92 camaro rs heritage
does anyone know what kind of flare is on the original REAR brake line out at the wheel cylinder on the drum brakes?

also what are the flares and thread size and pitch on the jumper rubber line that comes off the rear t connector on the axle and jumps too the hardline mounted near the end of the trans tunnel?

 

Remind us what year your car?
It varies by year.

 

sorry its a 92 rs

 

Hose from axle to body is M12-1.0 bubble flare if I remember right.

I don't know what is at the drum brakes. Most others are M10-1.0 bubble flare, wouldn't surprise me if it's the same. All you have to do to find out is look at the port and identify which style of flare by the shape of the sealing surfaces, and then thread some bolts in to see what kind of thread.

 

i appreciate the reply, i'm thinking of taking that rubber jumper line to a hydraulic hose shop and have them make up a steel braided version of it. just wanted to be sure of the flares and sizes first

 

There is a tutorial at the Fed Hill website how to identify bubble flare vs. SAE double inverted flare.
http://www.fedhillusa.com/

Basically bubble flare seals to the outside edge of the flared line, and the port in the brakes will have a tapered wall kind of like an AN fitting. Threads will be metric. SAE double flare seals to inside edge in the center of the flare, and the port in the brakes will have a cone in the center that sticks up like a little volcano. SAE will have inch threads.

 

I don't know why that hyperlink pasted in wrong and sent you to my build thread. I just fixed it to send you to the Fed Hill website.

 

finally got the prop valve and mount, now i just need warmer weather to make working outside bearable

 

well i got the rear line bent up and attached on the driver side, on pass rear i had to cut line and re-flare, and got the jumper line from axle tee fitting to body hard line installed.....and tomorrow when i vacuum bleed the rear lines i have ZERO FAITH any of that crap will hold together. the damn jumper line jegs sold me (that is supposed to be a direct fit replacement) does not look the same on the inside. if i had to guess it's a 45 deg inverted flare (from some of the links you guys have attached). in all likely hood i will have to buy all new line and fittings, i think i have a jumbled up mix of lines and fittings on this car.

what is the most common way people here flare a newly ran brake line set up .....npt, bbl, din, iso ....all 3/16 or mix of 3/16 and 6mm/1/4????? or better yet which connection type holds up the best to being connected and disconnected several times??

 

question...until you bed the pads and rotors on these aftermarket zinc plated rotors....is it common for them to skreech, chatter or just be really loud....i only moved the car a few feet forward and backward to see if brakes were working and damn they are annoying ???

anyone?

 

I bought my pads & rotors from rock auto, the cheaper ones and they are quiet. js

 

thanks for the reply, i'm hoping someone that has done baer brakes, or wildwood aftermarket rotors will have some insight on this. it's raining today so i don't want to risk testing on it, or trying to season the rotors until i have good traction. still have to get too a parts store for brake line tee, and line nuts too install prop valve.

 

I have wilwoods on my 82. 6 piston 13 inch front and 4 piston 12 inch rears. I used the wilwood adjustable prop valve and a 4 wheel disc master cyl for an 82. They have been pretty much silent since day one. The adjustable prop valve has been great to fine tune the rear. After bedding them in they are awesome. The car stops crazy fast and they run really cool on the street. I haven't had them on a track yet. So the only factory part brake part on my car is the booster and master cyl.

 

did you wipe down the rotors with brake cleaner before putting them into service?

 

Yeah, but they were pretty clean. I just wanted to get what little bits of grease/debris from assembly off. They weren't coated in oil like some rotors are. It was really a pretty quick wipe down.

 

ok so i replaced the master cylinder again, i suspect i got a bad remanufactured unit that was leaking internally. got the front lines on a tee fitting and routed under the steering shaft and further away from the headers, and got the rears routed through the new prop valve. again i suspect i will have leaks all over the place because i had to run a drill bit through some of the tube nuts just so they would fit on the lines (no idea why, the 6mm line did not seem like a true 6mm) i paid attention when putting on the new master and the piston seemed to become engaged somewhere between a 1/16 - 1/8 before the master was fully seated on the booster.....so i put 2 washers on each post and will try it that way to see if the preloading is eliminated. just need to pull the master back off, bench bleed it, then at all 4 wheels and give it a try...updates and pics to come

 

If you space the master cylinder away from the booster then over time dirt will accumulate around the push rod and cause drag and maybe even brakes to stick, and it also will wear the seal in the master cylinder. Not a good idea.

It was also said earlier that LT1 4th gen and LS1 4th gen parts may not be compatible with each other. Suggestion was to measure clearance between rod and plunger. There is a real tool for that.

Did you follow up further on that?

 

i spoke with someone at bear about getting a tool they had for measuring the clearance....he said the tool wasn't needed....he said "if when unscrewing the master from the booster, the master pushes away from it as you loosen nuts...then there is indeed some preload" in which case he recommended shimming it as i have. as for lt1 vs. lsi i called oreilly's and the part number never changed between 1993 and 2002 for the brake booster....that said i have been unable to verify if the push pin changed at all....one would think if the booster underwent any type of revision, they would have issued it a new part number.
as for getting debris in-between you make a good point, i can always use some weather-stripping around the joint as a dust shield as long as it doesn't get in the joint.

edit... i'm still in the trouble shooting phase, if spacing the master from the booster works, then i will probably look into machining off the material from the booster pin so i can eliminate the shims later

 

update.
after replacing the master and bleeding the crap out of the system i could not get the pedal to stiffen up, very mushy with very little braking. finally took the damn car carefully to NTB and had them vacuum bleed the system, check for vacuum leaks, and do an alignment (the alignment went fine) as for the brakes they said they got air out of the system but the pedal feel did not improve, and that they cant see anything wrong with the booster, master, any fittings or connections. he said there was good flow out the master ports and at all 4 calipers... i'm about fed up throwing money at this damn thing.
i called baer brakes and he wants me to pull the pads off one of the rear calipers and take a pic of the pistons on one side in the caliper and send it too him (some problem they had in the past where the wrong piston was utilized) but he doesn't think thats the problem, he also wants me to pull one washer shim off each of the studs between master and booster and see if that makes a difference. so i will do those 2 things tomorrow.
but in the meantime i called Oreilly's and ordered a 93 master cylinder to match the 93 booster already in the car (too eliminate that as a problem, and too eliminate the washer shims) and i also ordered a power brake bleed kit from motive products with the gm adapter package and 2 catch bottles.....because at this point i f@#@#$ loath brake bleeding. more updates to come

https://www.motiveproducts.com/colle...-power-bleeder

 

interested to see if the new parts fix the problem.... curious what the issue is

 

all i know after test driving the car yesterday is that the rear brakes are doing all the work....the front rotors stayed cold to the touch, and the rears got blistering hot.....not sure if i damaged the cup seals in the master on the primary circuit when i bench bled the master. i went in slowly on the plunger a few strokes then bottomed out the plunger.....and after looking online there is mixed info out there as to weather or not that can damage the cup seals. the new master won't be in until monday so now i'm thinking it's time for the fuel tank trap door mod while i wait. my fuel sender is dropping out intermittently so i might as well get ahead of it.

edit.. but on the test drive the creaking was almost totally gone thanks to the new sub frame connectors....she felt nice and stiff

 

If the new master doesnt fix it, i wonder if ther is something wrong / defective with the front calipers... maybe the pistons are seized or something.

 

i hope not...would be shitty if baer was sending out broken brand new calipers.....i would probably replace the front handlines next....if the new master, and power bleeding doesnt work

 

2nd day of trap door mod for fuel tank. Tank was a pain in the **** to drop...im glad when im done ill never have to do this again!!

Figuring out where to put it

Just a little trimming to the detroit speed fuel door

Making sure during cutting i dont send a shard of metal into glass and totally ruin my week

And were off to the races

My welding sucks, but i can flap disk it like no other then add more weld rinse and repeat

After grinding once, probably add more weld and grind again tomorrow....its beer thirty

 

after pulling the tires again i had wiped down all the rotors with brake clean and it helped alot, they will probably be just fine once all the rotors and pads have been bedded

 

Day 3 of trap door mod

Re-welded and reground the base, went a little crazy with the angle grinder and wire wheel, then went crazy with the rattle can rejuvinations

Filled in alot of the bad spots and re-flap disked it

Not perfect, but better than tin snipping a hole

Should be wrapped up tomorrow, but wont reassemble until new aeromotive pump/hanger assembly and braided fuel lines show up

 

last day on trap door mod, also got new front and rear poly bump stops installed.
i may glue a piece of carpet onto the center of the trap door over hanging the edge 2 inches at a later date.....but for now i'm happy with it, and if you haven't guessed....i don't even want too remove plastic panels and lift carpet out to access the fuel door in the future....i want it as easy as raising the rear hatch and unscrewing door cover


fuel tank still not back in because the braided ptfe fuel line i ordered on the 9th still has not shown up, also ordered a sheet of black silicone rubber to make a door gasket for the fuel tank trap door

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234108024971

 

also it's not definitive yet....but i very very carefully bench bled the new 93 master cylinder yesterday (never pushing the plunger in more than 3/4 too 1 inch) and installed it in the car. i gently pushed the brake pedal a couple times with the car off....it was very firm and the continuous sinking of the pedal was gone. fingers crossed but i think my front brakes not working problem is gone. still need to power bleed the whole system and try it when i can start the car.

on a side note the following table is incorrect as to the port sizes on the 93 master cylinder. i suspect it is the same for 93-97 ask me how i know.....i had to chase down a second m11 1.5 bbl too 3/8-24 adapter
both ports are m11 1.5 bbl

 

calling out to anyone that has done the 4th gen master/booster mod on their 3rd gen.....what did you do with the factory prop valve single wire harness....so you don't have a constantly on brake light on the dash???

is there a resistor that can be soldered onto that wire to trick the ecm into thinking that everything is honky dory with that electrical aspect of the braking system?

 

It is not operated by ECM, just a wire from the dash. The light bulb has +12V from Gauges fuse and it can be grounded (lights up) one of 3 ways:

1) Parking brake switch closes.
2) Brake fluid switch closes.
3) Ignition switch moves to Start position.

It's also grounded in the Ignition switch Off position, but there is no voltage from the Gauges fuse so the light does nothing in that scenario.

 

So you are saying i can just cap off the wire and i shouldnt have a brake warning light?

 

So you are saying i can just cap off the wire and i shouldnt have a brake warning light?

 

Fuel tank going back in today, more updates to come, and waiting on a new filter system from aeromotive that they claim will not kill the fuel pump like the old corvette style filter/regulator combo did

 

Regulator/filter combo just showed up...this just got interesting
part numbers in picture

This will be replacing the following pic

Out with the old

 

Not bad for eyeballing position from someone else's how too video

 

Filter/regulator installed, but have to run to jegs for a 0-100psi fuel gauge with 1/8 npt fitting too hook on to regulator in order to set the fuel pressure to 60 psi. Also need some 3/8 id rubber fuel line for vent

 

Your fuel pump trap door looks cool.

 

thanks
i know there is alot of stigma around doing this mod, but if done right i don't see it taking away value from the car, in fact it will save time and money in the future, and pay for itself the 1st time i need a new float or fuel pump.

 

I agree.
fuel pump goes out, walk to autozone and grab one and change it out on the side of the road.

 

i now have the aeromotive 340 lph pump i pulled out in the hatchback area(it was fine/fuel sender was going bad) and new hanger/sender came with a brand new one....im not even walking to autozone....lol

 

Fuel system wrapped up, brakes power bled....test drive results....front brakes now working, but now all the brakes are dragging
sitting in a parking lot waiting for my socket set and some piano washers to be delivered so i can try spacing the master from the booster again. This **** makes no sense....booster 1993, master 1993, vacuum valve 1993, baer ss4 front and rear brakes, all new rubber lines.

Got the socket set and 4 washers....as soon as i put them on the brakes released and i was able to drive home....i dont get it, and i dont like it!!

The verdict....braking at all 4 wheels now, and pedal engagement is immediate and firm....no more sloppy 3rd gen half peddal travel and rear brakes that do nothing

ps.
so if you plan to do the 4th gen booster master mod with aftermarket front and rear brakes, or 4th gen brakes just know:
1. you can use the 98-02 booster/master = fittings for front/rear port on master are the same as 90-92 camaro (some interference with aftermarket caster camber plates exist on driver side)
2. you can use 93-97 booster/master= adapters needed for lines too master (but this is the shortest setup leaving more room for caster camber plates)
3. lastly at some point these rebuild companies did something with the booster pin length that causes a preload or dragging situation (if this occurs you can fix it with 2x 1/16 piano washers on each stud in between the booster and master for a total of 4 washers altogether) .

 

Did your car have disc brakes in the rear from the factory?

 

no it had drums, but before you blame the prop valve that is a new aftermarket one from baer brakes, and the front lines dont go through it, they are t'd off and go straight from master to brakes

 

 

The way you describe your problem of your rear brakes working before your front seems to me like your metering valve is doing that. Not so much of a is it new or old but more of a it's there and it shouldn't be.

Or your adjustment valve is doing an even split instead of something like 60/40 or 70/30.

 

what i said was both front and rear brakes were dragging until i spaced the master off of the booster about an 1/8 of an inch with washers,
previous problems were due to me improperly bench bleeding the 2 previous master cylinders...and in those cases i believe i damaged the cup seals on the primary piston and that's why the rear brakes were doing all the work and pedal feel was very mushy and sinking.
The 1993 master i just got 3-4 days ago i bench bled correctly and then power bled the whole system, which then i finally had front and rear brakes, but a problem i had in the beginning of this thread came back.... (which i had initially contributed too a mismatch of parts 1993 booster, 1998 master) which was brakes dragging severely (calipers never fully releasing) unless i put a spacer between the booster and master to stop this preloading or constant line pressure.

there is no factory proportioning valve in the car anymore....if i understand the 2 articles correctly that you posted the metering valve, and the proportioning valve are both 2 parts of the combination valve....which to the layman we call it the proportioning valve or prop valve. if thats the case that assembly is no longer in the car and cant be a contributing factor. it's also my understanding that 3rd gen master cylinders had a quick take-up valve to overcome spring pressure in the rear drums....which to my understanding was phased out in the 4th gen master cylinders...which is what i'm using.....so that can't be a contributing factor as to why i have a preloading / constant line pressure in the system.


now this i have not got totally dialed in yet....the baer general purpose proportioning valve has exactly 10 3/4 turns in it's full range and i have it set on about 4 turns (i'm still playing with it.

got this from the baer website:

Adjusting the Valve: Note: All driving done during this phase should be done in a large open area away from other people and while keeping the vehicle under control at all times.
1) Turning the valve all the way counter-clockwise will make the outlet pressure approximately 57% of the inlet pressure. With the valve in the full clockwise position, the outlet pressure will be approximately 90% of the inlet pressure.

and now that i have re-read that in order to respond to that part of your comment i realize i should have only turned it maybe 2 too 2 1/2 turns to get somewhere near 65-70 percent of the front braking.

the only unknown variables for me are... is there some kind of metering valve built into the master cylinder that still makes the master start applying rear brakes first (which might contribute to this preloading) or was that possibility eliminated when i eliminated the factory prop valve?

and the second is what changed with the booster pin length in the 4th gen boosters that started causing all these problems with people doing this mod....possibly it's because of them eliminating the quick take-up valve in the 4th gen master so they just put in a longer push rod in the booster so drum brakes wouldn't release as far....who knows.

in the end i found a work around....took the car out tonight for 2 hours and didn't have any dragging brakes thanks to the spacer washers.

 

With you putting spacers in between the master and booster, isn't that going to become a potential point of deflection on the bolts? The master usually bolts flush against the booster and the rear flange is spread out across the face of the booster. But with your washers it's going to put all the contact point right at the bolts.

not trying to critic your work. Just trying to help you iron out any potential problems before they become a problem

 

^^^^ First reply to this thread. Would have saved you a lot of time, money, and frustration if you had just gotten the tool.

 

the piano washers i used pretty much cover the entire surface area of the ears that extend out across the face of the booster, and the booster pin pushes straight out into the master in affect trying to push the master straight away from it so the pressure was always on the bolts, but there is the surface area of the internal seating ring that is not making contact now and i may try to find someone with a 3d printer to make washers the size of that seating ring to correct that in the future (those washers would be self centering because of the walls of the booster as long as they touch on the outer edge)
or i might look into weather or not the booster pin is removeable without damaging the booster, and see if it can have 1/8 shaved from the front or rear of the booster pin.

as someone else pointed out the more immediate problem that might arise would be dust or dirt getting into the newly created cavity and causing pin sticking in the future...but that can be addressed too with some kind of make shift dust barrier.

and the input is appreciated it helps me think of all possible scenarios, and potential fixes for them

 

scroll back up the thread....i did reply to you