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Lets face it, whats so great about the 1LE hub?? the outboard bearing of course! Once the larger 1LE offset hub is used along with a "stacked" rotor in some of these brake conversions, you end up with 1.350 inches of extra track width, mind you .600 is pretty much unavoidable with these kits but wow thats got the wheel & tire out of the wheel well now.
I took a standard 10.5 hub today and bored the outboard hole for the larger 1LE bearing (set3), super simple! Great option for guys who want that extra large bearing without the added track width
Great idea.Im currently looking at the 13" upgrade to my 1LE set-up.How thick is the wall after its enlarged? Did you just take these to a machine shop? Are you bigbrakeupgrade?
Yes, the new hubs, longer studs and larger set 3 cup installed are 200 for the pair or a +75 upgrade in a kit. I found that the besides the bore needing to be expanded it also needs to be lowered or dropped down a little so that the castle nut lines up with the spindles cotter pin holes.
Yes, the new hubs, longer studs and larger set 3 cup installed are 200 for the pair or a +75 upgrade in a kit. I found that the besides the bore needing to be expanded it also needs to be lowered or dropped down a little so that the castle nut lines up with the spindles cotter pin holes.
So how did you come to that measurement? Did you have to press in and remove the race multiple times to get it just right? or are the races different widths?
Just trial and error, first one I cut the bearing sat too high so the next I cut lower (aprox .200) and the cotter hole was almost out of the castle nuts tooth, took it back fifty on the next one is all. I use a mag base dial indicator on the lathe to determine depth of the bore measuring off of the carriage as I plunge.
I'm seriously considering it. I will have our machinist at work do all the work, he has already cut the rotors turning them into hubs. I'm gathering parts for my LS1 front brake swap.
I'm seriously considering it. I will have our machinist at work do all the work, he has already cut the rotors turning them into hubs. I'm gathering parts for my LS1 front brake swap.
Awesome! its an easy job for a good machinist.... I`m working on a CNC Billet Hub for the third gen conversions right now, it will have this 1LE bearing feature standard and I plan to offer it in the sought after 65MM hub register for the CTSV / Camaro SS conversions as well as the standard 2.786 register for all the other conversions, we should have a prototype in a few weeks to show off ! Let us know how your conversion goes!
Looking forward to seeing your CNC Billet hub. Can I assume that it will be aluminum?
Yes the hubs will be cut from aluminum T6061 We are setting up the CNC Mill with the appropriate tooling, optimistically hoping for that to be completed by weeks end and then run a sample over this coming weekend. ( already a week behind my first estimates) So far we have the design completed (to be tweaked I`m sure), we have the tooling paths ready, we have a source for our material thats local enough and have blanks of the 6 x 4 inch round bar squared off by the lathe. So we are ready to cut once the machines tooling is in.
Things to complete:
We just started looking at wheel studs for these. The deck or flange of the hub is thicker than say a stock rotor cut down so finding a M12x1.5 with longer than the std .312 knurl length is looking to be a problem, keeping in mind that our flange will be somewhere around .600 thick I`d like to have full knurl along that length of course..
Finish type or leave bare ? powder is easy enough, anodizing I have not looked into but thats something that has yet to be determined and fairly secondary at this point.
I will start a thread for the sample as soon as I have something tangible to show off.
Actually, the bearing is the least important part. And if you're milling off the rotor to fit bigger, separate rotors, you still get the best part!
1LE hubs are thicker where it matters most, reducing cracking under extreme brake use. That isn't the bearing at all. In fact, if you could get 1LE hubs cast and machined for the smaller bearings, they'd be even stronger.
Actually, the bearing is the least important part. And if you're milling off the rotor to fit bigger, separate rotors, you still get the best part!
1LE hubs are thicker where it matters most, reducing cracking under extreme brake use. That isn't the bearing at all. In fact, if you could get 1LE hubs cast and machined for the smaller bearings, they'd be even stronger.
Playing devils advocate
So in your opinion do you think there would be any benefit to cutting a set of standard hub style rotors to except the 1LE bearings? I can see that it would make the hub marginally weaker because your removing material.
Yes the hubs will be cut from aluminum T6061 We are setting up the CNC Mill with the appropriate tooling, optimistically hoping for that to be completed by weeks end and then run a sample over this coming weekend. ( already a week behind my first estimates) So far we have the design completed (to be tweaked I`m sure), we have the tooling paths ready, we have a source for our material thats local enough and have blanks of the 6 x 4 inch round bar squared off by the lathe. So we are ready to cut once the machines tooling is in.
Things to complete:
We just started looking at wheel studs for these. The deck or flange of the hub is thicker than say a stock rotor cut down so finding a M12x1.5 with longer than the std .312 knurl length is looking to be a problem, keeping in mind that our flange will be somewhere around .600 thick I`d like to have full knurl along that length of course..
Finish type or leave bare ? powder is easy enough, anodizing I have not looked into but thats something that has yet to be determined and fairly secondary at this point.
I will start a thread for the sample as soon as I have something tangible to show off.
Actually, the bearing is the least important part. And if you're milling off the rotor to fit bigger, separate rotors, you still get the best part!
1LE hubs are thicker where it matters most, reducing cracking under extreme brake use. That isn't the bearing at all. In fact, if you could get 1LE hubs cast and machined for the smaller bearings, they'd be even stronger.
The bearing in the 1LE rotor is there for one reason, when the GM brake engineers were tasked with upgrading the brakes for the 1LE and T-TA they looked to their own parts shelf to do it. GM took the B-Body rotor and put the 4.75 pattern on it and had PBR work them a variant of the C4 caliper. The bearing was a bonus.
The combo was chosen because the B-Body rotor put the C4 caliper deep behind the wheel with no chance of wheel to caliper interference. So the B-Body rotors were designed with more weight in mind hence the extra thickness but also were meant for a wider tracked vehicle. For a "track car" an extra 1.25 of track with a brake upgrade is a good thing, on a street car its nothing but bad looks and tires that rub inner fender wells.
I intentionally avoid using the B-Body or 1LE rotor on all of my conversion unless absolutely necessary because of the track increase, as far as strength, I`ve been using the STD hub for over 12 years now on these conversions and have yet to see a failure of the hub itself due to cracking.
So when we decided to open a std hub to accept the 1LE bearing it was to appease a need that the customers have been asking for, it`s apparent that using a larger bearing will increase durability, while using a smaller one will decrease it. Bottom line is, that it is an upgrade over a set 34.
I`ve attached some 1LE history below to support my explanation.
"Due to the many complaints from Camaro racers, Phil Minch, a General Motors brake engineer, set out to come out with a solution. One very important part of this solution was the use of the massive 12-inch front disc brakes off the Chevrolet Caprice as it used the same front bearing package as the Camaro. Unfortunately these calipers, Minch suspected, would end up not being up to the task. So After some research, Minch checked out and was considering the two-piston aluminum caliper manufactured in Australia by PBR. The Corvette used this caliper as they were specifically made for them. To use them for the Camaro, it required modification to bolt to the Camaro spindle. Minch worked with Camaro platform chief engineer Chuck Hughes and F-body power-train manager Ray Canale to get the car modified. The rear disc brakes that came with the original four-wheel disc brake option were felt to be adequate, since most of the braking force is borne by the front brakes. Bill Mitchell of Special Vehicle Developments was contracted to do track testing of the car. The stock front-to-rear proportioning valve was nonadjustable and did not work well with the new brake setup. It was replaced by a new proportioning valve with satisfactory results."
As far as cost its still an unknown but we are looking to be lower than the only other billet hub out there I know about for these type upgrades.
You can just get a front rotor for a 78-81 A/G body and measure it as those cars used the same rotor but with the larger set 3 outer bearing. GM changed to the set 34 outer in 82 so they could use a cheaper rotor/bearing combo for the 3rd gens, S series 2wd p/u and the 83-88 G bodies. Only thing about those 78-81 rotors is they will have 7/16-20 studs in them vs the metric for the later ones.
You can just get a front rotor for a 78-81 A/G body and measure it as those cars used the same rotor but with the larger set 3 outer bearing. GM changed to the set 34 outer in 82 so they could use a cheaper rotor/bearing combo for the 3rd gens, S series 2wd p/u and the 83-88 G bodies. Only thing about those 78-81 rotors is they will have 7/16-20 studs in them vs the metric for the later ones.
These rotors have more offset like a 1LE check the height measurements
heres the 3rd gen specs followed by the 2nd Gen.
We are cutting the first hub this week, finally after many set backs we are running the prototype, the tool paths have been the issues (trying to get the most efficiency and least amount of machine time) I`ll update when I have a sample, Thanks for the patience
3rd Gen
2nd Gen
Last edited by BBU.COM; 05-11-2016 at 05:57 AM.
Reason: added update about billet hubs
How does the FEA compare between the OEM cast hub and your billet hub?
Did the FEA show a need to go to the (approximately) .600" thick flange?
Is it possible to move the wheel mounting face to compensate for the thickness of brake conversions (ie LS1) and keep the stock track-width?
(I will be looking for an upgrade to fit my 17" ROH Snypers)
Thanks guys I will keep you updated on the progress, the FEA or stress analysis I`d have to get from the CNC programmer but when we designed it, I had two different studs in mind for it, both with .312 long knurls.
long story shorter is we went around on the flange thickness and it is .600 or better, I think its a true .625. If I can post the renderings, this piece is thicker everywhere, (the snout, the webs for the flange, the race seats (set 3 and 34) We even lengthened the register so even with a stacked rotor you`ll have more register than a stock OE rotor.
As for making the hub shorter height, I`m sure it possible but that would leave no room for the adapter brackets on the spindle, for instance most conversions use a .375 bracket and if we took back .300 for the added rotor, it leaves about nothing for a bracket. Fact is there is no extra room to play with except for the C5 and C6 which if you kept the rotor in the OE position, you still only have a .200 thick bracket on that conversion.
I requested the stress analysis screen shots today, so I should have those soon to post.
We completed the first hub today, for a proto type it is 100% functional, I`d put it on my own car right now if I could! We have some minor details to address but they are very minor imo. Teamed up with the same individual who cuts my rear Brembo park brake spacers we should be able to start offering these as they become available or by order. These hubs will be direct replacements for any brake kit using the std hub except these will use the set 3 outboard bearing, inboard bearing,dust cap and grease seal all remain stock equipment available at your corner parts store. Billet T6061 saves about 3lbs from the cast steel hub... with 54mm length studs at M12 x 1.5 with a lengthened register stronger thicker webbing on the inboard side. We have still to work on pricing but that should fall under 400 for the set I assume.
I requested the stress analysis screen shots today, so I should have those soon to post.
We completed the first hub today, for a proto type it is 100% functional, I`d put it on my own car right now if I could! We have some minor details to address but they are very minor imo. Teamed up with the same individual who cuts my rear Brembo park brake spacers we should be able to start offering these as they become available or by order. These hubs will be direct replacements for any brake kit using the std hub except these will use the set 3 outboard bearing, inboard bearing,dust cap and grease seal all remain stock equipment available at your corner parts store. Billet T6061 saves about 3lbs from the cast steel hub... with 54mm length studs at M12 x 1.5 with a lengthened register stronger thicker webbing on the inboard side. We have still to work on pricing but that should fall under 400 for the set I assume.
These rotors have more offset like a 1LE check the height measurements
heres the 3rd gen specs followed by the 2nd Gen.
We are cutting the first hub this week, finally after many set backs we are running the prototype, the tool paths have been the issues (trying to get the most efficiency and least amount of machine time) I`ll update when I have a sample, Thanks for the patience
I'd pay $400 for a set of these hubs, most especially if a set would eliminate my 1" spacers on my current BBU hubs. Is this possible? to custom order offset?
I requested the stress analysis screen shots today, so I should have those soon to post.
We completed the first hub today, for a proto type it is 100% functional, I`d put it on my own car right now if I could! We have some minor details to address but they are very minor imo. Teamed up with the same individual who cuts my rear Brembo park brake spacers we should be able to start offering these as they become available or by order. These hubs will be direct replacements for any brake kit using the std hub except these will use the set 3 outboard bearing, inboard bearing,dust cap and grease seal all remain stock equipment available at your corner parts store. Billet T6061 saves about 3lbs from the cast steel hub... with 54mm length studs at M12 x 1.5 with a lengthened register stronger thicker webbing on the inboard side. We have still to work on pricing but that should fall under 400 for the set I assume.
Its the exact same as the hub cut from the std 10.5 rotor its 3.875 tall seal flange to dust cap flange. It will replace any hub I have used in any kit except for ones using the 1LE hub (which I could probably count on my left hand the number I have done!)
Wow, 3 pounds of unsprung weight per side is a pretty significant savings.
I think its a nice weight savings and its obviously somewhat costly for that savings. I will need some test pilots for these soon!
How will you test the strength of this as compared to the stock unit....other than just putting it in a car & driving?
We are running a FEA computer simulated stress analysis on the stock hub since we know its properties and have a complete cad drawing against our version of the hub with its properties. The test will use the maximum load on the hub (we guessed at that with the entries car`s weight (3400# as in a full lock turn close to 1G) plus the rotational forces are being added in too.
I`m no cad programmer so I cannot do those myself but I`m confident that the hub is stronger than the cast steel part but we will see, and Yes we need to put them on a car that`s driven hard.
Any of you engineers want to weigh in, please do
I like the thicker hub centric part that's been one of the issues when using stock rotors milled down to hubs it most of the hubcentric "step" is used up by the rotor get me a price
What's the latest on these hubs? I don't see them on the website yet?
Good Morning guys,
Yes they are not on the site yet. Its a good news bad news situation, the bad....Learning curve. Although the mill does a decent job with these it takes too much time to produce one and if there is a hiccup along the way..bang! scrap. We have had a few hiccups, a few too many. I want a better looking part than what was being cut and it seemed that if we slowed the speed down it would produce better appearance / finish but it does not, at least not what I would like to offer. So its was about 12 hrs to make one including the finish time on a manual lathe. I have to say the machinist that is doing these also produces my spacers for the rear Brembo conversions, both he and I keep a full time job aside from this venture, so to say the least, his time is limited and if there is a hiccup, it sets things back days.
The GOOD ! The new news is good, These are now being cut on a CNC lathe that has cut a few hours out of the machining time but most importantly the accuracy is incredible and the appearance is much better. The design although appears to remain unchanged has not, we have thickened up the center of the hub even further, it picked up a few oz`s in weight, and have added race knock out reliefs.
They are still slow to come out of the shop though. We have 3 sets out on the road another set on my bench for assembly to a LS1 kit this week and one more order to fill ASAP for a customer who has been very patient.
Until I have a few sets in my back pocket these wont be on the site. If your in need of a set just email me for a ETA on a set.
12-12-2015, 04:55 PM
