OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

My '87 Camaro I just bought has a bit of a drive-ability issue. I'm not surprised as it's been sitting for 2 years or so. The ECM shows only code 12 so I am going to assume it's working properly.

Since I switched professions from being a mechanic back in 2000, I sold off some of my tools. One of which was a Snap-On Scantool. Really wish I still had it! Anyways, I'm going to purchase an ALDL USB cable and download WinALDL. I've looked around on the forums and have noted that I should have a "730" ECM which connects at 8192 baud. If anyone knows any different, please let me know.

Hopefully the setup will work okay on my netbook so I can monitor the sensors and see if anything is out of spec.

The drive-ability issue is this; when in open loop (upon startup) the car runs perfect, once it switches to closed up the car searches for idle (it goes up and down) and runs poorly (sounds like a misfire or sputtering). Searching through the forums I've seen some people mention Fuel Pressure Regulator, Ignition Module, and O2 sensor. Hopefully once I monitor the system the problem will be self evident. I'll update once the cable arrives and I have logged some data.

I almost forgot, here is the cable I ordered: ALDLCable.com

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

I just thought of something - I no longer have a listing of what correct values are for my sensors. Does anyone have a good source of what our sensors should be reading?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Your 87 does NOT have a 7730 ecm if it is the stock ecm. You have the 302 ecm. Which is a pos IMO.

code 12 no reference pulse could be a few things. Im not aware of how winaldl works as for what files you need. Are you connecting to the ecm currently to read the code? Could be anything from a horrid ground wire somewhere to the ecm and so on.

TunerproRT is a great software incase you ever look else where for software down the road. Its used by about 90% of the tuners on here on gm obd1 stuff.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Now, now, a buddy of mine (who used to be a member on here before he sold his car) couldn't connect his TunerPro to his 730 but it connected in moments to my 302. Can't say it's too bad. And MAF is preferred nowadays.

He doesn't have the cable yet... I've forgotten the baud rate for the 302 (along with the definition files), but I'm sure it can be looked up and that it's LESS than 8192. You may also need a resistor along with the cable (10K).

Look at the INT value and the BLMs, for starters (should be close to 128), followed by the CTS and IAT (should be close to each other when engine is completely cold), TPS should be .55 VDC. O2S monitored when engine is hot. MAF should be pretty low at idle (4-7 gm/sec), and shouldn't go over 160. IAC counts should be between 5-50.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info fasteddi and Maverick H1L! Am I to assume the best way to tell which ECM I have is to check the numbers on the unit? I don't know if it is stock or not.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

If the car is mostly stock, you can assume that, since the 86-88 V6 used a 302 ECM, the ECM is a 302. 1985 and 89 each had their own ECMs (89 had VATS before the 730 was put into the F-body).

The ECM MAY have been swapped, but since not many have actually done the 165 swap, and the car has been sitting for years, it's doubtful. You would be able to tell quite easily if the harness has been swapped for a 730.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

I doubt it's been swapped. The harness is stock and I am using a MAF sensor. I hope this cable shows up soon! I can't wait to dig in and start learning

project89

iTrader: (1)

my 89 has vats and a 302 ecm, well it did till i installed a megasquirt

project89

iTrader: (1)

i would say its the o2 sensor as thats what has most authority in closed loop , besdies the maf sensor

if u do have to change the o2 i would suggest a 3 wire o2 , yes they are more costly about 45 bucks versus 20-25 but i find the heated o2's to be more reliable

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, my cable finally showed up! Now I've just got to wait for nice weather It's been raining up here yesterday and today. It's also supposed to rain this weekend, I might have to wait until Monday.

camaro_V6_Tuner

Right ^

I'm also guessing it's an O2 sensor. Computer has not been swapped but the chip has. It's a hyperchip. Guess how I know

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Gee, I wonder how you know... psychic? I had thought you took the hyperchip out when you swapped to 5-speed and put in a stock chip. Either way, as a data analyst, I'm looking forward to playing with the data logs!

After reading my Haynes manual last night, I noticed that the O2 sensor should be replaced every 2 years on these! Sounds like a likely culprit! If so, everyone's saying I should go with a heated one.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the heated is nicer if u dont mind dpending the extra 20/25 bucks, u will have to wire it into a switched 12+ so it gets power when the car is running

one is a signal wire ( usually blue)
black wire is ground
grey wire is usually 12v+

ive also seen them come with black/white/blue and black/white/grey

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, time for some experts! Attached are my WinALDL log files.

I'll also put this over in the DFI and ECM forum.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Its hard to read them as im use to excel format. Ill keep looking it over though.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks fasteddi! You should be able to open them right up in Excel, I was able to do so with Excel 2007.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Im looking at your o2 sensor info and its all over the place from .0xx Mv all the way up to .9xx Mv.

You blm and ints are all over the place too at times but your o2 sensor has alot to do with the feed back to the ecm in close loop.

Do you notice a glitch at all on the laptop when your datalogging. I had on when i first started tuning but with some ppls help we got that taken car of.

I do see that your o2 sensor has a error code (rich). For as little as a new one cost I say toss a new on on and reset the ecm and see if that helps your issues. I know that a 02 sensor can really mess with the cars performance.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I noticed the O2 readings were erratic - but it's been so long since I've done this kind of thing that I wasn't sure what it was supposed to be doing.

The only glitch I had with the netbook was that it didn't save the logs at first. I'm running Windows 7 and had to set the program to run in Windows XP mode.

I saw the error code for the O2 sensor. Do you think I should go with a heated one or just a stock one? I see some people recommend the heated one but some people say it's not necessary with this ECM as it is pretty basic.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Personally for a normal daily driver V6 camaro id just go to autozone or a like parts store and pick up a normal stock one wire 02 sensor. A 3 wire (heated is better) but for the extra 20 bucks and labor of wireing it up, you really won't tell much of a difference from the heated compared to the stock style o2 sensor. Just toss on a new stock 02 sensor and do some more logging to make sure that everything is better.

The values in mv for the o2 should hover arround 400-600 for the most part when your just cruising. They should be somewhat steady though. Jumping from .080mv to .900mv within a second like it does isnt normal. When you go WOT though look to see the mv to jump up to .800-1.0mv and stay up there. Also the blm and int will be locked when going into WOT since it is jumping out of closed loop. Also being that you have a stock car there, your int and blm should be close to 128 plus or minus 5 when cruising in closed loop. Gm did pretty good at tuning the car from the factory. So when you numbers are erratic its usually a bad sensor, vacuum leak, or you just added aftermarket parts that the ecm doesnt keep up with.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

In closed loop the O2 sensor value should oscillate. See pic...

RBob.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I never noticed a swing or .0xx to .9xx in my car in closed loop before but im sure your right. Sorry about the misinformation... Just tought me something new. Thanks Rbob as always.

Gumby

Just a random odd question, have you ever noticed at what water temp this happens? when it changes from running good to bad.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Well, I put in a new O2 sensor. No change in performance. I will get another data log as soon as I can.

Gumby, it runs bad as soon as it enters closed loop. Giving it a small bit of throttle causes it to stumble. When I floor it, it picks up speed but it isn't smooth. Under part throttle, it backfires when I push the clutch in to shift. Not every time, but sometimes.

I've still yet to check the distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs, and coil.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks RBob! I appreciate the knowledge!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, here is another log file. Note, I was running with 1227170 since my 1227302 is not an option on WinALDL. I've since learned that 1226870 is a better match as it has a MAF reading.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The BLM is all over the place. Along with the O2 signal dropping to nearly zero at times. It may not be a closed loop issue, but an EGR issue.

Unplug the EGR solenoid and see what happens.

RBob.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

By unplug the EGR do you mean to unplug the vacuum line to it? If so, I did that and plugged the vacuum line so it wouldn't leak. Attached is the new log.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The Blm is still wild.

Im curious to what the TPS sensor value is. Is it in %? Its lower then 0%

Can you see what your IAC is when the car is at a dead idle warmed up? Is it arround 40-50 on the log and steady if you dont move the throttle or is the car hunting for idle? Its hard to see it in real life off the log for me.

Can you see the the Mv of the tps signal?

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

The RAW:TPS is in millivolts, the SENSOR:TPS is in %. The % values do indeed go slightly negative.

I'll have to get a log of it idling for the details, but it doesn't currently hunt for idle.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

EGR: yes to unplugging the vacuum line. Leave it disconnected and remove the CCP hose from the TB and plug the TB port. Also, see if fuel comes out of that hose. If so then the CCP canister is being flooded.

If that doesn't make any change, will need to dig deeper.

It could be bad wiring for the O2 sensor, fluctuating fuel pressure, bad MAF, bad ECM, injector harness wiring and connectors. This is why I'm suggesting the easy to check stuff first.

After the CCP test the next easiest to to check the fuel pressure while driving.

RBob.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, what's a CCP hose... I see a CCV (Canister Control Valve) hose on my diagram. Is this what you mean?

Looks like rain here for the next 3 days so I may not be able to get it on the road. But I will check the Fuel Pressure and leakdown and check the injectors (ohm reading) and wiring.

Gumby

CCP canister control purge valve,[electro valve thingy on canister] On mine it was buring out a small section of the ECM board making mine run awful, only found out when I looked at [3rd] computer board closer and put my hand on that valve one day as it was blazing hot, had an internal short i guess that sets off no code but will fry the ECM, even an after market one with burn out protection but only fries a small section so it still works, but runs like buttttttttttttt making you chase 999 other problems trying to fix it. [I got a whole carb top end still that nearly went on beofre I stumbled upon it.]

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Ouch! Thanks for the tip Gumby, I'll be sure to check mine. I hate chasing gremlins too. That's what I feel like I'm doing right now, I don't have a diagnostic guide for this car

I appreciate all the help I'm getting!

Gumby

diagnostic guides are of little help on these cars, all the big problems like [and the brake problem many have had] that are a game of chase your tail and drain your bank till you stumble upon something that works. [ has been for me]

That or these cars are more alive then we think and its just their way of getting new parts...........

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, the mechanic in me is happy! I finally got a copy of the 1987 Camaro Shop Manual! Woohoo! I now know MUCH more about reading the data stream! There is also a nice set of diagnostic steps for running rich

Unfortunately, my daughter's graduation/18th birthday party is Saturday so I'm not going to have time to mess with it again until Sunday.

I'll update again after I've run some tests!

Oops! Forgot to add my latest WinALDL log. This is at idle - I just wanted to get a baseline.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Okay, this is odd... Following the EFI diagnostic for a rich condition I tested the fuel pressure. 20 PSI. Really? Low pressure and it's running rich? Anyways it holds steady, so injectors are not leaking and it's not back feeding into the return line. That leaves fuel filter and fuel pump. Fuel filter should be here Saturday. I'll put it in on Sunday. If that doesn't work, then I need a fuel pump.

But none of that will cause a rich condition...

UPDATE:
Well, after googling about it on the interwebs, it turns out that low fuel pressure can cause a rich condition! Apparently the low pressure prevents fuel from atomizing properly when sprayed from the injectors. This improperly atomized gas doesn't burn as efficiently so the ECM sees it as too lean and increases the time the injectors spray - poof! Way too much gas!

So, I ordered the fuel pump from RockAuto as well. I figure I might as well put it in.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Don't forget that a line may also be blocked... What I would do if I had the time and thought it would help would be to disconnect the supply line at the fuel rail and put a hose either there or on the fuel filter outlet line into a bucket. Followed by a good shot of 90 PSI air at the other end.

You might do the same to the fuel pump outlet lines as well. Don't forget to replace the pump sock when you replace the pump and possibly that pulsator thing...

BTW, RockAuto blows. Every single penny, except for on "closeout" items, that they "save" you on the part they WILL hit you for in the shipping. Especially for those orders that are coming from multiple warehouses. I've had shipping on parts, never anything huge or heavy, be more costly than the part itself .

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the tips Maverick H1L! I'll plan on blowing the lines out when I have it apart - just to be sure.

I wouldn't say RockAuto blows... but one should always compare prices. I've found that for closeouts, RockAuto has the best prices. For regular parts, I'll compare with Amazon, Advance Auto, and Autozone. But I have found it pays to check prices on EVERYTHING!

And you are right about the shipping - when ordering from RockAuto I always buy from the same warehouse whenever possible and I always try to wait until I have enough parts for a big order.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to add something to those reading this that are new to fixing on cars - stay away from store brands! I always try to go with name brand parts with solid reputations. Research every brand/part before you buy. Especially with something like this fuel pump - I do not want to drop the tank again in a few weeks!

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Problem with that is that most "name brands" are made in the same factories in China nowadays. The same exact part can be sold under 3 different "manufacturer's" labels.

I know for a fact that I have a Delco power window switch for a mid-90s W-body sedan that says right on it "Made in Japan" (or somewhere over there, but it's most certainly NOT "Made in USA"). And this thing is NOT a direct plug-and-play switch, which is why I still have it (and can't for the life of me seem to throw it out).

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

UPDATE! I started on dropping the tank today. Had a bit of excitement yesterday with my daughter's 18th birthday/graduation party Wife also had some extra excitement as some idiot ran a stop sign about a block from our house as she was coming to the party She's fine, but the poor Cobalt is missing its nose!

Anyways, aside from all the excitement, my daughter and I made some progress; we removed the muffler and tailpipes, unbolted the mid-pipe, removed a heat shield, unbolted the panhard/track bar, unbolted the rear stabilizer bar, and unbolted one shock. One of the bolts on the panhard/track bar is seized though. I soaked it with PB Blaster and hopefully it will loosen. Also one lower shock bolt seized up as well. Again, I shot it with PB Blaster. I'll leave them to soak until tomorrow after work.

Another problem came from trying to get the rest of the gas out of the tank (and I'm open for suggestions), the fuel pump is now dead! I disconnected the hose from the fuel injection manifold and had my daughter's boyfriend turn the key to "on". Nothing! I hear the relay, but the pump no longer hums! I tried siphoning with a siphon from Harbor Freight, but it won't reach deep enough in the tank.

So, anyone know where I can get a quality siphon?

While it was sitting up on stands and the PB Blaster was soaking in, I also replaced the front caliper hardware. I had enough of the calipers rattling over bumps!

So, quite a bit done tonight, I'll update again tomorrow.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Since you're going to need to anyways, unhook the fuel tank connector at the body connector. Run 2 LOOONG jumper wires from the battery to the fuel tank. The positive wire goes to the GRAY fuel pump connector wire and the negative to the black one. (wire may not be gray but it is NOT the purple one!) If the pump doesn't run then, bang on the bottom of the tank kind of hard and the fuel pump MAY run, if it's not completely seized.

You may need to cut that bolt off on the track bar and replace the bushing... I had to completely replace my passenger's side LCA because both bolts were seized in the bushing sleeves (I chose to replace both arms at a cost of $50 rather than replace all of the bushings which would have been the same price).

CLEAN THE BOLTS USING A WIRE BRUSH AND TAPS AND DIES. USE ANTI-SEIZE COMPOUND WHEN YOU'RE PUTTING THINGS BACK TOGETHER. Use it EVERYWHERE. You will be glad you did when you have to drop the tank or rear axle again for whatever reason.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for that tip, I'll give it go tomorrow. Hopefully it will work long enough to get the gas out!

I was hoping not to cut it, but I can if I have to. Luckily it's only one bolt, the shock I should be able to get by using some pliers on the bolt.

Way ahead of you on this one! I've been taking the bolts over to my bench grinder with a wire wheel before putting them in Ziploc bags. I'll use plenty of anti-seize on the reassemble too! I'm also going to grab some stainless steel bolts for the mid-pipe to converter flange.

Gumby

Seafoam Deep Creep

how much gas? no need to remove it all, use a large square of wood on a jack.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

About 1/2 a tank so 7 or 8 gallons

Gumby

then just unhook it at the fuel filter, it will gravity siphon feed on its own till near empty. had mine break right there, even blowing air into the line with air compressor till I heard bubbles in the tank, soon as I stopped it was like someone turned on a garden hose.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Going to need a big bucket for that. I got almost 5 gallons (maybe more) out of mine.

Use the fuel pump or you could be waiting for a couple days for it to completely drain. Gravity bleeding is slow. I believe it was about 5-10 minutes using the fuel pump to drain the rest of my tank.

You got lucky with the suspension... I replaced each and every single bolt (except the front sway bar insulator bolts I have yet to replace but I have the bolts ). Any new bolts you need can be gotten from Spohn, but they will come in sets for both sides.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I'll try getting the pump to work again and use that. I've got two 5 gallon cans and a hose I can use.

Thanks for the info about Spohn! I was worried about where I would get those bolts for the panhard/track bar! I just ordered a set. You saved me a lot of hassle!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

And the gas tank is out! Now to clean it up and clean the area where it goes. I think I'll POR-15 the outside of it and above it as well while it's out.

I'll also check the lines very closely and replace anything that is too rusty.

camaro_V6_Tuner

Wow! Looks pretty solid!

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Not too shabby! Just some surface rust for the most part. The primary line shows some corrosion - I may just replace a section with a repair line from Advance Auto.