Well, I have an XT manifold headed this way. I've been a stock or stock-ish player so I'm new to the whole fuel rail thing.

I'll be running 58psi line pressures.

1) It looks like the twist-lock/barbed flexible hose fittings may offer a cheaper alternative (suggestions on good and affordable hoses, just running gasoline?)
Is this satisfactory for EFI uses where you see 58psi? Anything special need to be done.

2) Currently to do it all up in a conventional routing including Adjustable FPR, braided lines and fittings I'm calculating about 250$ (that is with a Pro Products regulator not including rails.) (If I were to use the ProProducts rails (if they fit) it would be less, but instead I'm using Edelbrock rails and it looks to be 250 + plus the rails...)

3) Suggestions on an affordable adjustable regulator that is reliable?

4) I've heard things about modifying GNX/LT1 etc regulators. Where can I get more information on this?

5) Where do you get an appropriate schrader valve to add to aftermarket rails? Is any normal schrader ok (I believe the standard is 1/8 NPT)

In full disclosure, my interaction with my car is variable and as such, there may be lags where very little is done for a while, so just an FYI.

Thanks for all the help, I should be able to start mocking stuff up pretty soon.

 

Ok, I had a chance to talk to Russel today and get some measurements.

Russel:
Twist-lok hose is fine with EFI pressures as is ProFlex, however the key is not letting the lines dry out. Then you don't have to worry about replacing them every 3 years as it used to be apparantly.

This is going to be a tight fit in my y-body...

As for fuel rails, I think the Pro Products will fit (after you make the spacers to put them higher like Edelbrock provides.) The injector bore spacing, spacing between pairs, and spacing between holes all about matches up with my estimated measurements in the ProProducts thread...still waiting on confirmation on that though.

Runners are 5" long
They recommend 1205 gasket, but the actual ports are ~1.12" x 1.84"
Inside the plenum they are more like ~ 1.47" x 2"
Inlet measures 89.5mm in diameter

I'm excited but there is going to be a little bit of work to see if I can get it to work and how the best way to do that.

 

How much are the pro-products rails?

The pro-flo rails are $117, which seamed reasonable to me.. Again, I wish they sold it as a rail kit like holley did.. You need to fabricate the crossovers, and regulator, and buy a bunch of an fittings.

I think I showed you a picture of my C4 I owned, I used the twist-tite lines and fittings. Worked great, although blue is sort of ugly. Summit sells the fittings to convert from the saginaw to -6, although I deleted the whole hard line on the C4 because the stupid thing runs right next to the headers and heats the fuel up. I instead wend down under the HVAC box, and went right into the fuel filter with the adapter. I also deleted the harmonic baffle on the return side (above fuel filter on some year C4s).

I'm interested in the pro-flo. Some guy on corvette forum put one in his C4, and used a throttle body adapter to spin the throttle body up-side-down (like I did on mine, oddly enough) for hood clearance.

I'm kind of torn on the issue.. I'd like to use the pro-flo because its new and looks neat, but I don't want to be nickle and dimed to death on fittings and parts.. Hood clearance on my big fat 2nd gen should be fine.

However, I need to plumb a return to my tank, and even then I've heard complaints of fuel starvation with a non-baffled fuel tank.. yay.

So the pro-flo needs some porting huh?

-- Joe

 

People got them on a deal for 135$ at that one point, ~215$ now. But you still need more fittings, so for Summit brand/Fragola fittings you will be close to the PF rails. So that is why I have those coming.


I agree, I wish they did it differently.

Yes, I am debating doing that. Thanks for the pictures, do you have more pics of the routing? I'm thinking I may just do that, the cost is nearly the same just a bit more hose.

I don't mind the color too much, the black russell stuff is about the same as their braided lines though. Just so long as I don't have to replace them in 3 years.

How did you hold the lines in place?

Yeah, I saw that. I'm not sure how thermostat housing clearance would work with that. I also think it will be a lot cleaner install using a ford TB. I'm probably going to use a 90mm (overkill) just so all is flush, but we'll see. I'm getting a stock 5.0 TB this weekend and the IAC adapter so I can mock things up. I might have to "clearance" the water neck bubble with a BFH but that is ok with me...

Yeah, we'll see how this goes. I think hood clearance will be cake for you guys. You can bolt on a LS throttle body and use the right housing and you will be fine. The fittings etc is a bit of a pain, but if it performs like it is supposed to, it could be a worthwhile alternative. I don't know though, if I had more clearance I can't say I wouldn't just be running an HSR.


Yeah, so how do you port a manifold like this, but maintain port taper... hmmm.
I'll install it as is, but yes, porting in the future (doesn't end does it?)

Thanks for the reply Joe.
Chris

 

Where are you getting all your info from? I tried gathering info shortly after it was supposedly released and couldn't find anything. I even emailed and called edelbrock and never heard back from either source. Like I know nothing of the waterneck, or which one to buy. Or if you can use a stock LS1 throttle body with some sort of adapter? Or where to get the brackets to use standard height injectors on their rails? All of the most important information to me is still a mystery.

Care to shed some light on where I can read?

 

Where am I getting my info... well it involes a tape measure/dial caliper and:


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-11/1349607/2115759

They have information on general dimensions and info on the waterneck on the site, I think transdapt 9772 or something like that, I have a GM 660 in the photos mocked up.

LS1 should bolt right up, the reason why they sell a TB is because it is 90mm.

You get the brackets in the kit for the XT fuel rail. I don't believe they are selling these separately as it doesn't make sense, since they can get more money for the whole kit. You can probably make them though.

I tried the forum and calling and eventually broke down and got it to take measurements, it is the only way to really know.

Let me know what else you need.

 

I wonder if the spacing is the same for the holley. I should check that out.

I guess really it's not a big deal. If you can calculate the distance between the rails, just get some fittings with flare ends so you can flare a 3/8" brake like for the cross overs. I'd cross over both front and rear, then run the feed in the rear, and a return in the front.

All I have is what is on my singleplane-ls1 folder on my home page. I didn't keep the car very long after doing the singleplane swap. I liked the motor a lot more than I liked the car.

Didn't really. Some loose zip ties, but for the most part I routed them up under the hvac box, and I think around the from square part of the frame, and over the valve cover. This is the first time I've used the twist/push lock stuff and I thought it worked well.. I'm not sure if it passes tech yet at all tracks. I've read where it was NHRA approved but other places say no.

The problem with the ford stuff was the IAC for me, that and LSx throttle bodies were really short money. If I recall, a Vortec 5.3 throttle body is 76MM which is 3", and around $60 on ebay. Considering all my stuff used 3" pipe from the blower, that kind just worked out peachy for me.

The really big question here is, will it have the same issues as the miniram with some cyls being richer or leaner than others. Will idle be a bear to tune, and will it make as much power.


Good question.. I don't do a lot of porting. I've gasket matched heads just to fix a poor transition, but without a way of really testing if you are making things bad or worse I usually leave it up to the pros. With that said, I like to get stuff that is as close as possible to a gasket.. I understand AFR heads are not quite the same as the gasket, so I guess it might not matter all that much that the XT is a hair off.


I'm still debating what I'd like to do with my build. I like the idea of the LSx throttle body, but at the same time I feel like a singleplane will get better and more even air distribution in the cylinders. Though the 4bbl throttle bodies, or at least the holley I tried a few years ago was kind of laggy on the street.

I also need to decide if I want to go with a blower on this motor or not, as that will in some ways aid to manifold selection..

Good luck! I'm looking forward to seeing your results.

-- Joe

 

subscribed....

 

You can't see the feed, but I just ran the hoses to here.


-- Joe

 

Nice, yeah, you know it might be a lot cheaper/easier to do that than to try to convert to the lines up top...

I'll look into this more.

I'm waffling on what to do about a thottle body...

Do you know what the Vortec ones flow? Since you were blown it probably didn't matter too much.

 

I would assume that's the map sensor hole on the rear passenger side? What kind of sensor will fit that?

Also for the throttle body, I thought the 90mm throttle bodies had a larger bolt pattern, how will a stock one fit on this intake? I know that edelbrock makes an adapter for such a project but would rather not have to use that. What about a bracket for the throttle cable? What about the throttle cable itself?

Before you install this on the engine, could you compare its size to a stock tpi intake? I am curious what my hood clearance is going to be like since I have a trans am. I am hoping its shorter than a stealth ram so I don't have to worry about the hood.

Thanks for the pictures. They were very helpful!

 

Good question. I thought I posted a chart a while back of throttle body flow data.. The vortec (5.3, not 5.7) is 76MM which is roughly 3 inches, which was what my blower piping was so upgrading to a larger throttle body would have zero benefit.

http://www.accufabracing.com/Flow%20Data.htm

From that chart, this is probably closest to the vortec one (probably identical):



STOCK 1998 & UP CAMARO LS1 75MM
TESTED @ 5" - 337 CFM
CORR @ 20" - 674 CFM
CORR @ 25" - 754 CFM
CORR @ 28" - 798 CFM


So I'd say it's probably equal to about a 800cfm carb ?

-- Joe

 

Joe,

Yeah that is about what I could find as well. So I could fork over ~140 for the ported LS1 throttle body and adapter plate, or I could fork over twice that + for the Edelbrock 90mm.

I'll have to find out how thick the LS1 adapter plate is. If it is pretty thick, I may have to avoid that just due to hood clearance.

The real problem is with flow, do I use the MAF flow rating as my choke point? If so, then a stock 75mm should be about right. If I compare to the current TB I'll need to go at least to a ported 75mm. Decisions, decisions.

I think that the Accufab posted LS1 ratings are right for stock LS1 styles, I think some of the vortec's came stock with a baffle on the backside of the throttle blades. So for those I would expect less flow, however once that is removed I wouldn't be suprised if flow was identical.

 

Yep, MAP sensor. Don't know how I am going to plug that yet since I don't use a MAP. I don't necessarily want to thread the hole and ruin the opportunity to run a MAP down the road/resale value.

As far as I know, they do not have a different bolt pattern. Where did you get this from?
The difference from what I can tell is that the passages for the IAC/PCV passage are obviously smaller. Thus when you run an LS1 75mm bore you have to a put a plate in between so they aren't just open into the plenum, make sense?

Throttle bracket/cable...working on it.

I am hoping the same thing, as I would probably run an HSR and just be done with it, but it doesn't fit and the common mods done to make it work...well I don't like how they are done.

Also, as shown in some mags the HSR out performs the single plane and I think if anything, the XT should best if not be very similar to the HSR
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ine/index.html

What measurements are you looking for? The ones on the edelbrock site are pretty dead on. Top of the throttle body flange is ~9.00-9.05", the flange is located right about where the second intake bolt is on the driver's side and the rest of the plenum is 8.2" high.


The project is slowing down a bit due to the holidays and some big trips for work I have coming up. I'll try to keep everyone updated as I can.

 

Can't be any worse than your Vette?
No baffles in a C4 tank and you know what happens to them if you nail it hard with less than a 1/4 tank of gas

 

Mmmm, Fuel Safe fuel cell? (One can dream right?)

 

I'm wondering if thats an LS1 style map sensor. I know it looks nothing like the tpi/lt1 sensors do.

I was actually just assuming that the bolt pattern was different because of the larger size of the throttle body itself. I have no real idea though so it was just a guess.

As for measurements, I didn't see the ones on their website. That's all I needed to know.

 

You know. Thats a damn good point.

And the 2nd gen has a 5/16" hard line to the tank already, so it makes a good place for a return.

I'll probably go with another holley singleplane. Makes plumbing easier with boost.

-- Joe

 

Is that car going to be blown as well?

You are going to be able to plumb Holley SP's in your sleep soon.

I'm curious, do you think anyone has used this setup before? Looks a bit like a knock off Aeromotive setup, but a steal with all those fittings...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=280433080673

 

I believe it is, I am just gonna plug it somehow I think.

I'm pretty sure the TB mounting holes are the same.

 

Joe,

So does the holley system have something like this in it? I'm thinking I may do that so it runs to both rails before the opposite ends of both of the rails going into the regulator on the other side. Cheaper than a Y-block and easier to fit.


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AER-FBM2705/

Thoughts?

 

That is how they do it. One of those runs on one of the rails, which gives you crossover and a feed. Hard lines cross the rails in the rear and front. The regulator mounts on one of the rails, on a drilled port with two bolts and an o-ring seal. (like an LTx regulator). Used to run my feed in the front left, and return on the back side of the right rail. They run a jam nut on it, if I recall. The rails are advertised as pipe thread, but the fittings have o-rings. (see attachment)


Everyone says the edelbrock spacing is the same as the holley. I wonder if the complete holley fuel rail kit would "just work" on the edelbrock. Maybe with brackets.

I like the holley because it's cost effective and rather complete, however I'm not all that convinced it can support upper RPM, higher flowing motors. It's a 1205 port, but has a narrow runner.

-- Joe

 

Hmm, the o-rings sure are nice. Don't have to use teflon tape I'd imagine.

For 234$ too, man you cannot beat that price.

I think I am in too deep to switch now, but that is a helluva deal. (Assuming these problems with the regulators leaking are flukes.)

The 1205 well, its hard to say what it could support depending on the taper down to that side, or lack thereof. Does it have enough meat to go to a 1206?

Thanks Joe!
Chris

 

I don't think it's going to a 1206 port.. I'm not all that convinced a 1206 is needed either, it's that the inside of the holley runner is kind of narrow. It happens to be a 1205 at the flange, but if you measured the runner volume I bet you it's smaller inside. It should have an average inside diameter of what, 1.85" but it's not.. Some really crazy porting could fix it, but I think you would break though the casting.

You could buy the holley ends with the orings, I lost one years ago and had to replace it. They nail you about $20 per fitting however..

Right now I'm still working out transmission, so I have not even considered intake yet.. I'll work that out in the spring.

Good luck!

-- Joe

 

Oh, I see. So basically you'd have to weld or epozy new material to get the CSA up throughout the whole runner.That is one advantage to the XT and tunnel rams. You don't really hit a pinch point and there is a taper throughout. I'm going to run it stock, but I think some cleaning up to the manifold would do wonders too.

20$/fitting. Yikes, I think I've come up with an acceptable solution. If you ever have one a rail set lying around PM me and maybe I can just fit it up and see if it fits. I just don't want to spend the money, that I don't have especially at Christmas, on it since I've already moved on the XT rails. The standoffs really wouldn't be too hard to fabricate.

Good work, I really should be focusing my efforts on the exterior and getting a new paint job while saving for a new tranny. But, alas my will power is low and new engine parts are too much fun. What transmission are you running in it?

 

Sounds good.. Christmas is always tight for everybody.

I'm running a new process 833 transmission in the 2nd gen. It's a 4spd with OD in the 4th gear. They ran them behind hemi's and such, have like a 500 foot lbs torque rating, iron case, etc. Same length as a Th350 when attached to the bell housing.

-- Joe

 

Your 2nd gen. has less hood clearance than a 3rd gen. You can squeeze a HSR in the 3rd gen, but it won't fit in the 2nd. Check how this one compares to the HSR.

 

Hey man,

I was under the impression the hood clearance in the center is higher than a third gen, it's the sides (above the valve cover) where the hood dips down for the turn signal body line that reduces hood clearance by nearly 4"?

I had planned this great old forced induction, but my machinest told me my 2-bolt main 400 block will drop the crank on the pavement so I'm kinda stuck at this point.

-- Joe

 

regarding fuel rails for the XT... are the victor EFI rails the same as the XT rails offered? I would think they are or very similar and the victor rails are only 80 bucks. Not sure how much the XT rails are...

But an option is to use the holley fuel rail kit if you dont want to piece things together. It should fit on the XT since the injector spacing is the same but no idea on the cross over tube they have. Victor rails fit the stealth ram, so the stealth ram rails should fit the victor and also could fit the XT.

But its not a huge pain to make your own lines

I thinK i may have a -6an o-ring fitting or two laying around for holley style rails if anyone wants one. I also have four -8an o-ring fittings that i never needed.

 

I would believe that all of those rails would work with respect to injector spacing and probably mounting bolt spacing, check the thread on ProProducts rails for an image with measurements. TB clearance issues is another story, but probably similar to HSR stuff.

The proflo stuff is like 113 or so, so not a huge difference. The only issue is the XT stuff comes with the pre-fabbed standoffs for the rails. The manifold is drilled for pico injectors and if you want to use full length injectors you have to make little adapter pieces. This shouldn't be too hard but I decided I'd rather just have it done and have the alignment right.

What -6 AN fittings do you have? I might be able to use some of them.

 

let me take a look tomorrow and i'll see if i have any left over.