rlewi771

Did these last weekend along with racecraft drop spindles and other various goodies

Front: 4 piston Wilwood FSL calipers with 13 x 1.25'' two piece rotors with aluminum hats.

Rear: went from open diff drum brakes to posi with 12'' EBC slotted/dimpled/vented rotors. EBC greenstuff pads. PBR calipers painted black.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

What front rotors and hats did you use?

rlewi771

i got the front kit thru Ed miller ..so good question. Good luck getting a hold of him as well to ask. I'd love to get a run down of part #'s for the calipers/rotors/hats/pads so that I can purchase replacements in the future (ed if you're out there, hook us up)

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Good to see more users with Wilwoods. How do you like them. What pads are you running?

rlewi771

Haven't had a chance to really feel them out yet. I installed racecraft 2'' drop spindles at the same time and now the car sits too low to be driven. I took the car out for one short test drive but returned quickly due to how low it was, I need to find a solution to that problem and then I can test out the brakes. I'll let ya know

rlewi771

oh and Wilwood pads at the moment.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm in a somewhat similar situation, I just got done with a major suspension/steering/brake upgrade and am still working out ride height too. These cars don't like being real low.

As for pads, Wilwood make many compounds. I assume you are using the ones supplied with Ed's kit? Those would be the BP-10s. That is what I am running currently but they are a little noisy for me. I am trying Hawks Ceramics. They should be here tomorrow. I'll let you know what I think of them. Other than the noise I really like these brakes. I actually drive the car much harder now because I know I can get it stopped.

I will be putting these to the real test next weekend when I get the car out on Pacific Raceway. The 140-60mph braking into turn 2 should be a lot of fun.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

I'm not sure what calipers Ed uses, but when I designbed and built my brake system I used the K compund pads and they work well for both street and track use. The part number was 15Q-6829K.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That part number shows up as the Q compound. Which Wilwood told me is their most street friendly. However they also told me the BP-10 is extremely street friendly, which I don't agree with. So I figure I'll try the Hawks which get really good reviews from the BMW guys running Wilwoods.

The kit includes the Forged Superlight calipers, part number 7476 in most cases.

rlewi771

Ya I'm using whatever Ed supplied me with and BP 10 sounds correct. I will look forward to hearing back on how the hawks do. So..I didn't want to do it (well, I did, but my bank account didn't) but I just got off the phone with Ground Control and ordered weight jacks so that I can get the ride height where I want it. Being they are only about an hr down the road from me I may have them before the weekend! I'll let you know what I think about the brakes once I get the jacks in and have the car at a manageable ride height.

rlewi771

OH..and I wanna go from 140-60. lucky

dust3r

iTrader: (1)

What length springs did you order? If you are planning on using the weight jacks to raise the front a little you might want to try a spring longer than 8" for the front. I don't know if you remember my post in your suspension thread where I said my setup is very similar to yours, but the reason I said that was because I am also running racecraft drop spindles with ground control weight jacks. With my 8" 1000 lb/in springs, I couldn't fit my finger between the tire and the inner fender liner with them adjusted to maximum height.

rlewi771

Thank u for that info. I don't know what size i'm getting yet. They took my order and are going to give it to their tech that is going to come up with a recommended length and rate. I explained to them what was happening and what I am trying to accomplish. Hopefully the pros will know to go over 8" I'll call them and see what he came up with

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Good point, with 2" drop spindles you will want 2" taller springs than they normally supplied. I do not have drop spindles but with their supplied springs I can go from resting on the bump stops to probably a little lower than stock. I would actually prefer a taller spring myself. You may want to consider 3" longer than their normal spring.

rlewi771

OK so here are the specs they came up with. You guys tell me with your experience if you think it'll work.

Front 9.5'' @ 750lb
Rear 10'' @ 175

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

My setup is 8" 850lb and 10" 175 lb. If I had to do it again I'd get 9" front and 9" rear. Check out this thread. It has a lot of info and pictures of weight jack ride height on my car.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ng-height.html

With your 2" drop spindles I'd seriously consider 10.5" fronts and 9" rears.

dust3r

iTrader: (1)

I would bump the rears down to 9".

rlewi771

got them to bump the rears down to 9'' I'm going to give the fronts a try, if i'm not happy i'll send them back and get larger. whats the worst that could happen...not be able to drive my car for another week (a hint of sarcasm) After all the upgrades i've done i'm dying to drive this thing. Just got my Nitto Nt-01 Road Course (but DOT approved) tires today...cant wait to rip up some mountain roads..and living in Lake Tahoe, that wont be a problem at all

dust3r

iTrader: (1)

I've been waiting a year to drive my car! 3 sets of wheels, 3 sets of springs, 2 sets of drop spindles, 3 brake upgrades later, I just might be able to drive this thing in 3 and a half weeks when my wheels arrive! I am hoping the front springs work for us...I don't have any more money!

rlewi771

haha oh man...good luck with that. I feel for ya. Luckily mine hasn't been nearly as painful, but it has had a set back or two...thats just the way it goes though; you're going to be stoked to be drivin it soon enough

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Hey rlewi771,

I could really use a favor. Can you take a look at your front brakes and let me know if the top of your pads overhang the edge of the rotor. (IE, they are mounted too far from the center of the rotor).

I have been chasing down a number of issues with this brake kit and I'm beginning to think my BP-10 pads aren't quite right.

I'll start another post but I figure you may be able to help since you have virtually the same brakes as I.

Ok, here is the story.

I installed the brakes and had a bunch of squeal after the initial bed-in process. So I pulled a wheel and noticed the pads overhang the edge of the caliper. Like in this picture.



This caused a ridge to form in my pads like this picture.



So I contacted Ed and told him I thought his caliper mounting bracket was the wrong size. We agreed he would make new ones for me. In the meantime I decided to slot the holes 0.1" on my existing bracket so I could change the caliper location to where the pad didn't overhang the rotor. With the caliper re-located I found the clearance between the caliper and the edge of the rotor to be really tight. Like this.



I was a bit concerned that with heat expansion the rotor would contact the caliper. However I shrugged it off realizing that the only way to increase clearance is to have my previous problem of pad overhang. I also sanded the pads flat to remove the ridge. I reinstalled the pads and re-bed in the brakes and had the same squeal from the pads.

This time I decided to try a new pad compound. So I ordered the Hawks Ceramic pads. I installed them tonight and to my shock they sit inside of the edge of the rotor by about the same amount that I moved the caliper inward. So it seems as though the Hawks would have worked perfectly with Ed's brackets and the caliper. My new theory was that the BP-10s were constructed with the friction compound too close to the top edge of the backing plate, causing either pad overhang or to have very limited clearance between the caliper and rotor. You can see from the above picture, it sure looks like the rotor struck the caliper at some point. The paint on far edge of the rotor is scrapped off and you can see a buildup of metal on the caliper in the picture.

Then I remembered I ordered a set of Wilwood Polymatrix B pads for track use. So I popped them in the caliper and they fit very slightly better than the BP-10s but still not right. Is it possible that both the BP-10s and PolyBs were constructed with the friction material too high on the backing plate? I wouldn't think so, but I have no other explanation for why you would either have pad overhang or rotor/caliper interference.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Here are pictures of each pad in the caliper. Notice the difference in the edge of the pad compared to the edge of the rotor. Again, this is with my modified bracket to get rid of the BP-10 overhang issue.

Wilwood BP-10 pad, the edge of the pad is basically even with the edge of the rotor.



Hawks Ceramic, the edge of the pad is about 0.1" from the edge of the rotor.



Wilwood Polymatrix B, the edge of the pad is very slightly in from the edge of the rotor, but basically the same as the BP-10s

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

So basically what I'm looking to find out is the distance of your pads from the mounting ears of the baking plate to the start of the friction material. I think this can be measured by first putting the pad into the caliper. Then lay a straight edge across where the ears of the pad rest on the caliper. Then measure the distance between the friction material and the straight edge. Thanks for any help that you can offer.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I've had that problem running polymatrix pads in the past, my solution was simply, I jsut took a flapper wheel and chamfered the edge of the pad. Once it wears down to the chamfer, take the pads out and do it again.

rlewi771

ya i'll see if i can take a look at it tonight and help out.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Thats incredible. Do they expect customers to put up with this?

Do you agree that its a pad manufacturing error?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

It's not a pad manufacturing error, it's an application error. Check the minimum rotor size for the intended use (calipers) and you'll see what the problem is. Also, most pads for a specific caliper are avilable in 3 sizes with different pad surface areas.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Twin_Turbo,

I don't know what you mean. Wilwood specifies a 13.06" rotor for these calipers. It does not make note of maximum or minimum diameter. My rotors are speced at 330mm which is 12.99" Can you explain what you mean? I would think a smaller rotor would gain me more caliper to rotor clearance.

Also, I do not know what you mean about 3 different pad sizes for the caliper. As far as I know, the FSL only takes pads on the 7420 backing plate. I do not see any note on Wilwood's site that you can get 7420 pads in more than one size. I should note that the Hawk pads that I have do have a slightly smaller (maybe 5%) pad area than the Wilwood pads. Again can help me understand what you mean?

Thanks.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Download the mounting specs/diagram or the calipers w/ the dims. they list the max and min rotor size.

Maybe your calipers don't have multiple pad choices, not sure. My Billet IR-GTs, Integra 4s and Integra 6s have several pad sizes. the backing plate is the same, the friction material size is different.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok, got it. Thanks for the heads up.

Min Rotor: 11.75"
Max Rotor: 13.06"

So I should be good there as my rotors are 12.99" diameter.

As far as pad surface area. I can't find any reference of multiple sized pads for those calipers on Wilwood's site. It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer didn't provide all the information though.

I do know you can get the 7420 in various thicknesses but not surface area, again as far as I know.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The site only lists a fraction of the pads. I have a paper catalog somewhere from years ago and there are endless pages of polymatrix pads in it.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I did find their .pdf Pad Catalog on their website. 56 pages of pads. I couldn't find any other pad size on the 7420 backing plate. I'm curious to hear if rlewi771 has this issue.

rlewi771

sorry i was unable to get to it last night, I should be able to today. I'll keep you updated

rlewi771

i know it wouldn't be the most optimal fix, but you could take a file to the underside of the ear on the pad to remove just enough to let it drop in some more. I'll let you know what mine look like later today

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No worries.

I did consider filing the ears. However the bridge bolt is what really holds the pads in. If you file the ears, then you have a gap between the bridge bolt and the pads. So the pads can move up to their original position until they hit the bridge bolt.

I talked to Wilwood yesterday. I sent them pictures. Their rep and manager reviewed them. They told me they have been having QC issues with their BP-10 pads. They recommend just using the pads as is and letting the ridge form. That's total BS. I can't believe that was their answer. Honestly I'll never buy Wilwoods again. Their cavalier attitude towards tolerances, fit and finish, and customer satisfaction is simply unacceptable and potentialy dangerous.

Tonight I will take a file to the pads and remove the overhanging material. Lots of fun.

John
^ wishing he would have ponied up for the Baers

rlewi771

alright, I checked mine out. They do not overhang like yours do. They basically come right up to the edge where the rotor bevels and they do the same thing. I measured from the part on the caliper that the ears of the pads sit on, straight down to the friction surface and came up with .525'' That was using a micrometer flush up against the metal area on the caliper in which the pad ears sit and slide across under braking; measuring straight down it from the top of it to the first point that you hit pad. The very slight amount that might look like overhang on the far side is just the beveled edge of the pad. check out the pics and holler if you have any questions. good luck with it.

Ryan

rlewi771

in the last picture of this post you talk about your caliper to rotor clearance possibly being an issue with heat expansion. It has definitely been an issue on mine. Under HARD braking the rotors expand enough to contact the caliper and make a horrible grinding noise. A few days ago I went in and loosened the caliper mounting bolts and found that there is a little bit of play to where you can "leverage" up on the caliper and then lock the bolts down tight to add a little bit of clearance from rotor to caliper. I basically used the same sized flat head screw drivers on either side of the caliper and wedged them in between the rotor and caliper to effectively lift the caliper away from the rotor evenly. But now I have the slight pad overhang problem like you had (maybe a little bit less)..... bummer, but I can deal with that over having the rotor contact the caliper. I wonder if wilwood is to blame as you may have suspected..... food for thought