Well, I'm finally getting back to work on the third gen, and it's time for a brake job! Seeing the condition things are in on it, it's probably best I replace as much as possible! (I probably shouldn't have even been driving it the last time I did). There are a few things I have questions on before I order some parts.

- I've noticed you can buy brake rotors with or without the wheel hub. How do I know if I should buy it with the hub or not?

- I'm a little less familiar w/drum brakes than disc. I would imagine both new drums and shoes would be smart (couldn't tell ya when they were last changed). The main thing I'm wondering is if I should replace any other parts in them, and how do you adjust them properly? Is there anything I should not touch while changing stuff that might interfere with the parking brake?

- And finally, should I be paranoid about the master cylinder or brake booster at all? How often are these parts typically changed?

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

Rear - replace the rubber hose from car to axle, and get a drum rebuild kit - includes all springs and new wheel cylinders, and of course the shoes.

Front - replace the rubber hoses from car to wheel (one each side), and the pads.

I'd not worry about drums, calipers, booster, or master cylinder unless you have issues after the pad/hose/shoe/cylinder replacement is done.

 

you might not need new drums, but to make them easier to adjust and install you can get them machined or even just have them take care of that rust ridge on the inner surface of the drum. otherwise you're likely to end up fighting the rust ridge when you adjust the drums.

the parking brake isn't a big deal, you'll unhook the cable to get a shoe off and put it back together the way you found it.

to check the master cylinder look for wetness and/or flaking paint under the master cylinder, on the front of the brake booster. If you notice your master cylinder is leaking then your brake booster is possibly on it's way out because the brake fluid will eat away the diaphragm of the booster. master cylinders can leak internally and never lose fluid but the usual diagnosis for that is the brakes suck for no apparent reason. it's not uncommon to have an original master cylinder or booster but they do go out. luckily when they go out it's only one seal so you still have the other brakes to stop with (ex: front bad, rear brakes still work fine).

 

Ok, I've got just one more question for you guys!

I keep hearing two completely different schools of thought on semi-metallic vs ceramic brake pads. I have ceramic pads on my other car, as one side of the story seems to be that they last longer (the ones on my other car have barely worn much in a couple of years, so I can vouch for it), have less brake fade, and are quieter/cleaner. But I've heard alot of people complain that they eat away at rotors faster, and that you shouldn't buy them unless the vehicle originally came with them installed with them.

I always thought "you get what you pay for" when it comes to this kind of stuff, but my ears are open to the more experienced on this!

 

i have had some good experiences with ceramic pads. i would consider them an upgrade from semi metallic pads.

 

i usually upgrade my cars to a ceramic pad as well, less dust and less squeal are definitely pluses in my book

 

I've got another n00b question too. I'm new to 3rd gens and I also noticed you can get the brakes with/without the hub...can I buy just the hub with the studs on it? I want more options in terms of rotors.

 

lonewolf583: I believe that is an option, but with how inexpensive the regular 10.5" rotors are for these cars, I just went ahead and bought the rotor/hub assemblies.

Ok, I've got a few updates on the work here. Basically, I've been working on it as I've had time (i.e, here and there), and all the front end wheel stuff has been replaced (rotors, wheel bearings, ceramic pads, calipers, and lines). Looks much better now! Now sometime this week, I plan to do the rest of the work, and get started on the back end, where I'm looking at replacing the drum hardware, wheel cylinders, shoes, and seeing if the drums are still good or not.

In the interest of keeping air out of the braking system as I go, I did the pedal pump bleeding process for the front wheels, but it seemed like either a lot of air got in the system, or maybe the master cylinder might be iffy? It took a pretty decent amount of pumping and bleeding before pedal pressure started to come back, and even then, the pedal felt perhaps just slightly spongy to me, although maybe I'm being a bit paranoid?

How long should bleeding one wheel take? And should the pedal sink to the floor the first several times of releasing fluid/allowing air in? The brake fluid in the system was also a dark, murky brown that was long overdue for a change/flush (The whole car was pretty poorly maintained by the PO. Already had rust-colored sludge spill out of an old coolant hose back when working on that!). I've been told that leaving old fluid in way too long (like this case) is pretty bad for the MC seals, and replacement is a good idea to be on the safe side.

Also, not that I've found any symptoms (yet), but how common or uncommon is it for a booster to go bad?

 

easiest thing to mess up is bleeding so just check to make sure it's being done right. every time somebody opens the bleeder screw you will feel the pedal lose all it's pressure. just be sure they're closing the valve completely before you let off the brake pedaland you will notice the pedal is soft the first couple times after the valve is closed, that's normal. you're done bleeding a wheel when you can't see any air bubbles coming out anymore and bleeding that wheel isn't helping get the brakes harder.
brake boosters CAN go bad, but they don't usually. you would notice a hard brake pedal and the engine would have a vacuum leak.

 

I see. Well, like I've stated before, the PO took very poor care of the car, and I've had a lot of things go out on me at bad times that were due for replacement. For example, the clutch hydraulics went bad while driving once, had to replace the master and slave cylinders. (Almost got stuck but made it back without a tow!). Another time, the water pump went out on the highway. Overheated and had to get towed home at a late hour. So naturally, I've built up some paranoia at this point with this car .

I guess my only real questions left now, are if/when the master cylinder does go bad, is it an instantaneous brake loss, sort of like how my clutch decided to crap out outta nowhere when the hydraulics went? Or will there by signs/symptoms to watch out for before it happens? The MC isn't expensive, so I'd rather not risk it if there's no symptoms to look out for before a complete failure of one.

 

i refer you to my first post. the only real way you would suddenly lose pressure is if a line breaks, but then you still have the other axle to stop with.

 

Ok, so this morning, I finally went out to get started on the drum work, but the drum seems to be well stuck on there! Yeah, it's a bit rusty, especially around the center wheel hub, so I tried to use some WD-40 to loosen it up but no luck. I also did remember to fully release the parking brake, so it's not that.

My favorite repair manual, aka Haynes (sarcasm) mentions a trick about breaking open the backing plate with a chisel and hammer to get inside the drums and loosen the shoe screws to finally release the drum, but fails to go into much detail on how to do it/what to watch out for so you don't ruin stuff.

Before I just go caveman style on it, what do I do? Not trying to damage other parts in the process! :Lol:

 

on the back of the backing plate, under the axle, there is a opening in the backing plate, and you will see a little gear with teeth. Thats the adjuster for the shoes. if you turn the gear, with a screwdriver or similar, you can loosen the shoes and that will help you get them off.

that or just get a little more violent with the drums. Give them a few good whacks with a BFH and they should come off.

 

Well I spent a good two hours or so today already bathing the thing in WD-40 while beating the living **** out of it with a hammer, but made extremely minimal, if any progress.

The drum rotates freely, so I'm not even so sure it's an issue w/stuck pads or the parking brake, but I didn't find any holes anywhere on the backing plate, just places where bolts and hoses connect, and small indentations. Is it one of these spots I have to break open? Aside from that, I'm completely out of ideas short of tieing the thing to a truck and yanking the little b,~!&+, - off!!!

 

look for an opening or a rubber plug at the 6 o'clock position of the backing plate. unfortunately the adjuster that you would be looking to turn will probably be locked up with rust, but if it works it's a much better way to get the drums off. when the pads are stuck you can pull on the drum and it won't turn when it's pulled outward. if it's stuck on the hub/axle then hammer that drum between the wheel studs and on the outer perimeter of the drum.

 

Flight, I am in the process of doing brakes on my 82 SC. Ive got a few tips that may make your life easier. Many people will not agree with my tactics but hey it works. First off get some PB blaster or other type of lubricant. WD 40 is great for your bedroom door but thats it. Spray on the hub and let it sit for a while. I did a couple of hours. Bang the center of the drum, be careful to avoid the lugs. I did this with a reg metal hammer. that should get it to start moving and breaking free. I then sprayed some more, Then with the claw side of the hammer I placed it in between the backing plate and drum and worked it as if removing a nail from the wall ( <-- this is the part people disagree with) It will look awful, the backing plate will flex but itll handle it fine. I kept doing this while spinning the drum. After some time it broke free enuff where a good whack on the back of the drum popped it off. It takes time. the drum was unharmed. the backing plate was in pretty good shape but can be changed. its only like 18 buck in AZ.

Another good thing to have is a line wrench to remove the flare nuts on the lines (not a flare nut wrench). I stripped everyone using a regular wrench, luckily i found a line wrench and got them off in literally 30 seconds.

Now if I could jus remember how the parts go on . I thought i took a pic but I didnt LOL my Chiltons manual doesnt show good enuff pics to figure it out :/

FYI that rubber gasket to get to the adjuster I have never found. It doesnt exist on my car.

 

Back with an update!

I had a little bit of time to mess with the car today. Turns out I had a special moment last time, and the reason I couldn't seem to locate the plug on the backing plate last time was how dirty it is down there (everything looked like metal, lol). I chiseled out the side opening next to the one w/the rubber plug, and after battling with the adjusting screw and lever for a while, managed to loosen the brake shoes and get the drum off!

It was a bittersweet victory, however. The drum appears to be ruined from the shoes getting worn down to the metal and leaving bad gouges on the inside of it (How the hell was I able to stop w/out symptoms before!?), and now, the passenger side wheel is stuck on the hub! . I ran out of time to work on it since I had to go to work, but what's the easiest way to deal w/the wheel? Is it hammer-time?

P.S: I can get the lug nuts off, it's just that the wheel itself is stuck to the hub assembly.

 

the first way i try to take a stuck rim off is simply kicking it off the car, if that doesn't work, it is indeed hammer time. hit the rim, turn the wheel 90 degrees and hit it again, repeat the process until it falls off. you might have to get mean.

 

Ok, checking back in again, with yet more n00bish pleas for help :/

I've disassembled everything and gotten the old shoes and hardware off. My question now is about getting the wheel cylinder clip out so I can get the old wheel cylinder out. I guess I gotta hunt down some curved needle nosed pliers? (I dont have any yet). Am I trying to push or pull it out? A big problem is that I cant seem to position myself to actually see where the clip is at.

 

Checking back in, again...lol

Some research led me to a trick to get the new clip in. It took a c-clamp and a 1, 1/8 inch socket to force it in all the way. Unfortunately, I've got yet another roadblock. Somehow, the way this thing was previously assembled, the pawl that connects to the secondary shoe actuating lever was never there! I made sure to save everything I removed from the car, but when it came to actually trying to reassemble everything, the pawl isn't there, so now I'm wondering where the hell I'm gonna find one of these? Is it time for a junkyard run?

 

First you need to verify u do have a pawl. On my car the pawl and lever were 2 different pieces however upon research I found out the later years have just one long piece that plays both roles. The junkyard is one place to got to get the pawl. My pawl was available at the local AZ. Just look up drum brake adjusting kit for your year. On my 82 it was only 12 bucks which is worth it to not have to go to the yard and pull it.

 

Well, after a bit of searching, it turns out the parts are sold at my local parts store. But I have everything pictured in the kit, so I decided to look at what comes in the same hardware kit for an early year third gen...surely enough, a separate pawl is included for the second arm..

Then again, I suppose this is what I get for using a Haynes manual that tries to cover every year of the third gen! But hey, winter IS on it's way. Maybe I just need to throw it in the firewood pile and seek out one of the real deal shop manuals!

 

Once again, checking in with what should have been done eons ago, but to be honest, I took a little break from working on it.

Basically, I have the right idea of how to do things at this point, but I decided to go after the stuck wheel to finish things today. I almost immediately jumped to the loosening the lug nuts and rolling the car a few feet method to get the wheel off, but decided to give the rotation dead hammer blows to the wheel method a try, and with success.

Now, maybe the drum itself is rusted to the hub? Even loosening the star wheel all the way, it still wont come off. Should I resort to rotational dead hammer abuse to get it off? Please tell me I can get this stupid thing off without having to resort to a torch. I don't have one, and the vehicle is outdoors.

 

SOLVED!

So basically, the drum itself was fairly badly rust-welded to the hub. Got the adjusting screw completely off, and disconnected the brake line from the wheel cylinder, and it still wouldn't come off. Tried beating the hell out of it with a dead blow hammer after hosing it with PB blaster and still couldn't get it off. Luckily, a neighbor saw me, offered to lend a hand, grabbed some wood-splitting handles, and managed to finally break it free using them as a hammer and chisel. Had that not happened, I was ready to resort to a torch!