Well my poor 91RS has been occupying my garage for over a year and not started. I put a lot of money into her back in the day and "finished" her, but I was never extremely happy with the results.

I built her on a minimal budget and kept her as a TBI even after the engine swap. I could never get out of her what I thought she should have been capable of. I had an EBL put on and tuned by the man himself. I think they're still 55# injectors, and I know that's part of it. But man, this thing just falls on its face at about 4k RPMs. It's pathetic.

I've been out of this whole modding game a while, so I'm not even sure what the latest and greatest is. But with that in mind, I HATE TUNING. I've seen these recent self tuning systems, etc, but I'm unsure how well they go into a car with an existing TBI system. I've search my butt off on the internet and most of these are going into cars that were running carbs or TPIs, etc.

I'm not married to one of these systems, but I am curious. I want to bring my baby back to life and I've got the money to do so.

So here are some of the parameters:

- EFI of some sorts. Self tuning type systems much preferred.
- Ease of install. I don't have all of the old tools and help that I used to, so fabricating things is out of the question.
- Keep the stock hood.
- Continue to pass smog.
- The budget is flexible, if not really much of a concern.

Hopefully you can still see my sig here for what the car has and specs, etc.

Do your worst guys.

From a few years ago

Once you have converted to TPI ECM / harness

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...036-post5.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/tbitotpi

then you can choose the better performing intake of your choice.HSR/MR/SR
Obviously need other mods , cam etc to take full advantage of extra breathing ability

Aftermarket ECM's are more user friendly but expensive

Although it would go against my "self learning" slant, I have thought about going with the Mini-ram as a way to keep all of the stock stuff working without bypassing things.

My cam is a fairly easy one to tune with and should even be easy for a mail order. 204/214 .429/.452 116 with some 1.6 RRs.

But then I would still be in the same issues with tuning and I've read that the miniram can be a PIA to tune at idle. Maybe get the TBI to TPI conversion harness and then go to the HSR with a commander ECU???

I'd go with more cam and a FAST EZ EFI retro kit for TBI.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-302000/

Would I still not need their throttle body and injectors?

Seen this setup? Very self contained
http://www.race-mart.com/Professiona...PC-70020.html#

I have never come across it or heard mention of it before.
All you need is a 4bbl intake

Yeah, I remember a few years back before they were bought out. The system from what I read is pretty good.

My question with any of these systems would be how the electronics integrates with my existing TBI w/ EBL computer. I have a Crane ignition box for the tach signal, but my main concern is that things like my speedometer and torque converter lockup work, and I'm not driving around with a CEL on.

I'm already running a Walbro 190, so I would think it would be sufficient for most of these systems. However I installed that thing a decade ago and don't know the specs on it anymore.

self tuning, easy installation, fuel injection http://www.professional-products.com/EFI_3.php

Yeah, that's what the guy above posted. My questions about ECU integration still remain though.

I talked to the guys at Professional Products about the Powerjection III. So it's entirely stand alone unit that shouldn't interfere at all with the stock computer. It just gets a tach signal from the distributor (or in my case the Crane CD box).

The one thing he did mention is that it would trigger the check engine light to be on since it wouldn't see the throttle body anymore. That would get super annoying, does anybody know how to address that?

Also, the guy couldn't really give me (or I didn't understand) what he was saying regarding the torque converter lockup. He seemed to imply that there would be no affect.

take the light bulb out
As this system is completely sell contained I don't see it being any different from doing a carb swap
I assume the new ECM has spark control so that takes the stock ECM out of the picture a far as engine operation is concerned
IIRC
In your car, the VSS signal goes from VSS to ECM to dash so the stock ECM would remain powered up for non engine functions?

There are work arounds for TCC control from a switch in the trans to give auto lockup in 4th gear to a manual switch giving lockup on demand

If your trans is electronic, you need the b&m switch 80217, to manually switch into overdrive. If you have a cable style, attach to a spot on throttle lever and adjust accordingly.

It's your run of the mill 700R4 that's been built up some. So what does that mean for the torque converter lock up and VSS?

sounds like a cable type. With a cable style the transmission will automatically lock up the converter when in overdrive(based on stall). The electronic version uses the ecm program to lock up when in overdrive.

converter lock up/stall = direct connection from engine to trans

ECM controls TCC in a 91
See
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport...ine_wiring.gif

Thats a really small and easy to tune cam, so even if you do have to tune, it wont be hard.

As for the system you showed originally, Ive never been a big fan of throttle body type injection systems due to the fact that introducing live fuel into the intake makes life much more difficult. Thats not much better than what you have now with the TBI, and the autotune feature will be manditory as the fueling will go all over the place as once the fuel is in the manifold, it takes heat out of the induction charge when it vaporizes. Therefore, its impossible to know exactly how much air is entering the cylinders due to the fact that the temperature is an unknown.

If you convert over, going to full MPFI is the way to go. This is because you just have air in the manifold, so its much easier to determine the airmass in each cylinder, and provide accurate fueling. Im running a later model GM SFI system on my car that uses a vortec PCM and MAF for the fueling. While this system is complicated, it doesnt actually require tuning. Instead, you calibrate it by entering the MAF calibration table for the MAF in use, set the desired spark advance, and other desired parameters. After that, its able to hold the fueling to within +/- 5% under most operating conditions without any further intervention. Provided the sensors are in good shape, it will then essentially be "tuned" indefinitely. This is all possible because theres no live fuel in the intake.

If you want an easy self contained system, something like the stealth ram and a commander would be an option.

Another system that looks pretty good is the FAST XFI. It essentially comes with what I have now, which is the edelbrock victor-e intake, 4 bbl throttle body, and accel injectors. Additionally, it comes with a wire harness, control module, wideband O2, dist., and other associated components to install it. Youll need deep pockets for this one as its close to $4k, but overall it looks like a nice system. http://www.fuelairspark.com/

There are lots of other systems as well.

This is what I would do given the OPs requirement that smog be met. Connecting to the ECM on OBD-I stuff happens less and less now, but it won't pass if you're using an aftermarket ECM.

You're going to pay extra for TBI? instead of using the '746 (stock F-body TBI ECM) or using a '747 (insanely supported GM TBI ECM largely used in trucks)...

The Stealth Ram doesn't have any EGR provisions on the manifold thought right? I'm really not sure how much the EGR means for smog test though since I'm still running cats.

What other systems do you think will do what I'm looking for? I took a look at the Edelbrock Pro-Flo XT, but it looks like it's only for 86 and earlier, or Vortec heads only. I'm running an 89 block with standard 23* heads. I didn't think there was really that much of a difference between them and "86 and earlier."

What heads do you have? If you're running a 204/214 that's a very tame cam and probably part of the reason for the numbers you're making. I'd bump the intake duration @.05 15-20 degrees depending on the heads. Depending on the intake you're running now I also think that the TBI has more in it with more cam.

In regards to what intake to do, I like the idea of a single plane like a Vic Jr. with rails and a TBI adapter plate on top. Looks fairly stockish and a 454 TB would be about 48mm diameter I believe. Just make a block off plate for where the injector pod went.

They're 23* Trick Flow aluminum heads. The intake is an Edelbrock TBI that has had the bores pushed out to 2". And the throttle body is a modified one with 2" bores.

Definitely more cam before you do much else. I think you could do a converted single plane, an HSR etc. and not see a ton more power because the cam is choking you.

Did you say it falls on it's face at 4k?

Sorry, i just saw your mods in your sig now. Have you ever considered going with a carb? and maybe 373 gears.

Can't due to emissions. It won't get a pass until 2016.

Well with those heads and mods you have, i would get a bigger cam and a tune.

I have done some research in the past and as far as passing in AZ, you are required to have your A.I.R. system intact as well as your egr valve. The only system that I found that would control your egr valve when I was doing the research was the ACCEL DFI "Thruster" setup. Was supposed to be easily tuned using your laptop. My RS uses a F.A.S.T. setup and I have problems tuning it. (In fact EVERY TIME I have ever touched it, except to switch between custom tunes I have loaded onto my laptop, I have messed it up.) I like my F.A.S.T. XFI, but I am no programmer! I have heard that you can also use an LS1 ecm with a single plane F.I. setup...

FWIW, anesthes had a beautiful setup on his vette that I thought was perfect. He's got a few threads on here detailing the work. I think he was using a TPI harness with a 730 ecm... Just seemed really simple and affordable!

Not entirely true.... my 92 passed the sniffer without an EGR or working AIR system. But that tune is dialed in as close as professionals can get it with a Accel DFI setup. The only "working" emisssions equipment on the car is a 4 inch metallic core race cat sized for a 502. They didn't even look for the EGR and the AIR appeared to be there with the diverter valve and hoses hooked up.

And there is at least 1 3rd gen in town running non-emissions headers with no AIR hookups that passes every test.

Passing the test and being legal are 2 very different things. Your car and your friends car are technically not legal and should not pass since it is against federal law to remove any emissions equipment on any road driven car. What generally happens is that the guys doing the testing either don't care or feel they don't get paid enough to care and as long as they pass the sniff test they let it slide.

I won't argue with you on those points. Unfortunately, the way testing is done in AZ, allows OBDII cars to remove all emissions equipment and pollute as much as they want as long as the ECM isn't throwing any codes. They don't even put the cars through a sniffer test. At least I know mine still passes the sniffer which should be the only part of the test that matters. But, then again, my car doesn't see a lot of road driving either. Less than 1000 miles in the last 2 years.

I also don't take it to some of the extremes I've seen such as engine swaps just before the test to get a cleaner smaller engine in for the test and then swap it back for the rest of the year.

It's funny, it's just the opposite here in Ontario. You can have a check engine light on, have none of the readiness self tests done and as long as it passes the sniffer you're good to go. There is also a cutoff from 1987 and older that don't even take any emissions tests. They are stupidly strict on safety testing though, although again the car only gets tested when you put it on the road.

Any way you look at it, all the testing they do is weak at best and none of it does much good for the environment or safety, lol.

I was considering doing that with my RS. (The swap-back to get through the test.) I didnt have an EGR valve or A.I.R. system and so I failed the visual. I put a remote egr pipe in and made it look good (Wasnt hooked up, but looked like it was.) They still failed me due to the A.I.R. system being present. I know Alex's car dosent have the A.I.R. system and passed. I wouldve killed to be able to go to that station! I ended up getting collectors ins and away I go. BTW: I passed the tailpipe tests with flying colors! Go figure! :P

You could set up custom RPM/load points in most ECUs fairly easily I would assume. A Megasquirt would let you use EGR for sure even though it may be a bit of work to get it going.

I just installed the F.A.S.T. ez efi 30227-kit on my 87' and it really went smooth. And the kit included everything needed. The ki is good up to 600hp so it can grow with all of your future upgrades. I picked mine up@ www.dfperformance.com

Did you have a TBI before with an automatic? (EDIT: answered my own question by looking at your profile)

I'm really interested in this option because of the seperate computer, and since I already have a CD box, I can use that for the tach signal. The thing I'll need to find is a 4150 intake manifold with EGR provisions that will fit under the hood.

Still need to make sure the torque converter lockup will work.

Thanks for the help!

Hey , the Edelbrock performer will be low enough which I am using with the old cross fire Z28 hood which has even less clearance than the standard flat hoods. As far as converter lock up TCI sells a switch that you can install to solve that problem. And you can let it lock itself up or you can lock it up when you want with an overide switch.

Alright, so since I already have the CD ignition box, all I need is the TCI switch and a manifold? Did you have to do anything with the throttle linkage or TV cable?

And are their any SES lights on in the dash or is everything cool?

Starting to look forward to this and my coilover kit.

You can go "remote mount" on the egr like the V-6 cars (And c-4 vettes) do.

Go on . . .

SES light will be lit when you disconnect power to the original ecu. You will have to trace the wire that illuminates the check engine light if you want it out.

As far as throttle linkage your original bracket will most likely work.

Hey Gunny,

I've never seen you car finished; looks very good.

Here's my opinion:

If you're going to upgrade your efi, then you should go with a system that doesn't have many of the same inherent shortfalls of TBI.

In my opinion, the two biggest are wet vs. dry, and MAP vs MAF.

I'd want Sequential Multi Port Fuel Injection, and I'd want MAF.

As far as I know, there is only one aftermarket EFI that offers both, along with no tuning.

http://www.mass-floefi.com

A friend of mine put this on his 347 Cobra replica a few years back, and it is absolutely amazing.

OK, hold on Gunny, a couple of questions, first, cowboy. I know you're really disgusted with this thing, but before you go ripping everything out, would you consider taking one more run at what you have?

Observation #1: Regardless of the cam, with those heads and a 2" TB, I gotta believe you're at least 20 hp and 30 lbs-ft shy of where you ought to be with that engine. Maybe more.

Remember the GoodWrench Quest? They started with a stock, base model, 8.4:1 GoodWrench crate engine with the stock cam, stock, crappy (non-Vortec) heads, cast iron exhaust manifolds and a QuadraJet and made 239 hp and 324 lbs-ft. Now those are at the flywheel and yours are at the rear wheels, but you have an awesome set of heads and headers and a cam that, while definitely not taking advantage of the full breathing capability of those heads, is still better than the GoodWrench base cam, and ought to be making MASSIVE torque.

The simple addition of a set of headers to the GoodWrench Quest 350 netted them 256 hp and 379 lbs-ft. With only a pocket porting of the heads (they were still nowhere near what yours are) and no other changes, they made 282 hp.

http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/goodwr...20part%201.htm

My point is, I don't think the process of tuning is the problem here nearly as much as I suspect the problem is it is incompletely tuned and perhaps a few mismatched parts.

Question #1: Power runs aside, how does the car run and drive under normal conditions?

Question #2: You said you had an EBL put on and had it tuned by the man himself. Do you mean RBob?

Question #3: Are you still in the Corps? Are you in DC now?

I'm really sorry you're unhappy with the car after all the work and time you put into it. Don't get discouraged now, brother, I'm sure the dudes on here who actually know what they're talking about can help you sort this out. Remember, once you get this thing right, you won't have to tune it anymore unless you change a component.

Question #4: Do you have any leave/vacation coming up? if you do, maybe you could take it to Fast355 in Texas. I was going to do that with mine at one point, but decided to leave it alone and hop up my @#$%^&!!! KZ650 instead. He was willing to help and was reasonable on the price. You may end up with a TRS-80 for a PCM and a throttle body from a leaf blower, but I believe he'll get it right. I'm sure he'll jump in here to help.

you have two components already. Use TB as your TB. remove pod. retain sensors. Carb hat(like me) and add inlet with cold air. Place IAT in inlet ahead of hat.

I would ship the EBL back to RBob and add this (http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_PortMod.php). I see $25 !

I would add a Pro Products single plane EFI manifold with TBI adapter plate. Hopefully it is not too tall.

What did I forget?

[IMG][/IMG]

An air cleaner sucking hot air from the radiator?

True but it is only place I can run the inlet ducting. I even used 2.5 in id and hood still hit the tube. I tried to route to where the headlights fall into cavity. Prior to carb hat I used a standard 14 inch AC and IAT temps were extremely high. Now I see max of 100dF at IAT and on a cool day 70dF. TPI AC was an option but that means I swap out rad shroud for a 85 model year. I wont do that. An Fbody can utilize a cold air system. Spectre has the parts. I would suggest OP has the room.

Why would OP have the room if you don't?

I have a 84 Vetter OP has an F Body.

There are specific kits for cold air for F Body. Spectre has universal that will work or year specific. Plus an assortment of bends/couplers and diff diameter tubing. I am confident there is room for one or two cone filters in a decent spot..

So, I'm totally confused.

Gunny (OP) asked for recommendations on an efi setup that would require no tuning because he'd had bad experiences with it, even though he's purchased EBL and had the car tuned by "the man himself".

Your "solution" is to rip out everything that isn't part of his problem (intake, throttle body, etc.), not address one of the components that may be part of the problem (the camshaft, which may be too small to take advantage of the flow capabilities of those heads), and to send his EBL back to have further mods done to it so it will support 8 injectors and fire them sequentially so he can start the tuning process all over again from 0.

How does that even begin to either address the problem(s) he has, or to eliminate tuning, which is what he was asking for?

1. EFI with self tuning. He already has that with EBL. EBL does take some hands on but it a very good system as VE is self learning. Add a WB if you like and you have a very nice system. Port mod is batch fire.
2. Ease of install. Bolt on items. Some plumbing required.
3. Stock hood. Should be OK there.
4. Smog. That falls back on to the tune. Visual inspection? That may be an issue.

Gunny mentioned MiniRam. That too is a "go". Preferable over Stealth. I prefer a single plane.