Youngs Fbody

18 x & 18 x 9 or 9.5" GNX/GTA replica wheels. Why I value every one's opinion. I would like to hear if you would buy these. What would be the price that you would say is just too much. What sizes you would want? Is the Black center fine? TTA guys saying no I want Gold. Maybe All Hi polished including centers or ? You know what would make you buy a set?

Youngs Fbody

for those of you that might not understand. I'm trying to get 250 people together so i can have these wheels produced. I need 250 sets/1000wheels sold before i can have them produced. if they are something you would be interested in please contact me via email or private message. thanks email is Codymyoung@yahoo.com

paul_huryk

I'm going to suggest that you drop the 8" wide wheel and concentrate on the 9.5" ones - there is no real advantage of going from a 245-50-16 tire to a 245-40-18 sized one in terms of performance.

Vintageracer

iTrader: (1)

Just like 14 and 15 inch tires today 17 inch tires will become harder to get as the trend for the manufacturer's is BIGGER diameter and size wheels/tires. Personally I would not make anything smaller than a 18 inch wheel. 18's and 19's are the trend for the performance buyer with a car. 20's are just to big and out of place on older performance cars such as ours. As you are aware you must build a wheel that fit's the largest "Buying" market not a small group of people here.

Is it your plan to make cast wheels, 2 piece or 3 piece wheels?

To sell the volume you say you need to get this project off the ground (1,000 wheels) you better be talking cast wheels to get the price you need to sell the wheels and you need that price point competitive with the repop wheel offerings from such suppliers such as Year One AND be in the $200/wheel range. IF you expect your retail price to be more than $300/wheel max you will have a tough time selling a cast wheel to this bunch most other buyer's I do not care how nice the wheel is!

Remember for the most part your major market for this particular wheels will be GTA/Camaro buyers and Grand National buyers and they both require different offsets. The GTA/Camaro needs staggered wheel offsets and the Grand National boys will want 4 front wheels.

This project might be a tough go from a marketing/sales standpoint. Meaning finding enough REAL buyers with REAL money that will actually pull the trigger and buy!

akanitro

iTrader: (2)

emailed

paul_huryk

As a wheel manufacturer myself, I want to put in my 2 cents on this posting - nothing personal, just advice...

Yes, 14" tires are hard to find these days... But 15" is easy to find, just don't expect a Pilot Sport in 215-65-15 (stock 1982 to 1987 Z28 size).

17" is a very popular size and there are a few dozen choices in 245-45-17 and 275-40-17, which fit the 3rd gens in terms of overall diameter.

One cannot ignore the fact that an 18" wheel with a 25.75" diameter tire gives a very short sidewall that is extremely easy to damage (tire and/or wheel). Modern cars like the 5th gen Camaro, Challenger, etc all have very tall tires - 2 or 3" larger in diameter than the 3rd gens. This allows them to use a 20" wheel with the equivalent 275-40-17 sidewall, which works good on street cars.

Most wheels are either one piece or three piece - a few oddballs are 2piece, but those we can ignore. You can get 1pc forged wheels, but the fitment isn't there for our cars. The absolute minimum you can get a quality 3pc wheel is going to be about $800 each.

1,000 wheels in 17" x 9.5" would be about 30 pallets 7' high - I get 300 at a time and that takes up 8 full skids. It would also fill up 3 20' containers if shipped.

Understand that the repo wheel market is based on high volume and lower quality materials. There is a foundry in China that makes all the IROC wheels in the world (every size) - they run 24 hours a day and nothing coming out the doors is tested nor does it meet DOT specifications. I'm sure the snowflakes and other wheels are DOT tested, but they aren't using the same materials that other wheels use that retail $100 more each.

3rd gens do not need different offsets front to rear to work correctly. In fact GM was silly to have different offsets in 16" wheels when 4 fronts work perfectly and improve handling. The g-body cars do have an issue with how large of a tire they can fit in the front with a stock style suspension - I think a 255 tire is the max without flares (someone correct me if I'm in error). 275 to 295 fits all the way around on the right wheel on a third gen (9.5 to 10.5 width).

This I agree with 100% - it is very hard to sell wheels when you are a new player and are focusing on a niche (only certain cars). Personally I have sold more wheels to CMC racers (who are super receptive to our design) than to street cars.

There are two major issues - budgets (price people will pay vs. sale price) and styling. Styling is subjective - although some designs will not allow you to run many brake kits (caliper to rear of spoke clearance). Price is a sticky point - the 1st gen guys with big budgets have no problem spending $4k to $6k for a set of 3pc wheels, trying to get over $1,000 for a set of 3rd gen wheels is a tough go, even if the bang for the buck is off the scale...

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

While I like the idea, I unfortunately think it's too narrow a market. The IROC wheels in 17, 18, 19" are relatively easy to sell because there are

a) A lot of IROC's out there that want a stock looking bigger wheel.
b) A lot of Z28's and base Camaros that want an IROC looking wheel.

But GTA wheels are a whole different ball game. There are relatively few GTA's in comparison to Camaros. And I don't see too many Formulas and Firebirds wanting to switch to GTA wheels. I actually really like the Formula wheels.

GNX market is even smaller than F-bodies.

Paul has mentioned that the 8" wheel is too narrow for getting a wide tire. There was a day that 245 width tires were wide tires. But nowadays, everything is wide. The 275 width fits our cars nicely. Not too big. Not too small. No rubbing. But 275 = 9.5" wheel.

I'm torn on what to do with my car. Black GTA with the stock gold GTA wheels at the moment. I've had 3 different tires on the car.

Goodyear Gatorbacks - long discontinued, and I wouldn't buy them if they were available again.
Goodyear GS-D3 - great tires, but also discontinued.
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S (all season) - the summer tire was discontinued about 5 years ago. And now the all season has run down production. Whatever is left on the shelves will not be replaceable in the future. I currently run the A/S and it has a long tread wear life. I expect it to last a long time.

This leaves me with a whopping 2 choices for summer tires on my GTA wheels. The BFG Sport-Comp2 or the Firestone Indy 500. These are a cheap replacement for the future. But I'd really rather buy some 275 GS-D3 or 275 Pilot Sport 2 or 245 Pilot Super Sport. All three choices means buying 17" wheels like Paul sells and then shelling out big bucks for the matching tires.

I've looked at the OG-SAN 17" wheels that look fairly close to GTA wheels. But honestly after 25 years of washing my GTA wheels, I'm hesitant to buy a bigger wheel that is just as hard to keep clean. It wasn't bad when I only drove the car during the summertime when I lived in Canada. But driving year round in Texas, it's harder to keep them clean. Yet another reason I'm leaning towards the CTW wheels that Paul sells.

So personally I'm on the fence. I like the deluxe look that the GTA wheels give. I like the contrast of gold wheels on a black car. But I also like the idea of awesome tires on 17" wheels that are easy to clean. I run top of the line stock sized brakes, so the bigger brake aspect doesn't really apply to me. But I do like the option of it being available. Then again, I live in an apartment. So storing 4 GTA wheels in a closet or spare bedroom is something my wife is going to kill me for. So I may just end up keeping the stock wheels and doing the BFG tires in the future.

Having said the above, I would not be interested in an 18" GTA wheel.

paul_huryk

If you do buy new tires for your GTA wheels, the BFG Sports are the way to go - way better than the Firestones in every aspect (practically same price also).

Keep this in mind when upgrading - 275-40-17 tires are only a bit more than 245-50-16 sized ones, so if you need new 16" tires, moving up to a 17" (or 18") costs less when you factor in replacement costs. You may also be able to sell your old wheels to recoop some costs too.

I'm talking generally here, 10 years ago there were 10 or 12 summer tires in 245-50-16, now there are 2. And yes you can fit a 225-55-16 tire on our 8" OEM wheels, which might be blasphemy to some, but there are over 15 hardcore summer tires in that size...

Wider is better of course - a 275-40-17 will handle and stop better and may also provide a better 60' than equivalent 245-50-16 sized tires. This has been proven in both magazine testing and also hardcore grassroots racing. I would say that the 275-35-18 would be similar, just with a ride and weight penalty (and some damage on bad roads).

Youngs Fbody

Come on guys. Let me here some more opionions. I still have a ways to go before I can produce them. Let me know what you fellas want too see?

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Well for no hassle fitment I think 18x8 for the front and 18x9.5 for the back should work. I would like to see them in gold personally as I'm not a fan of the black.

I know people put 9.5 on the front, which would be cool though I look at my wheels now and think 9" would be the max you could fit without pushing the wheel out anymore beyond stock.

My pick:

18 x 8" & 18 X 9.5" Gold center with polished edge

Ruckusz28

iTrader: (3)

Wound look mighty nice on a G-body!

Stangski09

iTrader: (10)

Wicked idea!
Id be in for a set of 18x9 in gold.

250 sets is farfetched sadly..


Great idea though!

T/Aperformance

I would like to see. 18x9.5 for the front and 18X12 for the rear. I would want them in black with a deep dish polished lip.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Bringing an old thread back to life:

I think you may be approaching this from the wrong angle. Instead of trying to come up with a one-size-fits-all wheel, which will please only a portion of the potential market, why not do this in a way that offers options?

Awhile back, I saw a set of wheels being made on some show, or other. They machined the center section of the wheel, placed the hoop of the appropriate size and width in a jig with the desired offset, heated the hoop with a torch to get it to expand, and placed the center section in the jig, checking it carefully for true.

After the wheel had cooled, and the hoop had contracted around the center section, they placed the wheel on a balancer to ensure it was perfectly true, welded the center section to the hoop from the backside, then rechecked the wheel on the balancer, grinding the weld slightly and rechecking it until it was again perfectly true.

now, paul_huryk, as a wheel manufacturer, you're going to know a lot more about this than I do, so please weigh in here, correcting me anywhere I might be wrong.

The fact is, there is nothing special about the hoops of GTA wheels; it's the center section that is unique.

I spoke with a wheel manufacturer about 17" and 18" GTA wheels a few years back. He said the intricacy of the wheel would require an enormous amount of CNC time, which would necessitate a very high cost. He strongly felt the only viable solution was casting.

My question is, why not cast the centers, then use off-the-shelf hoops, doing the wheels in the manner I described above?

You could then offer a huge variety of sizes and offset options.

Since the welding is done on the backside, could you not pre-finish the centers in the color/polishing/chrome option of choice before assembly?

Also, I believe I read somewhere that standard wheel hoops are available so you could make 17", or 18" wheels out of the same center sections. If this is correct, you would only have to have one center section cast. Maybe one for 17" and 18", and another for 19" and 20".

I've seen GTA wheels on pickup truck, Chevelles, 1st & 2nd gen f-bodies ...... I believe there's a market there; especially if people had options on size, width, and back-spacing.

Would this not be a better way to go?

This is similar to the piece I saw. They're doing a forged wheel, but the process is the same, isn't it? I know cast aluminum can successfully be TIG welded.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...uminum_wheels/

paul_huryk

I'll weigh in since you mentioned my name, lol.

In wheel manufacturing, there are three types of processes (and some sub types):

1) Cast wheels - easiest to manufacture, cheapest, heaviest, and usually the least strong. GTA, IROC, Formula, Z28 wheels all fall into this category.

2) Forged wheels - either 1pc, 2pc, or 3pc design. Good - usually the lightest, single piece wheels are exceptionally strong (2pc less, 3pc least) - but the weakest are still as strong as the best cast wheels. 2pc and 3pc allow you to change width and BS to get the fitment perfect. Bad - easily over $600 a wheel for even low end 1pc in a larger size.

3) CNC billet or forged wheels - can be 1pc, 2pc, or 3pc. Good - depending on design can be as strong as a forged wheel. Can be made in any design practically. Bad - you are paying for CNC machine time - so complicated designs can cost well over $1,500 a wheel. Some designs can be extremely heavy due to material left in the finished product.

I wanted to go over these again as it matters for the end product - do you want a $350 18" wheel or a similar design for $1,100 each? I know some members have expensive wheels here on this board, but that is the exception, not the rule.

So my suggestion is to concentrate on a 18" x 9.5" wheel to hit the $1,500 or so price point for a set of 4 ($375 each). This would entail a semi-forged design (in the ballpark of the technology we are using) to achieve - forged would be at least $600/wheel, even in a large bulk run.

You can certainly weld aluminum - some wheel manufacturers do that now. But the liability issues of wheels are already sky high (my liability insurance is losing sleep levels of high), welding as a fastening procedure would definitely add more liability potential. Better off going 1pc in your quest.

The idea of offering multiple sizes through a 3pc offering is a good one, but one must look into the market of what people would actually buy for both 3rd gens and also cars with similar fitments. I don't think 19" and 20" make sense for car with 26" tall tires - 19" wheels have limited tire selection and 20" has essentially no sidewall - plus they both weigh too much. I would look at a 18" x 9.5" wheel honestly - it can run a 275-35-18 tire (super popular) and be tucked in a bit, not having tie rod issues like the 17" does. You could also offer a 8.5" to fit other applications such as the front of 2nd gens and older GM cars.

Hopefully I am pointing you in the right direction to make the decision that makes sense.

akanitro

iTrader: (2)

Make them and I am a buyer. I can even give an upfront deposit.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for responding.

I understand the difference between the different types of wheels, and the price points.

And I agree about the high end wheels. HRE already makes a 3-piece wheel that looks almost exactly like the GTA wheel, and they're about 3 grand a set; available in pretty much any offset you like.

I also agree about 19" and 20" wheels. There's a 3rd gen Camaro running around town with 20s on it, and in my opinion, it is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Regardless of what I think, however, if you look at past threads on this subject, there are always people saying they want 19s and 20s. I would be more than happy with a choice of 17" and 18" wheels, but everyone's taste is not the same as mine.

As far as getting a one-piece wheel, I've been on this site since 2003, and threads about 17" and 18" GTA wheels were among the first I read after joining. When Year One began manufacturing the 2nd Gen snowflake wheels, I had a long conversation with Keith Maney, who is a big 3rd gen fan, and was the driving force behind their NextGen catalog for 3rd gen Camaros and Firebirds. He said he'd been advocating for those wheels for a long time, but the whole NextGen concept he'd sold Kevin King on, thinking that 3rd gens were going to be the next big thing, hadn't panned out, and there was no chance of their producing this wheel.

If anyone would be likely to do it, I'd think it would be Bruce Hawkins. I spoke with him about it in 2007, and he said there were no plans to do it, that he didn't think they could sell enough wheels to justify the investment. If HE can't sell enough to be profitable, I don't see how anyone else could.

The bottom line is, if no one has produced these wheels in the past 11 years, it's pretty unlikely they're going to do them now. That's why I'm trying to find another way. I understand you don't like welding wheels, but TrueForged is a pretty reputable company, and they do it; apparently successfully. In another thread about widening 16" GTA wheels, you explained the hazards of widening wheels in great detail, yet narrowing and widening wheels is WeldWheels' business, and they apparently do a lot of it. They insist their wheels are routinely used in drag and road racing applications, with no problems. Clearly, there is more than one school of thought on this. As a layman, I can only surmise that welding on aluminum wheels would need to be done by experts, under carefully-controlled conditions.

What I'm asking is, if only for the sake of discussion, you might put your skepticism aside for a moment and discuss the possibilities.

In the article I linked above, they were welding a forged center to a forged hoop. Would welding a cast center to a forged hoop present any additional difficulties, other than the forged center's being inherently stronger than the cast center?

Also, can you discuss the off-the-shelf hoops available? Could you use the same center in a commercially available 17", and an 18" hoop?

paul_huryk

Ok

There is always a fine line (sometimes not so fine) between the costs (spread between buy and selling), inventory, and market reception - no different from other businesses. Obviously the high end 3pc forged wheel companies can make wheels for any car, it is really up to one's checkbook and aesthetic preferences.

I'm not necessarily against welded wheels - the problem from a manufacturing standpoint (as a supplier, not a modification shop) is the liability aspect, it would be an issue with getting proper insurance for anything resembling a reasonable price. Personally, I've had 2 customers widen a pair of our wheels with no problems - not much to fear when a reputable shop widens a quality wheel.

I'm not a wheel expert, so asking me about the welding aspect is not in my area of expertise.

One thing I will say is that not all wheel hoops are the same. even our wheels differ from the BMW version in that aspect (in the same size) due to offset and also the reinforcement of any weak spots of possible fatigue. But in terms of clearance, no difference where it bolts to a car's hub.

As far as I know, every manufacturer has a proprietary hoop design that works best for them. In the case of CNC machines wheels, you can replicate just about any hoop design, but that is all included in cost of machining - much more expensive than cast or forging in bulk.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

That makes sense. However, if a manufacturer decided to make these wheels, the assumption would be that they already make wheels this way, and would therefore already carry the necessary insurance.

Is the method of heating the hoop, inserting the center, and welding the center in a common one?


Being in the business, do you know of anyone who is an expert on this/who might be approachable about making the wheel?

I don't think I've been clear on what I've been trying to say. Let's say you have a 17" hoop, that steps down to a smaller-diameter center (as the GTA wheel does). For the sake of discussion, let's say it steps down 1", so the center piece that goes into the hoop is 16" in diameter. What I'm wondering is, would it be feasible to have a 17" hoop that steps down 1" (again, that 1" number is just an example for the sake of discussion), and an 18" hoop that steps down 2" in diameter, so you could use the same center for both 17" and 18" wheels?

On the show I saw where they heated the hoop, and welded in the center, they had a warehouse full of hoops on pallets, wrapped in shipping plastic, that they got the hoop they used from. I assumed they were using generic hoops, or at least hoops they'd had manufactured elsewhere.

wgripp

iTrader: (1)

I think it would be possible to use the same center for 17 and 18 inch wheels, but if we're gonna fork out the $$$ for 18s, we want bigger centers!

paul_huryk

If you make wheels already, then probably yes. But in our case, I needed separate insurance for my company to cover liability of wheels sold in the company name too - for both my landlord (his lease requirements) and also to protect my company. I do have another level of insurance through the company that produces out wheels too.

Not sure how common it is, but I'm 90% sure Weld uses that technique in the RT-S and other wheels.

I'm aware of no experts out there - just really sharp people who made their own wheels and are successful in both manufacturing and/or marketing of their products. I know there are some 3rd party wheel manufacturers out there - do some research and contact the appropriate ones.

I understand what you are saying. I have heard of a few outfits that have done it on a few wheels for customers to preserve a look using a different hoop. You are really talking about 3pc wheels at this point, which may be too expensive at the consumer level to make the project feasible.

That pretty much sounds like a video I saw regarding the creation of a 3pc wheel from one the the notable manufacturers - they didn't weld, but used hardware in that case. Hoops could have been from anywhere - big wheel companies have the ability to turn metal into hoops in a few steps - some almost the same way a gutter company can turn flat sheet aluminum into perfect 1pc gutters for your house.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I don't understand how it would be a 3-piece wheel. If you have a center, welded to a hoop, isn't that a 2-piece wheel?

monkey-leader

Id be interested, problem is, its been so long, most of these people probably went with other rims.

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

You make replica GTA wheels in a 18" x 9.5" or 10" wheel, Im buying. If nothing is available in about a year Im going with those BREs.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

From: David Gravley <davidg@yearone.com>;

Sean,
Thank you for your inquiry about our Year One Wheels. At this time we have no plans to make the GTA style wheel.

We are exploring 18” wheel designs and manufacturing techniques that may open the door for that wheel to be reproduced in a larger diameter. Keep an eye on our
website for further developments.

Thank you,
David Gravley
Year One Inc
Product Development Mgr
706-658-2140 x5462

paul_huryk

My bad.

I was on the mindset of a 2pc hoop and a 1pc center = 3pc wheel.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Bringing an old thread back to life (again),

Here is an imperfect, 17"-only, but fairly inexpensive alternative:

http://www.xxrwheels.com/xxr_536.shtml#

They only show 15" there, but here, they show it in 17 x 9, +25mm offset, in 5 x 100mm and 5 x 114.5mm for 177.20 each.

http://www.carid.com/search/xxr-536

Obviously, adapters would be required, and I'm not sure they'd work with that offset.

The thinnest adapter here is 1" thick.

http://adaptitusa.com/5x475to5x110wheeladapters.aspx

That would just about cancel out the +25mm offset, wouldn't it? If so, that would put me right at 4 1/2" backspace.

Would that fit, front and rear?