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I think the 4 bolts were pretty well evenly tightened. I'm at a loss. I'm wondering if the heavy weight of that aero wing plays a part. Maybe I should go back to the 82-85 KITT Style, https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/198...-reproduction/
I looked on Hawks for weights of the reproduction aero and standard, but they don't give them. Think I'll email them.
I found a repro in the junkyard and snatched it up lol the mounting is super different from the factoy one.....
IMHO It feels just slightly heavier than the standard KITT style spoiler which is on my 89
The stock KITT spoiler is fiberglass apparently as I found while sanding it and kinda messed it up and had to use bondo to fix it LOL
they say t use standard Firebird hatch struts when you swap to the fiberglass wing reproduction so Im guessing the stock wing is heavy???
oh man the repro stock spoiler is almost 400.....get a used o> one from the junkyard for like $30 lol
The aero wings have come down. They were $600-$700 not long ago. I found something that said the fiberglass aero is about 1/4 the weight of the old plastic and that the original plastic was about 40 lbs. If that's accurate, then it's 30lbs less weight on the hatch. My aero is pretty much decayed so when I take the hatch off (whats left of it) I'm going to discard the aero and just go w/o a spoiler until I"m ready to do the body work. Although, I am thinking of having the fiberglass spray with bedliner material instead of painting. It would look a bit more like the vinyl wrapped of the 86/87 and not scratch up so easily. Thoughts?
What I don't know is if the orig aero wing holes on the deck lid would match up to a traditional spoiler (KITT).
The aero wings have come down. They were $600-$700 not long ago. I found something that said the fiberglass aero is about 1/4 the weight of the old plastic and that the original plastic was about 40 lbs. If that's accurate, then it's 30lbs less weight on the hatch. My aero is pretty much decayed so when I take the hatch off (whats left of it) I'm going to discard the aero and just go w/o a spoiler until I"m ready to do the body work. Although, I am thinking of having the fiberglass spray with bedliner material instead of painting. It would look a bit more like the vinyl wrapped of the 86/87 and not scratch up so easily. Thoughts?
What I don't know is if the orig aero wing holes on the deck lid would match up to a traditional spoiler (KITT).
The weight seems accurate...I was gonna say maybe 7 - 10 pounds. for the repro wing.
Depending on the bedliner...the spray on in a can ones get kinda dirty / hard to clean / fade....and polisihing won't be easy if at all possible i used them before BUT they are pretty durable.... the pro kine liner that seems to resist fading more is heavy / thick.
You could paint it semi flat fro ma can? That way maybe you can polish it when it fades..I did that, turns oput pretty good.
the holes between the two spoilers do NOT line up. There are issues with fitment on the repro aero wing from what i have read though. But with no glass, now would be the perfect tiome to decide to drill / weld up holes. Or grab a decklid / spoiler if you cna find one?
The weight seems accurate...I was gonna say maybe 7 - 10 pounds. for the repro wing.
Depending on the bedliner...the spray on in a can ones get kinda dirty / hard to clean / fade....and polisihing won't be easy if at all possible i used them before BUT they are pretty durable.... the pro kine liner that seems to resist fading more is heavy / thick.
You could paint it semi flat fro ma can? That way maybe you can polish it when it fades..I did that, turns oput pretty good.
the holes between the two spoilers do NOT line up. There are issues with fitment on the repro aero wing from what i have read though. But with no glass, now would be the perfect tiome to decide to drill / weld up holes. Or grab a decklid / spoiler if you cna find one?
I've seen a few Jeeps coated all over with spray on bedlliner stuff. They look pretty bad. How can the aero wing holes not line up, if it's supposed to be a repro of the original? I can see a difference between the two wing styles, aero and KITT.
I've seen a few Jeeps coated all over with spray on bedlliner stuff. They look pretty bad. How can the aero wing holes not line up, if it's supposed to be a repro of the original? I can see a difference between the two wing styles, aero and KITT.
Oh I thought you meant the aero and Kitt style haha
Still though, the holes could be off...there are fitment problems with the repro...lots of fitment / gap problems etc... The one I found appeared to have another set of holes drilled etc.. It should be at least close though.
Oh I thought you meant the aero and Kitt style haha
Still though, the holes could be off...there are fitment problems with the repro...lots of fitment / gap problems etc... The one I found appeared to have another set of holes drilled etc.. It should be at least close though.
Yea that is what I meant, KITT vs Aero. I am literally chasing my tail around in a circle!! I found a red 1991 Firebird hatch on a car in Ft Lauderdale. Still no way to get it home (won't fit in Jeep) but it has the standard KITT wing. That's the only one with a pic that's even remotely close to me. I have a bid request out on UShip. The new glass in NH is the solution, if I can get it to FL. The ironic thing is a very close friend lives about 10 min away from the part and has a GMC Envoy SUV that would haul it. But she can't take time off work. I'd pay her gas and hotel if needed. Her GMC also has 200,000 miles on it so I wouldn't want to risk it anyway.
Yea that is what I meant, KITT vs Aero. I am literally chasing my tail around in a circle!! I found a red 1991 Firebird hatch on a car in Ft Lauderdale. Still no way to get it home (won't fit in Jeep) but it has the standard KITT wing. That's the only one with a pic that's even remotely close to me. I have a bid request out on UShip. The new glass in NH is the solution, if I can get it to FL. The ironic thing is a very close friend lives about 10 min away from the part and has a GMC Envoy SUV that would haul it. But she can't take time off work. I'd pay her gas and hotel if needed. Her GMC also has 200,000 miles on it so I wouldn't want to risk it anyway.
I don't think it'll fit in an envoy?? The glass is almost wide as the Firebird which in itself is wide. and don't forget the wheel well arches in the envoy (just thinking of all things) Kinda think youd need to flatbed it tied down etc....
Keep in mind the 91 has the third brake light mounted at the top of the glass from the inside vs outside . on the decklid like 90 - 86 )86 is on the top outside)
I don't think it'll fit in an envoy?? The glass is almost wide as the Firebird which in itself is wide. and don't forget the wheel well arches in the envoy (just thinking of all things) Kinda think youd need to flatbed it tied down etc....
Keep in mind the 91 has the third brake light mounted at the top of the glass from the inside vs outside . on the decklid like 90 - 86 )86 is on the top outside)
Or a full sized pickup!!! Need about 50 x 55 inches. That's with the rear lid on. The car I saw on line for parts has the 3rd lite mounted under the spoiler. https://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/part...model=FIREBIRD If you end up on the home page select zip 33458 then search. It will default to their Palm Beach site. Scroll down and search Ft Lauderdale. It's there.
Or a full sized pickup!!! Need about 50 x 55 inches. That's with the rear lid on. The car I saw on line for parts has the 3rd lite mounted under the spoiler. https://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/part...model=FIREBIRD If you end up on the home page select zip 33458 then search. It will default to their Palm Beach site. Scroll down and search Ft Lauderdale. It's there.
It won't show me anything lol
BUT if its under the spoiler and indeed a 91..... then the hatch at some point has been swapped.
It coming in as showin a 1990 search so those would be under the spoiler though
Regardless though it should fit, but the ones wired with the light on top have different wiring etc...
That is def not a 91...I don't think its a 90 either. It looks like it has an older perhaps 87 steering wheel. Unless someone changed the bumpers, headlights, steering wheel, and even the seatbelt holders, i think thats an 87ish model...the wheels ae also the older i think 85??-87 non GTA rims... isaw this only ONCE and wish I got them here lol
not that its a problem since it has the hatch still.
For me personally Id buy that and drive that as is!
I see the rust on the A- and B pillar though...and i see a ton of rust on the lower rear quarter....
but Id drive that lol
Yea it's an 87, got my salvage cars mixed up. It's hard to tell how bad the rust is from lousy pics they posted. But its the only hatch within a few hrs drive of me. I'd like to swap out the 90 steering wheel and airbag crap for a standard 3 spoke like this car has.
i contacted Hawks to ask about their hinges and if there were any additional instructions / tips for installation. i included links to the couple threads on TGO about the glass shattering after installing them. i bought these hinges awhile ago but haven't installed the hatch on my project car yet. the last thing i want is the hatch breaking and scratching the fresh paint. Hawks reply was that the problems in the TGO threads was definitely installer error. the only instruction they gave was to tighten the body side bolts with tools but the hatch side bolts should be hand tight.
i contacted Hawks to ask about their hinges and if there were any additional instructions / tips for installation. i included links to the couple threads on TGO about the glass shattering after installing them. i bought these hinges awhile ago but haven't installed the hatch on my project car yet. the last thing i want is the hatch breaking and scratching the fresh paint. Hawks reply was that the problems in the TGO threads was definitely installer error. the only instruction they gave was to tighten the body side bolts with tools but the hatch side bolts should be hand tight.
Based on how easy it was to loosen the four bolts to clean up the broken glass I can say they were just hand tight, definitely not torqued down. Over tightening would not seem to be an issue.
Hand tight is meaningless. I use my hands to tighten everything. Need a torque spec.
There's a term called finger tight but I doubt that's what they mean.
Chilton book #28602 says 11 lbs torque at the hinge to glass location. I've read elsewhere this is too tight especially if replacing with the billet hinges (Hawks Motorsports site says "hand tight.")
Chilton book #28602 says 11 lbs torque at the hinge to glass location. I've read elsewhere this is too tight especially if replacing with the billet hinges (Hawks Motorsports site says "hand tight.")
lb-foot or lb-inch ?
lb is a weight, not a torque.
Here is a link to a copy of the '88 Firebird service manual. I haven't read it closely, but there appears to be a detailed writeup how to install the glass beginning on page 1748.
Here is a link to a copy of the '88 Firebird service manual. I haven't read it closely, but there appears to be a detailed writeup how to install the glass beginning on page 1748.
I appreciate the effort, but the files at the end of the links are nothing but spam, viruses, and click bait. I can't get to the file nor download it.
It pays to dig thru boxes. My TA came full of stuff. A 1990 service manual (falling apart) included. It has a detailed section on the back hatch but doesn't really tell me more than the Chilton. But of course, service manuals have always been very poorly written and horribly illustrated!
I still think polycarbonate might be the solution. It will flex, but never shatter. It's tougher than hurricane impact glass. The problems with exposure to the elements are a problem, and supposedly Optic Armor says you can't actually open/close the hatch once installed. I can only think that has something to do with flexing/bowing at the hinge to glass location. It seems there is a big problem with exploding hatches and there's another thread on here about that.
...supposedly Optic Armor says you can't actually open/close the hatch once installed.
I still find that difficult to believe.
At 1/4" thick, the plastic should have no problem taking whatever stress there is. This is providing the properly spec'd lift struts are installed. You could even go so far as to use it without struts I would think.
Maybe there's an issue with how the deck lid gets attached the it can't be used in a normal sense because of that?
I've just tossed out a request for information from Optic Armor. I'll post back with what they have to say.
I hope they respond.
I still find that difficult to believe.
At 1/4" thick, the plastic should have no problem taking whatever stress there is. This is providing the properly spec'd lift struts are installed. You could even go so far as to use it without struts I would think.
Maybe there's an issue with how the deck lid gets attached the it can't be used in a normal sense because of that?
I've just tossed out a request for information from Optic Armor. I'll post back with what they have to say.
I hope they respond.
I also reached back out to Optic Armor. It will be interesting to see if we get the same answer!!!
OK. This is the disassembled metal rear deck lid. This is the plastic cover that goes under the lid, and under it another metal piece then the glass. What the heck is that rusty bracket? It appears to be riveted to the lid. Any sources of new parts? Also my aero spoiler is totally rotted. The metal bands that go around the glass are good, but the clips that hold the wing to them are rusted out too. Source for parts?
Last edited by sklearman; 07-24-2021 at 04:47 PM.
Reason: Part correction
I also reached back out to Optic Armor. It will be interesting to see if we get the same answer!!!
I heard back from Optic Armor.
From Jim Dunham:
Thanks for your interest in our products. If you mount the window to the factory frame it can still be functional. Let me know if you have any more questions. Thanks again!
So, there you go. Here's hoping someone here gives it a go.
The windows are designed as a drop-in, cut to factory glass dimensions and formed to factory curvature. If they want to mount them to the frame and make them functional, they will have to drill the hinge holes which is very simple to do. Also you will want to swap out your gas struts since you will be removing around 50 pounds from the hatch.
The windows are designed as a drop-in, cut to factory glass dimensions and formed to factory curvature. If they want to mount them to the frame and make them functional, they will have to drill the hinge holes which is very simple to do. Also you will want to swap out your gas struts since you will be removing around 50 pounds from the hatch.
I am hearing there are a couple of different struts, depending on whether you have the aero wing or the traditional, much lighter, 1982 style wing. That makes sense. My aero wing is that heavy original rubber and I won't be putting it back on the car (it's decayed) but also my struts were fairly slow at lifting the hatch as it was. If you scroll up you'll see a pic of a rusty piece of metal, seemingly riveted to the plastic component that mounts under the metal lid. Now, what idiot riveted it on? How am I supposed to take it off, clean up with POR 15, and put it back on????
I am still waiting to hear back from Optic Armor, but it was also the weekend. All 8 holes (the four in the rear lid area included) would have to be perfectly drilled which might be an issue. I doubt my insurance will go for the Optic Armor though, you know insurance companies even the good ones!
At one time, I was using the gas strut catalogue and determining my own spec for hood struts as I went to fibreglass. But it's been so long, I can't even recall the manufacturer but that's easily determined with a look for branding on the strut (my heap is in storage so I can't check). IIRC, they are spec'd by length, travel, lifting capacity and attachment methods.
As for the drilling, polycarbonate is simple enough to drill but some kind of template would be needed. Most likely patterned after the original glass. A little difficult to do though when then original is in a million pieces!
Not sure of the metal bracketry. I don't recall what the underside of my hatch looks like.
At one time, I was using the gas strut catalogue and determining my own spec for hood struts as I went to fibreglass. But it's been so long, I can't even recall the manufacturer but that's easily determined with a look for branding on the strut (my heap is in storage so I can't check). IIRC, they are spec'd by length, travel, lifting capacity and attachment methods.
As for the drilling, polycarbonate is simple enough to drill but some kind of template would be needed. Most likely patterned after the original glass. A little difficult to do though when then original is in a million pieces!
Not sure of the metal bracketry. I don't recall what the underside of my hatch looks like.
Yes, I don't understand why a mfr wouldn't template-drill the holes at the factory. That could be a big problem for the body shop because it has to be done perfect, on the first try!
Judging by the vibe I get from Optic Armor's e-mail, I think their market is primarily the racer. They describe the application as being a drop in. As such, I can see it being pinned down with a handful of Dzus fasteners rather than the functional approach.
Keep in mind, that the metal frame is key to making the polycarbonate hatch work and I think it would make good sense to determine the OEM glass thickness and select the plastic hatch to suit. I think their thickest is 1/4" which sounds about right for the frame.
Judging by the vibe I get from Optic Armor's e-mail, I think their market is primarily the racer. They describe the application as being a drop in. As such, I can see it being pinned down with a handful of Dzus fasteners rather than the functional approach.
Keep in mind, that the metal frame is key to making the polycarbonate hatch work and I think it would make good sense to determine the OEM glass thickness and select the plastic hatch to suit. I think their thickest is 1/4" which sounds about right for the frame.
Yes, I measured a section of broken glass and it was 1/4". Makes sense given the weight of the glass. Optic Armor is primarily geared towards the racing industry but last time I checked Gen III F bodies weren't be used as race cars!! Why market a product for the regular market if its not suited for it?
I think you will find plenty of 3rd gens at the race track. More now than ever. I'm one of them. And any racer knows that being lighter almost always equates to being faster. Except the guys who race on salt. Then weight is their friend.
I think you will find plenty of 3rd gens at the race track. More now than ever. I'm one of them. And any racer knows that being lighter almost always equates to being faster. Except the guys who race on salt. Then weight is their friend.
LOL tells you how much I don't know about racing! I would think all glass on any race car would be polycarbonate though for safety. The only racing I've seen is Outlaw and Midget class (if I remember the names right). Dirt track. Very dusty. Fun to watch though.
OK. This is the disassembled metal rear deck lid. This is the plastic cover that goes under the lid, and under it another metal piece then the glass. What the heck is that rusty bracket? It appears to be riveted to the lid. Any sources of new parts? Also my aero spoiler is totally rotted. The metal bands that go around the glass are good, but the clips that hold the wing to them are rusted out too. Source for parts?
Which metal clips that hold the wing? Pics?
The aftermarket spoilers atttach at the decklid and use 2 really small (I dunno how they actually do anything) clips that keep the wing attached to the hatch.
The aftermarket spoilers atttach at the decklid and use 2 really small (I dunno how they actually do anything) clips that keep the wing attached to the hatch.
The Aero Wing clips. Mine totally disintegrated although my wing is rotted out and I don't think I'm putting it back on. Hawks sells a fiberglass replacement that comes with clips. I am worried about the edge banding that screws into the rear lid though. If I end up with a hatch off a salvage car it might even have the traditional 1982/KITT spoiler which not only looks better but is far lighter than the wing.
The pic above is the side of the plastic bottom piece that goes under the rear lid. Between it and the glass itself is another large metal retaining bracket, but that piece is not rusted. This little piece is which is easy to fix but it appears to be riveted on. You can see the little "white" circles near the top and bottom. It would only make sense to POR 15 both sides so rust doesn't happen again.
The Aero Wing clips. Mine totally disintegrated although my wing is rotted out and I don't think I'm putting it back on. Hawks sells a fiberglass replacement that comes with clips. I am worried about the edge banding that screws into the rear lid though. If I end up with a hatch off a salvage car it might even have the traditional 1982/KITT spoiler which not only looks better but is far lighter than the wing.
The pic above is the side of the plastic bottom piece that goes under the rear lid. Between it and the glass itself is another large metal retaining bracket, but that piece is not rusted. This little piece is which is easy to fix but it appears to be riveted on. You can see the little "white" circles near the top and bottom. It would only make sense to POR 15 both sides so rust doesn't happen again.
"The Aero Wing clips"
If you mean the slot clips on the hatch glass trim, or the clips on the wing itself, I don't think ANY repro wing uses those.
I used to not like the wing, but now I really like it lol
the KITT style is great too, but ionly like it on the early non ground effects T/A and base Firebirds
If you mean the slot clips on the hatch glass trim, or the clips on the wing itself, I don't think ANY repro wing uses those.
I used to not like the wing, but now I really like it lol
the KITT style is great too, but ionly like it on the early non ground effects T/A and base Firebirds
Yes, I am referring to the slot clips I think. My hatch literally came apart, probably all the fasteners were rusted out so that's going to be an issue. If I keep the same deck lid and parts, I'll get the Hawks fiberglass aero wing. It comes with the clips to hold it to the sides of the glass. I've seen a few pics of TAs with the ground effects that look good with a KITT wing too, so either way.
These are on the plastic lower section of the rear deck. If you opened the hatch, the clean side is what you would see. The reverse side, which helps sandwich the glass, has this long metal bracket. Obviously, this rust in unsat and I want to POR 15 it. But, it attaches with some sort of tiny rivet. Once removed, I'll need some other means to secure the metal piece to the plastic. Why can't GM keep it simple??
thats on the plastic trim that covers the bottom of the decklid correct?
I think that is just for the rolling cargo cover. the little notches on the cover sit in those openings.
My 89 has that...the 87 doesn't have that or the cargo cover. prolly just to give the plastics more support to pull the cover out.
That's likely it...I do have the cargo cover. But the rust has to go, it's unsat. It's just a question of how to resecure the metal piece to the plastic. Epoxy? Very tiny bolts?
I don't think that piece wil likely rust to the point of falling apart though given that its also on the inside of the car....kinda like the under dash brackets etc...
IMO I'd coat the back with POR and leave it.
You might do more harm removing it from the plastics and trying to reattach it by making the hole too big etc... its possible nuts on the other side will interfere with the palstic sitting nicely..or contact the glass??
I don't think that piece wil likely rust to the point of falling apart though given that its also on the inside of the car....kinda like the under dash brackets etc...
IMO I'd coat the back with POR and leave it.
You might do more harm removing it from the plastics and trying to reattach it by making the hole too big etc... its possible nuts on the other side will interfere with the palstic sitting nicely..or contact the glass??
.02
Take a look at how this guy repaired a Yamaha tach... he had to deal with the same sort of thing. Maybe?
Got the cargo cover bracket cleaned up (turns out, I still had my old rivet tool!). POR 15 tomorrow, and paint, then reinstall. I am wondering if anyone on here has ever shipped via UShip (there's a new glass in NH I would like to get) or a company called Toro Logistics Group (TLG) I think out of CA. They're a broker also, not an actual shipper, and their reviews are bad. https://www.uship.com/service-provid...lg-freight-usa
07-23-2021, 03:01 PM
