, I must have a hole or crack in it.

In addition, to ease troubleshooting, I purchased original PROM and CALPACK chips. I installed them as well as switched back to a 195 degree thermostat.

Once I've fixed the darn return line again, I'll take it out and log some data.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, took another log reading. It is attached below. I'm still reading rich (Code 45) and also a new one, EGR Fail (Code 32).

Hopefully today I'll have some time to go through the diagnostics in the service manual.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well after doing through the diagnostics in the service manual, here is what I got:

• Fuel Pressure = 42
• Fuel Pressure at Idle = 38
• Fuel Pressure 15 minutes after shutting it off = 10!

So I turned it back to "on" and the pressure shot back up to 42. I then turned the car off and then clamped off the return line. The pressure still dropped.

Looks like I have at least one leaky injector (or more). Luckily the spare engine has a set of remanufactured injectors I can use! Wish me luck!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay! I put it a different set of injectors I had for my other 3.4L waiting to go in. Still runs rich I also took apart the EGR and tested it and cleaned it.

Next up:

• Test the fuel pressure again (replaced injectors may be bad).
• Do any other remaining tests in the manual.

In the meantime, I may as well send out the injectors I removed and have them reconditioned at SouthBay.

I'm beginning to run out of options...

camaro_V6_Tuner

You may have to do a custom chip for it. You're using a 2.8 chip with a 3.4 w/3.4 injectors and a 2.8 intake. I was fine with it running rich but knew it wasn't completely correct. Of course in those days they didn't have prom burners, etc. nor did I have any idea how to use one. I hope you figure it out. While you're at it, throw a turbo on there . I really wanted to.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

I'm really thinking that may be the case that I will need a custom chip! The turbo would be cool but that's quite a bit of custom work... I may change my mind once I drop in the hi-performance 3.4L though! Right now that is a long way off as this one runs great (other than a bit rich)!

I'm hoping the fuel pressure test I'm going to do tonight shows bad injectors - that will mean the ones I put in are also bad so a rebuilt set should fix it.

Whatever the results of the test, I'll post again.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I second the turbo!!

But if you do entertain the idea some day. Make sure you either A. know how to tune pretty well or B. Dont have a nice fresh engine in there when you start because if you dont know how to tune, it would sux to wound a fresh engine in the learning process.


Ive had my share of leaky injectors before. I never really saw a problem though except that it would be harder to start if i shut it off for 10 minuets and went to start it back up.

You tossed 3.4L injectors which would make it a tad stronger anyways. I remember 15lb/hr are 3.1L stockers, not sure if 2.8L are the same and IIRC 17lb/hr are 3.4Ls??

project89

iTrader: (1)

it will run rich with the 3.4 injectors and 2.8 or 3.1 ecm stock

a work around if u cant burn chips yet is to get an adjustable fuel presure regulator off ebay , gut the stocker and install the ebay unit in the return line then set the base fuel presure to 37 or 38 psi , this will make up the diffence in flow

one of theese

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ADJUSTABLE-FUEL-PRESSURE-REGULATOR-0-140-PSI-GAUGE-HOSE-KIT-Silver-/310733415048?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item485927a288&vxp=mtr

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

So what you are saying is that I'll NEVER get the engine to stop running rich because it is getting too much gas?

If so, should this info be added to the 3.4 swap boogie? It suggests using the 3.4L injectors.

Okay, adjustable fuel pressure regulator is one option. Is there another? Could I also switch back to 3.1L or 2.8L injectors?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You have a stock fuel map in your ecm for 2.8L injectors which tells the injectors to let this XXXXX much fuel go into each cylinder per compression cycle. 3.4L injectors flow more fuel per hr at the same psi as the 2.8L ones. Hence your fueling will be rich across the board for idle and WOT stuff. Its not going to be stinking rich but will be low enough were it could blacken the plugs a good amount exspecially when idleing.

The beauty of ecm tuning is that you can change the injector constant. And tell the ecm that you have larger injectors now. But since you can do that right now there is 2 options, the stock injectors or the AFPR like project89 mentioned.

If you go back to stock fuel injectors the ecm will command the same fueling for the car as if it was stock but now the injectors and ecm are in snyc.

A AFPR is a good idea though as a cheepo off ebay is much less then any injectors and work well as I used one last year. Except i was jacking up the fuel pressure, trying to make injectors flow more then they did at the stock 42ish psi.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

No, you can't use 2.8/3.1 injectors... They're 3# smaller than the 3.4 injectors (biggest ones were 15.4# versus 18.4# in the 3.4).

There is a fuel injector calculator on some fuel injector repop sites... I would tend to think you might need to drop to 17# injectors (or slightly smaller) to avoid having to install the AFPR, which can be a big PITA if it's not really necessary.

project89

iTrader: (1)

he can use the factory 2.8 injectors his car is a maf car , the maf will see the extra air being drawn in by the larger engine and add enough extra fuel to keep it running right.

now if he does stuff like headers ported heads/intake the stock 2.8 injectors wont have enough headroom to keep up with the mods , but on a stock 3.4 they will be just fine

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Wow! Lots of info! Too much info! Let me do some quick analysis here...

Current Data:

1. Car runs rich - BLM sits at 115 almost constantly.
2. All systems now test perfect.

Theories:

1. With MAF system, 3.4L will show more air entering engine.
2. With more air, ECM will add more fuel.
3. Since running 3.4L injectors, we already have more fuel.
4. Therefore the ECM enrichment is adding too much fuel!
5. The system then sees too much fuel and attempts to compensate.
6. This is ineffective as the injectors supply way more fuel than 2.8L spec.

In conclusion, to obtain proper air/fuel mixture, I must change one of the factors!

Options:

1. Burn new EPROM/CALPACK to compensate for larger injectors.
2. Switch back to 2.8L injectors (possibly 3.1L).
3. Install adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.

Burn New EPROM:

• Good - can use existing 3.4L injectors which are better than 2.8L injectors.
• Good - solves problem while keeping ECM from going to extremes, will be useful when I drop in Hi-Perf 3.4L.
• Bad - Cost? I do not have stuff to burn chip, would need someone to do it.

Switch Back to 2.8L (or 3.1L) Injectors:

• Good - solves problem.
• Bad - cannot handle further upgrades to engine as ECM will be at extremes.
• Bad - would need to buy 2.8L injectors.

Install Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator:

• Good - solves problem.
• Bad - costs $.
• Bad - requires hacking up fuel system to install.

So, after taking in info from you folks () I think I have come to a decision. I believe the best choice is to have my EPROM/CALPACK burned. I have no idea what I am doing in that area so I must go learn!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Remind me again but you do have the 302 ecm not a 165 or 7730 correct? That is a tad harder to just burn a chip for. (V6 owners take a look) thread on the eprom burning area will help you understand why. IIRC You have to desolder the old eprom and solder in the new one. There isnt a quick connector that moates makes. I may be wrong as its early in the morning but I just wanted you to be aware that it is a "special ecm" compared to the 165 and 7730.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Being that I swapped out the Hypertech Thermomaster chip earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure the chips pop out quite easily

EDIT - I have found that if I wish to use an EEPROM instead of the stock EPROM, I have to change the socket. Which does require soldering.

I just sent an email off to TunedPerformance - hopefully he will know the best approach!

camaro_V6_Tuner

You seem pretty good with data logging, etc. I think if you read up on PROM burning you may be able to do it. The PROM forum has tons of info:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/

I almost bit this bullet a few years ago when i wanted to put a cam in my '91 350TBI chevy truck but then decided not to. Check out moates.net. There's tons of info. It will be a good bit of work but you can practice on the stock engine and then you'll be all set for when you drop in the turbo!
http://www.moates.net/gm-19851995-c-64.html

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

I think I'd be able to do it too... my only concern at this point is the startup cost to buy the programmer, eraser, software, and a few spare chips. I think I would like to go this route long-term.

Gumby

The injectors are a sure fire fix, [buy used, send off to refurb] wait till you want to do more mods and then get into the constant need to burn yet another chip to tune a little more. As its a never ending cycle of just one more chip. Never heard of anyone buring 1 chip and fixing a problem. Cause ya soon realize how dumb these computers are, need a better ECM design, new chips, still not happpy, scrw it just buy a mega squirt system....... never ending story.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

No major news yet... I've got TunedPerformance ready to burn a chip for me. I'm also trying to use TunerPro and having no luck.

In the meantime, I changed out the plugs. Funny, I figured they would be sootier!

camaro_V6_Tuner

Those plugs are basically brand new. I replaced them a couple months before u bought it thinking that was part of the miss problem. I'd hang onto them.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Oh sure, now you tell me! Yeah, I'll bag 'em up and save them as spares.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea those plugs arent to bad but they are definitely seeing a rich condition rich. Id say 12.5-13ish AFRs at idle before you pulled them out. Im just guessing from what ive seen on my plugs when I was tuning in idle in the past.

BTW what plugs are those? AC delco RT43S Are a good plug to get. There only about 2 buck a piece and are what is meant for our car. I run RT42S and they work wonders and always will.

FYI: Expensive spark plugs really dont make a difference in our engines. They are a total waste of $$$ IMO. If they would make the car run a load better then the old ones were just that bad or gaped wrong.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Those are Bosch I think. The ones I put in are AC Delco RT43S. They didn't seem to make any difference.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

RBob

iTrader: (1)

NGK with the power groove... And yes, that engine is running rich. The center porcelain should be bone white.

RBob.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Giving it a shot, I reduced the maf fueling bye 6.5% with a blm starting point of 115. I used a j body 2.8 manual .bin. I worked on the target idle a little so when warm it will be 750 rpm. Fingers crossed I have only worked with the 302 ecm once before to disable vats out of a 89. $10 bucks is worth a shot the prom is headed your way usps priority.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Dude! You've been great to work with via email! I appreciate it! As soon as it comes I'll pop it in and take it for a spin (recording a data log too).

I'm saving up for a programmer and UV eraser along with a couple of chips. I'd like to try my hand at this as well. Especially since I've got the hi-perf 3.4 waiting to go in. That will likely need some massaging of the stock program what with the headers, 1.6 rockers, ported intake, wild cam, and such.

As to the 302, I don't see why everybody hates it so much. But that's a discussion for another thread

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I sure hope I made a big improvement and helped you out
I would goto a 1227730 ecm if you decide to do programing and change it to map.
Nothing wrong with working with what you have .

Gumby

Now thats a good deal, I got $10 if you wanna burn another odd ball chip.....

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Depends on what you have, send me a pm. I hope this made a huge correction with the rich condition. We should find out with a datalog in a few days

XxXChrisGXxX

iTrader: (1)

I bought an AC Delco o2 sensor for 11 bucks on amazon 2 day prime shipping. That's OE right (AC Delco)?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yes it is. ac delco

BTW the reason some dont like that ecm, which i cant talk too bad about as ive never had one, is because its limited for what you can do with it. Even the 7730 is to a certain point which is what I have. But IMO the 7730 is one of the better odb1 stock ecms in our cars. I love tuning the 7730 mainly because it a speed density.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay dudes & dudettes! According to the tracking info, the chip is at my house in the mailbox! I'll have a data log tonight It might still be in WinALDL though unless I can get TunerPro working though.

Keep your fingers crossed!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Are you having issues with tunerpro RT? IMO its a easier program to use then winaldl.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Here's my experience with WinALDL so far:

• Install WinALDL.
• Execute WinALDL.
• Choose my data profile (1986 MPFI V6).
• Connect cable to laptop and car.
• View and log data.

Here's my experience with TunerPro RT so far:

• Download TunerPro RT.
• Fight with Norton about it being a virus.
• Install TunerPro RT.
• Execute TunerPro RT.
• Load up Definition and ADX file.
• Connect cable to laptop and car.
• TunerPro can't see the cable.

I got some info from the forums over at TunerPro and I've got to give them a try tonight. Seems like some sort of driver issues with the cable driver is common with Windows 7.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well, BLM is down near 100 now Still running rich. Here's the WinALDL log for now, I'm trying to get TunerPro RT working right now.

EDIT: I got TunerPro RT working! It was a known glitch with the driver for the USB cable.

Change the one with dashes to an XDL file and it should work in TunerPro to view.

Thanks!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Thats really odd, I lowered the maf tables some on the new tune. I have no idea if the maf tables work opposite of tpi. I will be interesting to see the hypertech tune as a compare if it has the same fueling but more sa or what

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I havent had a chance to look at it yet, Here is a copy of your hypertech

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Tuned Performance! According to some threads I was going through on this site and some others, we have to compare the 2 sets of injectors. Since the originals were 13pph and the 3.4 injectors are 17pph, we divide 13/17 to get 0.7647. So according to that theory we need to multiply the Injector Pulse Width vs Load Value table by 0.7647.

Let me know what you think!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

For anyone that's interested, I've been playing around in TunerPro RT a lot and customizing the ADX file. I've got a nice dash setup and corrected some value conversions. I'll upload it here for your enjoyment!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Here is the two files, The first is just the pw vs load reduced
The second one I changed the target idle, disabled the air/ egr and code 32
lowered the inj pw vs load and lowered the maf tables bye about 5% in fueling.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Are you sure that the stock 1987 2.8L bin fuel injectors size was 13Lb/Hr??

Hard for me to believe that my 3.1L stock had 15lbs and your EFI 2.8L has 13s......