ABS Install???
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Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
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I think I see where you might be a little off with that.... The "tuning" of the ABS system to the vehicle it is in is a factor in the operation of the ABS but not in how it is triggered. The ABS still watches for wheel speeds that don't jive and goes from there... Where the changes in vehicle size/weight/etc. or even pad torque/caliper design/etc. come into play is how effective the ABS system is at venting the proper amount of pressure from the locking circuit and how to re-apply pedal pressure to the circuit in the proper amount so as to re-assume maximum braking performance without re-locking the given circuit.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Originally posted by Matt87GTA
I think I see where you might be a little off with that.... The "tuning" of the ABS system to the vehicle it is in is a factor in the operation of the ABS but not in how it is triggered. The ABS still watches for wheel speeds that don't jive and goes from there... Where the changes in vehicle size/weight/etc. or even pad torque/caliper design/etc. come into play is how effective the ABS system is at venting the proper amount of pressure from the locking circuit and how to re-apply pedal pressure to the circuit in the proper amount so as to re-assume maximum braking performance without re-locking the given circuit.
I think I see where you might be a little off with that.... The "tuning" of the ABS system to the vehicle it is in is a factor in the operation of the ABS but not in how it is triggered. The ABS still watches for wheel speeds that don't jive and goes from there... Where the changes in vehicle size/weight/etc. or even pad torque/caliper design/etc. come into play is how effective the ABS system is at venting the proper amount of pressure from the locking circuit and how to re-apply pedal pressure to the circuit in the proper amount so as to re-assume maximum braking performance without re-locking the given circuit.
thanks for replying... i read his thing 4 times and just went huh?!
I don't understand this:: if you put on something as small as just better pads than stock (bendix TT for ex), you can go from 60 - 0 faster, right?? Maybe even decel at 13 mph/s from 60 mph. ABS will be triggered sooner....and be active throughout your braking.
It must not matter, though, . As long as you are not in a skid, ABS has no effect on how quickly you stop. It just prevents yoour tire from locking up. Right??
when you say "It just prevents yoour tire from locking up." its like saying "your engine burns gas to make the car go." thats correct, but theres more too it then that... and like cars, you'll find the more you learn about it, the less you know. im still learning a ton about it.. this isnt the easiest subject to be learning technical stuff about.. unlike engines, people arnt as willing to just hand out info.
if you split the actions of what its doing into parts, like that example did, you see that it didnt really effect the triggering, it just effected the reaction..
i expect the triggering to be extremely close between the 3rd and 4th gens simply because they are almost the same car in every form that matters to this system..
by using their actual brakes and lines, im going to be within their defined range of the existing programming.
so i expect this to work out... if it does, i'll do back to back Gtech tests with ABS on/off and with SS lines and such... im as info hungery as everyone else here, id be doing more testing if i had the funds...
if the "close to stock" ABS function doesnt work out though, i have to either start cracking the system, or ive wasted alot of time.... im trying to boot up a "known good" setup, and then mod it from there and see the results.
to be honest, i want 13" rotors and agressive pads... SS lines, ect... but if i cant get them to work with ABS, on the street they arnt going to be as effective as the stock 4thgen setup.. (yes thats a arguable statement, i know, lets not get into it)
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
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Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
I've been thinking about this from a different angle and have changed my mind about a few things. Thanks by the way for reading through my long posts. But hey...at least its interesting to discuss.
First of all (MATT87GTA),, I'm not sure how much vehicle size/weight plays into this. On a frictionless surface (ice is closest) vehicle weight plays no role in friction. Which is why 18-wheelers slide all over the place too. What makes the biggest difference in braking is how much tire is on contact with the surface....and the rotor size and pad area. I'm really not sure those factors play into ABS functioning that much. I mean....we know that ABS is triggered by a rapid deceleration......what causes it to "let go" of a tire is when ABS reduces pressure long enough to see an acceleration in that tire. That means its not slipping. Then back and forth and back and forth.
MRDUDE:: I see your point and agree.
I have been wrestling with how someone could define a rapid deceleration which is big enough to trigger ABS. I mean, how could you know? How fast do you have to be decelerating to lock up??
Well....I thought about this differently. It has to be a number that is impossible for any car to stop at right?? Lets say that you are braking at 60mph and lock up. 1 second before you lock up...whats happening. 1 second before you are going 60 MPH. 1 second later you are going 0 MPH. The same is true 1 second before locking up at 50, 40, 30, 10 (until you reach a speed at which going from your previous speed to 0 mph in 1 second is reasonable).
This relationship would be true at 1 second before any car locks up right??? You are going speed X, 1 second later your tire is going speed 0 b/c its locked up and not moving.
So lets pretend that deceleration is linear. Graph your velocity vs time. If you are going from 60 mph to 0 in 1 second, then any 2 point on that line would demonstrate the same slope (i.e deceleration). So for the entire second before your tire completely locks, its decelerating at 60 mph/s. ABS is collecting data at every 1/10 of a second and knows that you are decelerating at 60 mph/s. ABS knows this is an impossible deceleration......that you cannot possible stop your car completely in 1 sec from 60 mph and BOOM pressure is reduced to that wheel.
This holds true for every speed (except maybe 2 mph? I don't know) when you can come to a complete stop in 1 sec.
For this reason....bigger brakes, better pads, etc.. have no effect on how ABS works. Yes...they'll make your car stop faster....But you still will not be able to stop from 60 (or 50, or 40, or 30 and on and on) to 0 in 1 sec.
Stainless braided lines give you more pressure at the caliper/pad but they don't effect ABS because ABS will reduce pressure until it sees an acceleration and increase pressure until a deceleration. If anything, those upgrades will give you a more efficient ABS.....not confuse it.
If you are not convinced:: ABS prevents your tire from locking up, its knows you are about to lock up because EVERY tire does the same thing before it locks up. It goes from prev speed (x) to a speed of zero in a VERY short time (1 sec or less). ABS knows its impossible for any car to stop in this way.
So...be it S10, or LS1...It will still work just as any ABS would no matter what car you have the brain in. Only diff being that LS1 is prob reads data faster and the valves work more efficiently.
NOw...whether it "learns" or not I don't know. The racelogic traction control system requires that you drive a few blocks so that it can learn before you actually use it. Do they have to "prime" ABS brains like this?? I was hoping maybe that if you bought one brand new from the dealership, it might contain instructions if this needs to be done.
Anyway....let me know what ya'll think.
First of all (MATT87GTA),, I'm not sure how much vehicle size/weight plays into this. On a frictionless surface (ice is closest) vehicle weight plays no role in friction. Which is why 18-wheelers slide all over the place too. What makes the biggest difference in braking is how much tire is on contact with the surface....and the rotor size and pad area. I'm really not sure those factors play into ABS functioning that much. I mean....we know that ABS is triggered by a rapid deceleration......what causes it to "let go" of a tire is when ABS reduces pressure long enough to see an acceleration in that tire. That means its not slipping. Then back and forth and back and forth.
MRDUDE:: I see your point and agree.
I have been wrestling with how someone could define a rapid deceleration which is big enough to trigger ABS. I mean, how could you know? How fast do you have to be decelerating to lock up??
Well....I thought about this differently. It has to be a number that is impossible for any car to stop at right?? Lets say that you are braking at 60mph and lock up. 1 second before you lock up...whats happening. 1 second before you are going 60 MPH. 1 second later you are going 0 MPH. The same is true 1 second before locking up at 50, 40, 30, 10 (until you reach a speed at which going from your previous speed to 0 mph in 1 second is reasonable).
This relationship would be true at 1 second before any car locks up right??? You are going speed X, 1 second later your tire is going speed 0 b/c its locked up and not moving.
So lets pretend that deceleration is linear. Graph your velocity vs time. If you are going from 60 mph to 0 in 1 second, then any 2 point on that line would demonstrate the same slope (i.e deceleration). So for the entire second before your tire completely locks, its decelerating at 60 mph/s. ABS is collecting data at every 1/10 of a second and knows that you are decelerating at 60 mph/s. ABS knows this is an impossible deceleration......that you cannot possible stop your car completely in 1 sec from 60 mph and BOOM pressure is reduced to that wheel.
This holds true for every speed (except maybe 2 mph? I don't know) when you can come to a complete stop in 1 sec.
For this reason....bigger brakes, better pads, etc.. have no effect on how ABS works. Yes...they'll make your car stop faster....But you still will not be able to stop from 60 (or 50, or 40, or 30 and on and on) to 0 in 1 sec.
Stainless braided lines give you more pressure at the caliper/pad but they don't effect ABS because ABS will reduce pressure until it sees an acceleration and increase pressure until a deceleration. If anything, those upgrades will give you a more efficient ABS.....not confuse it.
If you are not convinced:: ABS prevents your tire from locking up, its knows you are about to lock up because EVERY tire does the same thing before it locks up. It goes from prev speed (x) to a speed of zero in a VERY short time (1 sec or less). ABS knows its impossible for any car to stop in this way.
So...be it S10, or LS1...It will still work just as any ABS would no matter what car you have the brain in. Only diff being that LS1 is prob reads data faster and the valves work more efficiently.
NOw...whether it "learns" or not I don't know. The racelogic traction control system requires that you drive a few blocks so that it can learn before you actually use it. Do they have to "prime" ABS brains like this?? I was hoping maybe that if you bought one brand new from the dealership, it might contain instructions if this needs to be done.
Anyway....let me know what ya'll think.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
i thought you had it for a second... but you have a major misconception still..
the lines and pads and such DO have a large effect....
now up till here you're fine.. but heres the kicker question.
HOW MUCH PRESSURE should be taken out?
a blurb from that same page:
do you understand that part? the hoses, pads, rotors and everythign DOES make a diff.
the lines and pads and such DO have a large effect....
Originally posted by Matthew91-Z28
.... ABS knows this is an impossible deceleration......that you cannot possible stop your car completely in 1 sec from 60 mph and BOOM pressure is reduced to that wheel.
.... ABS knows this is an impossible deceleration......that you cannot possible stop your car completely in 1 sec from 60 mph and BOOM pressure is reduced to that wheel.
HOW MUCH PRESSURE should be taken out?
a blurb from that same page:
Resisting the temptation to run in the fast lane at triple-digit speeds, you once again find yourself behind the spring water truck at 75 MPH. Barrels fly and you again lay on the brakes, but with the increased confidence of your new hardware to slow you down in time. Plus, you now know how the ABS works, so you lay into the pedal, confident that you will have both deceleration and steerability. It couldn't get any better.
Like scenario 1, after the initial 50, 100, and 150 milliseconds the ABS takes snapshots of the wheel speed information and registers 0.91g's, 1.36g's, and 4.1g's on the left front wheel. Again the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot possibly be decelerating at 4.1g's. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the 'real' vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH - a 3.5 MPH error. So far, so good - just like last time.
Here's where things start to get interesting, though. ABS enters "isolation mode" and shuts off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper, isolating the driver from applying more pressure. Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," and once again calculates that 10ms are required to the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to reaccelerate back up to the vehicle's actual speed - 71.5 MPH in this case. Unfortunately, this calculation was based on the standard vehicle's pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/rotor assembly. Let's talk about this briefly while the barrels roll in closer.
Pressure-Torque And Pressure-Volume Relationships
When a braking system is designed and installed, the components are chosen to provide a certain deceleration level for a certain amount of force applied by the driver to the brake pedal. While the overall relationship is critical, there are many ways to achieve the same end…but fundamentally the parts are chosen to work together as a system.
One of the most important relationships for the ABS engineer is the pressure-torque (P-T) relationship of the caliper/pad/rotor assembly. In so many words, for a given brake fluid pressure, X, the caliper/pad/rotor assembly will build up a certain amount of torque, Y. For the sake of argument, let's assume that adding 100 PSI of brake pressure to the stock caliper in our example vehicle generates 100 ft-lb. of torque.
Another important relationship is the pressure-volume (P-V) characteristic of the system. This relationship defines the swelling or expansion of the brake system for a given increase in pressure. Let's also say that our stock vehicle brake system 'swells' 1cc for every 100 PSI.
Unfortunately, there are several big-brake systems available today which pay no regard to the original P-T or P-V relationships of the original vehicle…and in fact many make it a point to affect drastic changes in these relationships in order to give the consumer that feeling of 'increased bite.' While the upside is certainly a firmer pedal and higher partial-braking deceleration for the same pedal force, the trade-off can be ABS confusion.
Back To The Barrels
So, back to our example - the ABS has just calculated that a 10ms pressure reduction pulse was necessary to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration (or thereabouts)…but the new system with its decreased P-V characteristics (increased stiffness!) releases twice as much pressure as the stock system in the same 10ms window (the equivalent of a 20ms pulse with the stock system)! Of course, the increased P-T characteristics (bigger rotor! bigger pistons!) don't help either, as now three to four times as much torque has been removed from the wheel as with the stock system, leaving only enough torque to decelerate the wheel at, say, 0.3g. In ABS land this is known as a 'decel hole' and feels just like you momentarily took your foot off the brake pedal.
Now, given that huge pressure decrease, the ABS quickly enters "increase mode," trying to correct and build the pressure back up near the vehicle's maximum sustainable brake force. This takes time and time equals lost stopping distance.
The ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve and determines that four pulses of 5ms each are necessary, just like before. Because of the new P-T and P-V characteristics however, after only two pulses the wheel is again being forced into slip, leaving the ABS scratching its head and wondering what's going on. Not expecting wheel slip so soon, the ABS quickly releases pressure in an attempt to recover, but the damage has already been done.
The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal, or until the car has come to a stop…but this time the ABS is always one step behind. In some cases the ABS is robust to modest changes in the base brake system, but in extreme cases there can be a significant negative impact to the vehicle's steerability (increased front wheel slip due to poor control) and a measurable increase in stopping distance (multiple 'make up' decrease pulses).
Like scenario 1, after the initial 50, 100, and 150 milliseconds the ABS takes snapshots of the wheel speed information and registers 0.91g's, 1.36g's, and 4.1g's on the left front wheel. Again the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot possibly be decelerating at 4.1g's. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the 'real' vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH - a 3.5 MPH error. So far, so good - just like last time.
Here's where things start to get interesting, though. ABS enters "isolation mode" and shuts off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper, isolating the driver from applying more pressure. Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," and once again calculates that 10ms are required to the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to reaccelerate back up to the vehicle's actual speed - 71.5 MPH in this case. Unfortunately, this calculation was based on the standard vehicle's pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/rotor assembly. Let's talk about this briefly while the barrels roll in closer.
Pressure-Torque And Pressure-Volume Relationships
When a braking system is designed and installed, the components are chosen to provide a certain deceleration level for a certain amount of force applied by the driver to the brake pedal. While the overall relationship is critical, there are many ways to achieve the same end…but fundamentally the parts are chosen to work together as a system.
One of the most important relationships for the ABS engineer is the pressure-torque (P-T) relationship of the caliper/pad/rotor assembly. In so many words, for a given brake fluid pressure, X, the caliper/pad/rotor assembly will build up a certain amount of torque, Y. For the sake of argument, let's assume that adding 100 PSI of brake pressure to the stock caliper in our example vehicle generates 100 ft-lb. of torque.
Another important relationship is the pressure-volume (P-V) characteristic of the system. This relationship defines the swelling or expansion of the brake system for a given increase in pressure. Let's also say that our stock vehicle brake system 'swells' 1cc for every 100 PSI.
Unfortunately, there are several big-brake systems available today which pay no regard to the original P-T or P-V relationships of the original vehicle…and in fact many make it a point to affect drastic changes in these relationships in order to give the consumer that feeling of 'increased bite.' While the upside is certainly a firmer pedal and higher partial-braking deceleration for the same pedal force, the trade-off can be ABS confusion.
Back To The Barrels
So, back to our example - the ABS has just calculated that a 10ms pressure reduction pulse was necessary to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration (or thereabouts)…but the new system with its decreased P-V characteristics (increased stiffness!) releases twice as much pressure as the stock system in the same 10ms window (the equivalent of a 20ms pulse with the stock system)! Of course, the increased P-T characteristics (bigger rotor! bigger pistons!) don't help either, as now three to four times as much torque has been removed from the wheel as with the stock system, leaving only enough torque to decelerate the wheel at, say, 0.3g. In ABS land this is known as a 'decel hole' and feels just like you momentarily took your foot off the brake pedal.
Now, given that huge pressure decrease, the ABS quickly enters "increase mode," trying to correct and build the pressure back up near the vehicle's maximum sustainable brake force. This takes time and time equals lost stopping distance.
The ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve and determines that four pulses of 5ms each are necessary, just like before. Because of the new P-T and P-V characteristics however, after only two pulses the wheel is again being forced into slip, leaving the ABS scratching its head and wondering what's going on. Not expecting wheel slip so soon, the ABS quickly releases pressure in an attempt to recover, but the damage has already been done.
The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal, or until the car has come to a stop…but this time the ABS is always one step behind. In some cases the ABS is robust to modest changes in the base brake system, but in extreme cases there can be a significant negative impact to the vehicle's steerability (increased front wheel slip due to poor control) and a measurable increase in stopping distance (multiple 'make up' decrease pulses).
do you understand that part? the hoses, pads, rotors and everythign DOES make a diff.
Last edited by MrDude_1; Dec 16, 2003 at 01:34 PM.
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Originally posted by Matthew91-Z28
NOw...whether it "learns" or not I don't know. The racelogic traction control system requires that you drive a few blocks so that it can learn before you actually use it. Do they have to "prime" ABS brains like this?? I was hoping maybe that if you bought one brand new from the dealership, it might contain instructions if this needs to be done.
NOw...whether it "learns" or not I don't know. The racelogic traction control system requires that you drive a few blocks so that it can learn before you actually use it. Do they have to "prime" ABS brains like this?? I was hoping maybe that if you bought one brand new from the dealership, it might contain instructions if this needs to be done.
its like the chip in a ECM... its programmed for that car.. and while the ECM may be the same between a sunfire and a camaro, the settings on that chip are very diffrent.
read what i posted just before this reply and you'll get a idea of what i mean by "learn"....
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
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Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
btw, i hope im not coming off as a know it all...... i just know what ive found from researching the past few months on the subject...
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Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
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Hey you're not coming off as anything but a good source of feedback. We've both been looking into this quite a bit. I am relieved that I have a good back board to bounce things off of.
I know that the valves have 3 positions in the ABS valve; open, hold, or closed. And this is an informative article by Stoptech...but they do have an agenda, which is to sell their brake products vs their competitors. So we have to consider that when reading their info.
From the article I read in howstuffworks....which isn't that detailed, I don't think there is a defined amount of fluid removed from the line and sent to the dump valve. I think that pressure is removed UNTIL the ABS detects acceleration in that wheel based on the pulses per unit time it recieves. Then it lets go until another rapid decel...and so on.
Now...I'm not going to try and debunk what Stoptech says because I really don't know. But consider this; they say that they pay attention to P-V and P-T characteristics when designing their brake upgrade components. But...how are their ss lines any different from earls? Both are ss lines of the same length for a given application and dame diameter, right? And how are their 13 rotors and 2 piston calipers diff from, say, Baer? They are both same dia rotor and the piston area is prob very similar as well as design.
If you bought stoptechs's bigger brakes, would you not have more braking torque at the same amount of pressure? And isn't the whole point of ss lines to decrease hose flex and thus increase line pressure when braking?
I'm not arguing their product...I'm just thinking that any given ABS unit has more flexibility in P-V and P-T relationships than Stoptech is wishing you to believe [so you'd feel safer buying their stuff].
It would be good to know if ABS stopped a tire from locking by either a.) removing a defined amount of fluid, or b.) removing fluid until a an acceleration was seen.
Hey...by the way...did that guy who posted those hubs a while back ever count those teeth? Did you pursue it? I didn't although I know we should have. We need to get him to remove those sensor covers and look at the inside.
And Matt87GTA....I don't have access to alldata.com. Just for s*its and grins, would you post a schematic for a 93 S10 buffer, and of a 90-92 camaro VSS?
now up till here you're fine.. but heres the kicker question. How much should pressure should be taken out?
I know that the valves have 3 positions in the ABS valve; open, hold, or closed. And this is an informative article by Stoptech...but they do have an agenda, which is to sell their brake products vs their competitors. So we have to consider that when reading their info.
From the article I read in howstuffworks....which isn't that detailed, I don't think there is a defined amount of fluid removed from the line and sent to the dump valve. I think that pressure is removed UNTIL the ABS detects acceleration in that wheel based on the pulses per unit time it recieves. Then it lets go until another rapid decel...and so on.
Now...I'm not going to try and debunk what Stoptech says because I really don't know. But consider this; they say that they pay attention to P-V and P-T characteristics when designing their brake upgrade components. But...how are their ss lines any different from earls? Both are ss lines of the same length for a given application and dame diameter, right? And how are their 13 rotors and 2 piston calipers diff from, say, Baer? They are both same dia rotor and the piston area is prob very similar as well as design.
If you bought stoptechs's bigger brakes, would you not have more braking torque at the same amount of pressure? And isn't the whole point of ss lines to decrease hose flex and thus increase line pressure when braking?
I'm not arguing their product...I'm just thinking that any given ABS unit has more flexibility in P-V and P-T relationships than Stoptech is wishing you to believe [so you'd feel safer buying their stuff].
It would be good to know if ABS stopped a tire from locking by either a.) removing a defined amount of fluid, or b.) removing fluid until a an acceleration was seen.
Hey...by the way...did that guy who posted those hubs a while back ever count those teeth? Did you pursue it? I didn't although I know we should have. We need to get him to remove those sensor covers and look at the inside.
And Matt87GTA....I don't have access to alldata.com. Just for s*its and grins, would you post a schematic for a 93 S10 buffer, and of a 90-92 camaro VSS?
Supreme Member
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Originally posted by Matthew91-Z28
It would be good to know if ABS stopped a tire from locking by either a.) removing a defined amount of fluid, or b.) removing fluid until a an acceleration was seen.
Hey...by the way...did that guy who posted those hubs a while back ever count those teeth? Did you pursue it? I didn't although I know we should have. We need to get him to remove those sensor covers and look at the inside.
And Matt87GTA....I don't have access to alldata.com. Just for s*its and grins, would you post a schematic for a 93 S10 buffer, and of a 90-92 camaro VSS?
It would be good to know if ABS stopped a tire from locking by either a.) removing a defined amount of fluid, or b.) removing fluid until a an acceleration was seen.
Hey...by the way...did that guy who posted those hubs a while back ever count those teeth? Did you pursue it? I didn't although I know we should have. We need to get him to remove those sensor covers and look at the inside.
And Matt87GTA....I don't have access to alldata.com. Just for s*its and grins, would you post a schematic for a 93 S10 buffer, and of a 90-92 camaro VSS?
what GMs ABS does (i donno about others, theres more then one way to skin a cat):
the valve has a "jet" or restriction of a known amount... so it knows how fast fluid will dump out and the pressure, ect...
it calculates how long it should hold the valve open... it then holds it for that time and closes it.
remember this is all happening very fast. it doesnt have time to wait and see the speed of the wheel and if it did too much or too little while the valves open... it calulates goes and sees the result.
so what ends up happening is it letts off too much pressure and has to reapply it.
in anycase, im at the point where i just need to try it and see..
what i need:
- the wireing diagrams for a 98-2002 Fbody ABS unit...
- to know the number of "teeth" or triggers in the stock 4thgen hub
- to know if the S10 rotor or any other possible rotor/hubs with ABS sensors has the same number of teeth
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
I here ya about ready to get it done.
Here is some info I found in a book "Brake Systems" (HP books). The 93 and up camaro used a ABS system called "ABS IV". Also using this system are 91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird, and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
Its different than other ABS in a couple ways. It uses a solenoid to "hold" pressure to a wheel when triggered, if no accel is seen, then a screw-driven piston is activated to open. There is negative pressure behind the piston. When it opens, fluid is sucked out until accel is seen at the wheel. Other ABS systems use solenoids instead of the pistons. This gives the ABS IV a "softer" feel.
I also learned that ABS is triggered also by 1 wheel decel faster relative to other wheels (in addition to the programmed rapid decel already discussed).
The system used on vettes is German (Bosch). Very similar to ABS IV except that vettes had a "yaw" or body-roll sensor. Which think is fukin cool.
Yeah..those teeth will have to be exact. A wiring diagram of a 93 and up wheel sensor might provide some knowledge (i.e pulses). I'll email that guy with the hub and see if he can remove that sensor cap or something.
If not, then maybe the hub of one of those others cars with ABS IV can be used. I don't know.
If not then...we'll have to machine them. That will be interesting.
If NONE of that works out, then the 4WAL out of an S10 will work ok too. It uses solenoids instead of pistons, but I'm sure it gets the job done. And the VSS buffer box out of an S10 (called the DCMB relay or DRAC), can be a direct replacement to the bird VSS buffer box. I still need to see a wiring diagram of a 90-92 camaro VSS to cover all ends here.
Man...i need to quit thinking about this so much and clean my house.
Here is some info I found in a book "Brake Systems" (HP books). The 93 and up camaro used a ABS system called "ABS IV". Also using this system are 91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird, and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
Its different than other ABS in a couple ways. It uses a solenoid to "hold" pressure to a wheel when triggered, if no accel is seen, then a screw-driven piston is activated to open. There is negative pressure behind the piston. When it opens, fluid is sucked out until accel is seen at the wheel. Other ABS systems use solenoids instead of the pistons. This gives the ABS IV a "softer" feel.
I also learned that ABS is triggered also by 1 wheel decel faster relative to other wheels (in addition to the programmed rapid decel already discussed).
The system used on vettes is German (Bosch). Very similar to ABS IV except that vettes had a "yaw" or body-roll sensor. Which think is fukin cool.
Yeah..those teeth will have to be exact. A wiring diagram of a 93 and up wheel sensor might provide some knowledge (i.e pulses). I'll email that guy with the hub and see if he can remove that sensor cap or something.
If not, then maybe the hub of one of those others cars with ABS IV can be used. I don't know.
If not then...we'll have to machine them. That will be interesting.
If NONE of that works out, then the 4WAL out of an S10 will work ok too. It uses solenoids instead of pistons, but I'm sure it gets the job done. And the VSS buffer box out of an S10 (called the DCMB relay or DRAC), can be a direct replacement to the bird VSS buffer box. I still need to see a wiring diagram of a 90-92 camaro VSS to cover all ends here.
Man...i need to quit thinking about this so much and clean my house.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
Matt87GTA
Hey buddy could I bother you for some more diagrams? I tried to get onto the site, but it wanted an ID number.
90-92 Camaro VSS
98+ f-body EBCM
98+ f-body front wheel sensor
93 Blazer VSS buffer box (I think it'll be called a DRAC or DCMB)
90-92 Camaro VSS
98+ f-body EBCM
98+ f-body front wheel sensor
93 Blazer VSS buffer box (I think it'll be called a DRAC or DCMB)
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From: The State of Hockey
Car: 1987 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Miniram'd 383, 24X LS1 PCM
Transmission: TH700R4, 4200 stall
Axle/Gears: 9", 4.33:1
Sorry for the late reply.... been busy (who isn't right? )
OK, alldata doesn't seem to have anything for the EBCM or the wheel speed sensors for the 98+ F-body aside from the basic replacement information for charging labor through a shop.... The schematics just aren't in there for that stuff.... yet anyways.
I did find the VSS for the 90-92 Z28. This is actually integral inside the 730 ECM itself and there is on external VSS buffer. I ran into this when I swapped to the 730 ECM in my car. I cut out the old VSS buffer and spliced the wires in so that the 730 ECM was acting as the buffer. It also required a flag change in the PROM but it works better and makes the wiring a little less cluttered under the dash....
Anyways, the pic is below
And here is the VSS buffer for the 93 S10 with 4WAL....
)OK, alldata doesn't seem to have anything for the EBCM or the wheel speed sensors for the 98+ F-body aside from the basic replacement information for charging labor through a shop.... The schematics just aren't in there for that stuff.... yet anyways.
I did find the VSS for the 90-92 Z28. This is actually integral inside the 730 ECM itself and there is on external VSS buffer. I ran into this when I swapped to the 730 ECM in my car. I cut out the old VSS buffer and spliced the wires in so that the 730 ECM was acting as the buffer. It also required a flag change in the PROM but it works better and makes the wiring a little less cluttered under the dash....
Anyways, the pic is below
And here is the VSS buffer for the 93 S10 with 4WAL....
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Vancouver, WA
Car: 87 IROC-Z28
Engine: 305 TPI-New 355 on the engine stand
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Eaton posi-Soon a 9" Ford!
The 4th gen hub I have has 47 teeth on the rotating tone wheel, and the stationary metal magnetic ring around it.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
thanks alloy....too bad its not the exact same number. Oh well. What year hub is that from by the way??
Looks like we could just "shave" off 5 teeth from the S10 wheel if we had too. Could shave 1 for every ten you count along the outside to make it balanced. 52-5=47, right?
At 40 mph, my wheel would be turning just as many revolutions per second as the LS1 next to me going 40 mph. Say he gets 1 complete revolution per second, as I do as well. His sensor sees 47 pulses per second. If we shaved off 5 teeth from an S10 exciter ring, we'd be sending 47 pulses in one second too.
Is this sound??
Looks like we could just "shave" off 5 teeth from the S10 wheel if we had too. Could shave 1 for every ten you count along the outside to make it balanced. 52-5=47, right?
At 40 mph, my wheel would be turning just as many revolutions per second as the LS1 next to me going 40 mph. Say he gets 1 complete revolution per second, as I do as well. His sensor sees 47 pulses per second. If we shaved off 5 teeth from an S10 exciter ring, we'd be sending 47 pulses in one second too.
Is this sound??
Last edited by Matthew91-Z28; Dec 18, 2003 at 04:19 PM.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
Thanks Matt....I didn't see pulse outputs on the diagram...but I do know that the '93 buffer sends 2000 pulse/mile to the ECM, 4000 to cruise control and instr cluster, and 128000 pulses per mile to the ABS.
Now if you have a bird, this will be pretty simple, except that only 2000 pulses/mile go to the cruise control. Which means that you'll have to splice a wire into any 2000 pulse/mile output on the '93 buffer and send it to the cruise control.
And in the camaro, the VSS sends all 4000 pulses/mile to the ECM. The '93 buffer sends only 2000. Since the ECM acts as the buffer in the camaro, you would not use ANY output on the buffer excpet the ABS and pick any 4000 pulse/mile output to send to the ECM. Then notice how the VSS on the camaro has 2 wires (1 yel and 1 ppl). Well these would plug into the '93 buffer just fine But at the ECM where the ppl wire used to plug in, you'd have to wire that connection to ground (the ppl wire is ground anyway right?).
Thanks alot, by the way.
Now if you have a bird, this will be pretty simple, except that only 2000 pulses/mile go to the cruise control. Which means that you'll have to splice a wire into any 2000 pulse/mile output on the '93 buffer and send it to the cruise control.
And in the camaro, the VSS sends all 4000 pulses/mile to the ECM. The '93 buffer sends only 2000. Since the ECM acts as the buffer in the camaro, you would not use ANY output on the buffer excpet the ABS and pick any 4000 pulse/mile output to send to the ECM. Then notice how the VSS on the camaro has 2 wires (1 yel and 1 ppl). Well these would plug into the '93 buffer just fine But at the ECM where the ppl wire used to plug in, you'd have to wire that connection to ground (the ppl wire is ground anyway right?).
Thanks alot, by the way.
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From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Car: '88 Iroc, '91 RS, and a '70 RS
Engine: 5.7 TPI; 5.0 TBI; ZZ4/T56 on the ag
Transmission: A4, A4, slated to be a T56
Here's a pic or two of the 4th gen rear backing plates I have, '93 or '94 IIRC. Note the holes for the sensor, I only have one of them.
Ed
Ed
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From: memphis tn usa
I know it was said that you are trying to use an "ABS IV" system. Who designed this system? GM uses many systems from many companies. To name a few: Bosch 2U/2S, Bosch III, Delco Moraine III, Delphi Chassis VI, Kelsey-Hayes RWAL, Kelsey-Hayes 4WAL, Teves Mark II, Teves Mark IV, Bosch 5, Delco/Bosch 5, and Bosch 5.3. These are all the systems used by GM up to 1997. Each one has its diffrerences in components and how they work. Also, just for your info, the EBCM doesnt read "pulses". It reads an AC frequency. All a wheel speed sensor is, is an AC generator. The reluctor wheel (the wheel with the teeth) breaks a magnetic field in the sensor. The magnetic field being broke creates an alternating current. The EBcM compares the frequency of each wheel speed sensor. A VSS is the same thing, execpt its frequency is being used to operate the speedo. It also acts as the wss on some models.
I am not trying to flame anyone or anything. I just think I might be able to contribute some info that my be usefull to you. If you could tell me exactly which system your using, I could be more of a help.
I am not trying to flame anyone or anything. I just think I might be able to contribute some info that my be usefull to you. If you could tell me exactly which system your using, I could be more of a help.
Last edited by b92z28; Dec 18, 2003 at 08:10 PM.
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From: memphis tn usa
Just a couple more things.
You cant just shave off teeth. Missing or broken teeth causes voltage spikes from the WSS (wheel speed sensors). The ECBM will most likely disable ABS thinking you have 1 or more bad WSS.
You must keep the wire coming from the brake switch. Most ABS systems will not initiate ABS braking without an input from the brake switch. Depending on which ABS system you use, you will need either a normally open or a normally closed switch.
You cant just shave off teeth. Missing or broken teeth causes voltage spikes from the WSS (wheel speed sensors). The ECBM will most likely disable ABS thinking you have 1 or more bad WSS.
You must keep the wire coming from the brake switch. Most ABS systems will not initiate ABS braking without an input from the brake switch. Depending on which ABS system you use, you will need either a normally open or a normally closed switch.
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Originally posted by b92z28
I know it was said that you are trying to use an "ABS IV" system. Who designed this system? GM uses many systems from many companies. To name a few: Bosch 2U/2S, Bosch III, Delco Moraine III, Delphi Chassis VI, Kelsey-Hayes RWAL, Kelsey-Hayes 4WAL, Teves Mark II, Teves Mark IV, Bosch 5, Delco/Bosch 5, and Bosch 5.3. These are all the systems used by GM up to 1997. Each one has its diffrerences in components and how they work. Also, just for your info, the EBCM doesnt read "pulses". It reads an AC frequency. All a wheel speed sensor is, is an AC generator. The reluctor wheel (the wheel with the teeth) breaks a magnetic field in the sensor. The magnetic field being broke creates an alternating current. The EBcM compares the frequency of each wheel speed sensor. A VSS is the same thing, execpt its frequency is being used to operate the speedo. It also acts as the wss on some models.
I am not trying to flame anyone or anything. I just think I might be able to contribute some info that my be usefull to you. If you could tell me exactly which system your using, I could be more of a help.
I know it was said that you are trying to use an "ABS IV" system. Who designed this system? GM uses many systems from many companies. To name a few: Bosch 2U/2S, Bosch III, Delco Moraine III, Delphi Chassis VI, Kelsey-Hayes RWAL, Kelsey-Hayes 4WAL, Teves Mark II, Teves Mark IV, Bosch 5, Delco/Bosch 5, and Bosch 5.3. These are all the systems used by GM up to 1997. Each one has its diffrerences in components and how they work. Also, just for your info, the EBCM doesnt read "pulses". It reads an AC frequency. All a wheel speed sensor is, is an AC generator. The reluctor wheel (the wheel with the teeth) breaks a magnetic field in the sensor. The magnetic field being broke creates an alternating current. The EBcM compares the frequency of each wheel speed sensor. A VSS is the same thing, execpt its frequency is being used to operate the speedo. It also acts as the wss on some models.
I am not trying to flame anyone or anything. I just think I might be able to contribute some info that my be usefull to you. If you could tell me exactly which system your using, I could be more of a help.
i dont know the exact name of it... its the ABS for 98-02 Fbodys. from what i have been told, they are all the same system.
the box itself is much smaller then previous systems.. about half the size of the S10's
if you're looking at just the peaks of the AC, it does look like pulses.. but i know what you're sayin
technicly, your more accurate.. lol..what do i have to look for to tell the systems apart? i have a club gathering this weekend.. i can write down part numbers/years ect for the cars that are there if you tell me what to look for.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
GM refers to it as "ABS VI" and used it on 93 and up f-bodies. I'll have to check the publishing date of my reference book because it may have been released before the 98's arrived. I assume that all 4th gens had ABS VI. I know its made by Delco (who changed their name to Delphi) This is probably the same as the Delphi Chassis IV. I'll have to check.
The 2 differences is this sytem that make it unique are
a) Using screw-drivin pistons to decrease pressure in the line (instead of solenoids).
and b.) Their is no pump system (which is why its smaller). The Kelsey-Hayes 4WAL (for the S10's) has a separate pump unit that generates increases pressure in the line from fluid in the dump valve. The only pressure generated in the ABS IV is from the drivers foot on the pedal.
These differences just make it "softer". You feel the pulses more in the 4WAL. And the ABS IV only cycles 7 times per second.
OK
b92Z28 .....After knowing that the 4th gen wheel has 5 less teeth, and shaving teeth would cause a spike, what would you recommend? Seems that machining a wheel would be the only option....because the AC voltage generated is directly proportional to the number of teeth??
Ed
Thanks for the pics. Do you happen to know where the rear tone wheels are located on the 93-94? Are the on the axle shaft between the backing plate and the hub? Any clue how many teeth there? I assume that there should be the same number of teeth both front and rear, else there will be different deceleration values between the front and rear.
And..only vettes used the Bosch systems (well along with some caddies and buicks). I really like the bosch setup d/t the ABS adjustment above a certain g-force. Could be used on a thirdgen if we had the same tooth count on the tone wheels.
The 2 differences is this sytem that make it unique are
a) Using screw-drivin pistons to decrease pressure in the line (instead of solenoids).
and b.) Their is no pump system (which is why its smaller). The Kelsey-Hayes 4WAL (for the S10's) has a separate pump unit that generates increases pressure in the line from fluid in the dump valve. The only pressure generated in the ABS IV is from the drivers foot on the pedal.
These differences just make it "softer". You feel the pulses more in the 4WAL. And the ABS IV only cycles 7 times per second.
OK
b92Z28 .....After knowing that the 4th gen wheel has 5 less teeth, and shaving teeth would cause a spike, what would you recommend? Seems that machining a wheel would be the only option....because the AC voltage generated is directly proportional to the number of teeth??
Ed
Thanks for the pics. Do you happen to know where the rear tone wheels are located on the 93-94? Are the on the axle shaft between the backing plate and the hub? Any clue how many teeth there? I assume that there should be the same number of teeth both front and rear, else there will be different deceleration values between the front and rear.
And..only vettes used the Bosch systems (well along with some caddies and buicks). I really like the bosch setup d/t the ABS adjustment above a certain g-force. Could be used on a thirdgen if we had the same tooth count on the tone wheels.
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From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Car: '88 Iroc, '91 RS, and a '70 RS
Engine: 5.7 TPI; 5.0 TBI; ZZ4/T56 on the ag
Transmission: A4, A4, slated to be a T56
Ed, Thanks for the pics. Do you happen to know where the rear tone wheels are located on the 93-94? Are the on the axle shaft between the backing plate and the hub? Any clue how many teeth there?
Ed
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From: Norfolk, VA. USA
Car: 86 Trans Am, 88 Formula
Engine: 95LT4, 305TPI
Transmission: T56, T5
I didn't see this mentioned when I scanned through all the posts, but the 4th gen cars with Traction Control have the ABS sensors on the backing plates. Cars without traction control have the sensor on the top of the differential.
This is on all 93-02 models that I've personally seen,
We did a brake swap on my friends 98 Firebird and he didn't have any sensors on his backing plates. I swapped some LT1 brakes for his LS1 brakes since he needed some clearance for his 15" drag wheels.
This is on all 93-02 models that I've personally seen,
We did a brake swap on my friends 98 Firebird and he didn't have any sensors on his backing plates. I swapped some LT1 brakes for his LS1 brakes since he needed some clearance for his 15" drag wheels.
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
from yesterdays local paper: http://www.charleston.net/stories/12..._20bosch.shtml
turns out bosch makes their new ABS system about 10mins from where i live!
tomarrow, if i get a break at work (reduced people there from the holidays), im going to call and talk to them and see what they have to say.
perhaps end up going a totally diffrent route.. lol.
turns out bosch makes their new ABS system about 10mins from where i live!
tomarrow, if i get a break at work (reduced people there from the holidays), im going to call and talk to them and see what they have to say.
perhaps end up going a totally diffrent route.. lol.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
Zepher
Thanks for reminding me.
Totally forgot about that. Well...I know that if you had drums on a 93-97 4th gen rear you had the sensor on the differential. I'm pretty sure that if you had discs for those years, the sensors were on the backing plates.
TCS was an option in '94 I think. I think you're right about having TCS and having sensors at the wheels.
So as long as you find a rear disc and/or TCS you'll prob have sensors at the wheels versus the differential.
MRdude
Let us know what you hear
Thanks for reminding me.
Totally forgot about that. Well...I know that if you had drums on a 93-97 4th gen rear you had the sensor on the differential. I'm pretty sure that if you had discs for those years, the sensors were on the backing plates.
TCS was an option in '94 I think. I think you're right about having TCS and having sensors at the wheels.
So as long as you find a rear disc and/or TCS you'll prob have sensors at the wheels versus the differential.
MRdude
Let us know what you hear
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From: Norfolk, VA. USA
Car: 86 Trans Am, 88 Formula
Engine: 95LT4, 305TPI
Transmission: T56, T5
rear discs without TCS had the sensor in the diff, just to let you know.
I did the brakes on my friends girlfriends 97 Formula
as well as the brake swap on my friends 98 Firebird.
Both rear disc cars, both with the abs sensor in the diff.
I did the brakes on my friends girlfriends 97 Formula
as well as the brake swap on my friends 98 Firebird.
Both rear disc cars, both with the abs sensor in the diff.
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From: Norfolk, VA. USA
Car: 86 Trans Am, 88 Formula
Engine: 95LT4, 305TPI
Transmission: T56, T5
I just double checked the backing plates on the 98 brakes from the car with no TCS and there is no sensor or sensor provision on it.
My rear came from a 99 SS with Traction Control (called ASR on the Camaros) and has the sensors,
My rear came from a 99 SS with Traction Control (called ASR on the Camaros) and has the sensors,
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
Thanks for that info....Frustrating to know that all this is riding on that damn front tone wheel.
What to do about that?? Someone thought about other rotors that are similar to ours (.i.e S10 rotor) that may have 47 teeth. Now we know that the S10 is exactly the same as a 3rd gen rotor minus the tone wheel.
What other vehicles may be the same? Someone prev mentioned that the 94-96 impala has a rotor that sits on a spindle, similar to 3rd gens. Anyone else have any ideas?
Like I mentioned, these following cars all had ABS VI:
91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal
and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird,
and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
What to do about that?? Someone thought about other rotors that are similar to ours (.i.e S10 rotor) that may have 47 teeth. Now we know that the S10 is exactly the same as a 3rd gen rotor minus the tone wheel.
What other vehicles may be the same? Someone prev mentioned that the 94-96 impala has a rotor that sits on a spindle, similar to 3rd gens. Anyone else have any ideas?
Like I mentioned, these following cars all had ABS VI:
91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal
and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird,
and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
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Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
no luck on the new bosch system as of yet... havent been able to talk to anyone that can help...
but then again, its the holidays, so ive got alot of msgs... heh. didnt think id have to go thru this many people.
as far as the 4thgen ABS plan:
if these following cars all had ABS VI:
91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal
and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird,
and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
then the next step is to look at their front rotor/hub assemblys and see what they have.
hopefully, not all GMs have the new style sealed sensor.
but then again, its the holidays, so ive got alot of msgs... heh. didnt think id have to go thru this many people.
as far as the 4thgen ABS plan:
if these following cars all had ABS VI:
91 and up Skylark, Saturn, Regal
and 92 and up grand prix, le mans, and sunbird,
and 94 and up Olds Cutlass.
then the next step is to look at their front rotor/hub assemblys and see what they have.
hopefully, not all GMs have the new style sealed sensor.
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
Sorry you have not heard on the bosch system yet. Its a nice system. It would be tough to take a system out of a vette, just because of the funky sensor mounting on the IRS. But, I'm sure there are ways around it. A few other GM cars without IRS had the bosch system (have to get back to you on that).
I have all next week off. I may do some investigating into the rotors off those other makes.
So close, yet......
I have all next week off. I may do some investigating into the rotors off those other makes.
So close, yet......
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From: Texas
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 350 TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23 with Eaton posi
I don't have any updates. I am currently working on more readily obtainable mods.
The equation for ABS is pretty simple....its just implementing it.
As it is, if you have a stock disc/drum setup, you could run ABS from a early 90's S10 (with a little tweaking in the VSS wiring). This is the easiest way, I believe. All you need is 2 S10 front rotors, and the complete ABS system from the S10.
The above may be the easiest, but not the best by far. I think the best would be to run the Bosch system used on vettes. This is neat because the system utilizes a YAW sensor. So when braking in cornering, the BOSCH system re-directs more pressure to the calipers on the inside tires.
But, the best system (as far as actual installation and performance) is the one used on 4th gen f-bodies. Everything can be plumbed into a thirdgen EXCEPT the tone wheels and wheel sensors. To do this, you'd have to mount S10 sensors (since they fit the stock thirdgen spindle) and you have to have some tone wheels made with 47 teeth (probably by a higher end machine shop) and mount them on the rotor the same way the S10 does.
The equation for ABS is pretty simple....its just implementing it.
As it is, if you have a stock disc/drum setup, you could run ABS from a early 90's S10 (with a little tweaking in the VSS wiring). This is the easiest way, I believe. All you need is 2 S10 front rotors, and the complete ABS system from the S10.
The above may be the easiest, but not the best by far. I think the best would be to run the Bosch system used on vettes. This is neat because the system utilizes a YAW sensor. So when braking in cornering, the BOSCH system re-directs more pressure to the calipers on the inside tires.
But, the best system (as far as actual installation and performance) is the one used on 4th gen f-bodies. Everything can be plumbed into a thirdgen EXCEPT the tone wheels and wheel sensors. To do this, you'd have to mount S10 sensors (since they fit the stock thirdgen spindle) and you have to have some tone wheels made with 47 teeth (probably by a higher end machine shop) and mount them on the rotor the same way the S10 does.
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
Supreme Member
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Posts: 9,550
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From: Charleston, SC
Car: 91 Camaro Vert
Engine: 02 LS1, HX40
Transmission: 2002 LS1 M6
i still put street tires on it and cruise, but i dont worry too much about stopping.. or turning for that matter.. lol.
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