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i spoke with someone at bear about getting a tool they had for measuring the clearance....he said the tool wasn't needed....he said "if when unscrewing the master from the booster, the master pushes away from it as you loosen nuts...then there is indeed some preload" in which case he recommended shimming it as i have. as for lt1 vs. lsi i called oreilly's and the part number never changed between 1993 and 2002 for the brake booster....that said i have been unable to verify if the push pin changed at all....one would think if the booster underwent any type of revision, they would have issued it a new part number.
as for getting debris in-between you make a good point, i can always use some weather-stripping around the joint as a dust shield as long as it doesn't get in the joint.
edit... i'm still in the trouble shooting phase, if spacing the master from the booster works, then i will probably look into machining off the material from the booster pin so i can eliminate the shims later
I know, but they gave you bad advice. It happens. I've hung up on tech lines many times hoping to get someone smarter next time I call back. Sometimes tech lines are great, and sometimes it's like asking for advice at the hardware store.
I know but they gave you bad advice. It happens. I've hung up on tech lines many times hoping to get someone smarter next time I call back. Sometimes tech lines are great, and sometimes it's like asking for advice at the hardware store.
Think about what you are saying...you thought i should measure the gap between booster pin and plunger because baer recommended .05 gap, someone at baer tells me if i unscrew the nuts and the master pushes off the booster then it is preloaded.....obviously i didnt have the needed .05 gap because it did push off, furthermore when i pushed them back together i could feel and hear the plunger engaging...i got my answer without the tool.
I have no problem spending money if i need too, but i can also use deductive reasoning and common sense
Case and point
when i talked to aeromotive about my fuel system and the pump/sender/hanger assembly i had purchased from them for $450....he imediatly informed me of the problems they were seeing with the chinese knock off corvet filter/regulators killing their pumps....which i had on my car. He told me they had a solution they had just come out with for dialing in the correct fuel pressure to the fuel rail while simultaniously sending the un-needed pressure back to the tank without restriction....so i spent another $360 for that filter/regulator and fittings to protect the fuel pump.
now he could have been just trying to sell me more products, but what he was saying made sense (plus it's right on their website for the pump upfront for all to see) so i ponied up the dough
So a $50 tool would have been purchased had i not got my answer by other means
You could measure the thickness of your washers then use flat sheet metal of that same thickness. Draw a template with paper matching the back of the master. Should cover you on dust intrusion and load spread. Basically a metal brake booster shim.
You could measure the thickness of your washers then use flat sheet metal of that same thickness. Draw a template with paper matching the back of the master. Should cover you on dust intrusion and load spread. Basically a metal brake booster shim.
now that's a solution i will probably pursue....nice easy fix. i will probably go slightly thicker than the 2 washer depth i have. right now i doubt i have the .05 clearance....it's probably more like .01 right now or less
I have no problem spending money if i need too, but i can also use deductive reasoning and common sense
No, you have no idea what is the preload because you haven't measured it. And you haven't actually discovered what is the root of the problem. The problem still exists, you just put a Band-Aid on it with a hack.
No, you have no idea what is the preload because you haven't measured it. And you haven't actually discovered what is the root of the problem. The problem still exists, you just put a Band-Aid on it with a hack.
you seem aweful hung up on that measurement with a tool, you can get pissy all you want, i do have a rough idea how much the master plunger is getting preloaded because it was taken out with roughly 1/8 inch worth of washers....it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that much out. do i know what changed with the booster or the push pin during it's 4th gen run.....no, do i need too....not really. So much of what we do with modifying these cars is to find a workaround or an adaptation for a problem, i dont know why you are taking such an issue with this one. Try not to loose sleep over it....i'm not
Going back to the little push rod in the booster.......
What push rod are you using?
I heard... that 82-92 is the same 93-97 is different and 98-02 is different. (just from what i recall so not sure opn the 4th gens....)
Could it be the booster is the same for fourth gens but that rod itself is indeed different between the 93-97 and 98-02?
I heard that in order to use a 98-02 master on a thirdgen booster, you need the 4th gen pushrod... so I just grabbed a 98 pushrod for the future... its totally different from the third gen unit and not interchangeable........ i don't have a 93-97 to compare it to though, but the 98 is like a black kinda big black plastic thing vs the thirdgens cylindrical metal pushrod..... ....
.
I dont recall or know if there is a difference between the two but maybe you got the wrong one in there?...Maybe the rod you are using is too long and causing the brakes to always have some kind of pressure? That or maybe the rod part that connects to the brake pedal itself is also too long causing constant pressure at the master? Even if there is space, maybe its not enough to allow the brakes to fully release under operation? I can;t recall if you can turn the rod that connects to the booster to lengthen or shorten it..... I know on my camry there is room for adjustment.
Dragging brakes as I recall are either cause the calipers are seized, a clog in the lines not allowing fluid to "pull back" or constant pressure at the master.
-edit-
I looked up the 4th ger master on R/A
Looking at cardone CARDONE5471287
What i mean about the 98 pushrod is, looking at the gray booster in the head on picture......... is that entire round black area with the metal nipple part comes out...
Last edited by 1989karr; Jan 23, 2023 at 05:14 PM.
My settup is 93 booster and master in a 92 camaro with baer ss4 front and rear disks brakes with the baer prop valve for the rear's. I have no issues with blockage in the lines, or seized calipers.
I cant image you will have any luck putting a 4th gen pin in a third gen booster....i image it would be much easier to just change them both out to matching year 4th gen parts....but im no expert....you try it your way. The pedal rod as i recall was the same length on 3rd and 4th gen boosters (it's been 2 months since i changed it out on mine)
My settup is 93 booster and master in a 92 camaro with baer ss4 front and rear disks brakes with the baer prop valve for the rear's. I have no issues with blockage in the lines, or seized calipers.
I cant image you will have any luck putting a 4th gen pin in a third gen booster....i image it would be much easier to just change them both out to matching year 4th gen parts....but im no expert....you try it your way. The pedal rod as i recall was the same length on 3rd and 4th gen boosters (it's been 2 months since i changed it out on mine)
yeah, theres no way the 4th gen pin will fit a 3r, so im like, forget it lol
but for yours, which pin do you have? maybe you have a 93-97 master / booster and a 98-02 pin? If the pins are different.. maybe thats causing your brake dragging issue?
yeah, theres no way the 4th gen pin will fit a 3r, so im like, forget it lol
but for yours, which pin do you have? maybe you have a 93-97 master / booster and a 98-02 pin? If the pins are different.. maybe thats causing your brake dragging issue?
i just told you i have a 93 master and booster....brand new, un-tampered with....why on earth would it have a 98 booster pin in it. i am done with this issue, i found a workaround that works....the only thing i may do later is make a proper spacer for the master that makes contact all the way around the seat instead of 4 washers
i just told you i have a 93 master and booster....brand new, un-tampered with....why on earth would it have a 98 booster pin in it. i am done with this issue, i found a workaround that works....the only thing i may do later is make a proper spacer for the master that makes contact all the way around the seat instead of 4 washers
I'm trying to help...
From what I know the boosters that I get never come with the pins... so Maybe you put in the 98-02 unit in the 93-97....its cause you originally had a hodge podge of parts mixed up.
Youre not very nice to people trying to help you with your issue.
From what I know the boosters that I get never come with the pins... so Maybe you put in the 98-02 unit in the 93-97....its cause you originally had a hodge podge of parts mixed up.
Youre not very nice to people trying to help you with your issue.
unsubscribed.
apologies for being short with you, but i'd like to know where you are buying your boosters from....because in my entire life i have never bought a booster that didn't come with the pin in it. that would be like buying a master without the plunger.....they just don't do that.... not in the united states anyway...don't know if that is different in other parts of the world
"Mixing the 4th gen parts LT1 and LS1 will be problems like you are seeing, Always swap in whole assemblies guys"
ok so lets review post-> #91
You probably missed it. For final clarificarion as of post #91 i had replaced the 98 master cylinder with the 93 master....which then matched the 93 booster and vacuum valve i installed in the beginning of the thread. Now all parts are complete assemblies, And all brakes are working now. There was a small issue with dragging brakes but that was remedied with a small hack that will be made permanent later.
the only issue i have at this moment is some skreaching brakes that i will have to check pad too rotor clearances at 4 points at each caliper....if that checks out ok, then i will give the pads a light palm sanding in case i glazed the new pads the last time they dragged and got hot (suggested by rick at baer brakes) after that i will give them another 100 mile brake in period to see if they quiet. If they dont i will find organic or ceramic pad replacements.
finally got in the sway bars after waiting 2 months, no problem with install. front was about the same thickness on the bmr sway bar as what i pulled out, but the weight was definitely heavier, and the sway bar end link tabs were more substantial/ thicker
the rear sway bay was an obviously larger diameter and more stout ....the *** end feels much stiffer in the turns.
and finally pulled the trigger on the new engine 059-hp97 waiting for that too arrive
yea i think so too, only thing i don't like is the grease fitting for them....too get car up on cribs i have too take front and rear up in two stages, i would normally put a jack stand on that sway bar bracket....can't do that anymore
That was incredibly stupid. Thank goodness for the zerk fitting stopping that.
dude i don't know what your problem is, E.D, small dick, or just a general lack of getting laid....but if you can't show respect in how you talk to people, you won't receive any respect.....GFY
for the sake of future comunications.....you should have said that is not a good idea and this is why....bla bla!!!
at least that i could have respected, but i can tell from our previous conversations that you have serious control freak issues, and anyone that doesn't take your advice exactly as prescribed....immediately get ridiculed and harassed, i bet right now your looking into getting me banned from this forum....so be it, i don't back down from bullies.....EVER
dude i don't know what your problem is, E.D, small dick, or just a general lack of getting laid....but if you can't show respect in how you talk to people, you won't receive any respect.....GFY
for the sake of future comunications.....you should have said that is not a good idea and this is why....bla bla!!!
at least that i could have respected, but i can tell from our previous conversations that you have serious control freak issues, and anyone that doesn't take your advice exactly as prescribed....immediately get ridiculed and harassed, i bet right now your looking into getting me banned from this forum....so be it, i don't back down from bullies.....EVER
If somebody copied you they could lose their life with the car falling on them. That's more important than your image.
And just for the record, this is not being a bully....
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
My gut feel is there is a mechanical problem, not a hydraulic problem.
First, make sure the balance bar inside the prop valve is centered. That bar is a safety that moves to one side in an emergency situation if one of the brake lines loses pressure. It might have moved before you could finish bleeding the brakes.
Second, measure gap between rear of master cylinder and the pin inside the booster that pushes on the master cylinder. Bear recommends at least 0.005" clearance. If the parts are too close (touching) then it can cause the brakes to drag (never release) and your pedal feel would be "instant" as you described. Master Power Brakes sells a tool to help measure the gap, part number AC2003.
Third, make sure all the caliper guide pins are clean and the brakes slide freely, and the piston seal is in good shape. The only thing that pulls the pad away from the rotors is the material tension in the piston seal. It's not much force. The caliper has to be able to move freely on clean, greased guide pins for all this to work right.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
I'm not well versed on 3rd gen vs. LT1 vs. LS1 master cylinders, but there are differences in both the front and rear valving. This is probably not related at all to your problems, more of an FYI.
The 3rd gen master has a quick take-up valve on the front brakes, carry over design from earlier days when GM tried "low drag brakes" that moved the pads further away from rotor than normal. The quick take-up valve is kind of like an accelerator pump for the front brakes to quickly close the gap to the rotors when you start to push the brake pedal.
I think (but not certain) that the LT1 master cylinder has a check valve on the rear brakes. This is because of the LT1 rear caliper design where there was a lot more spring force pulling the pads away from the rotor. The check valve keeps the springs from causing the pads to release too early. I'm not sure whether the 3rd gen has this same feature or not? The '91-'92 3rd gen PBR rear calipers are basically the same as 4th gen LT1 rear calipers.
I think (but not certain) that the LS1 master cylinder does not have any of these features. No quick take-up valve, no check valve. It's just a simple master cylinder.
All told, I've heard that you should choose the master cylinder that works best with your rear brakes.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
Another FYI.... before you install powerful 4 piston calipers on the back, do yourself a favor and ditch the stock prop valve and replace with an adjustable Wilwood prop valve. If not, then you'll be changing springs until the cows come home.
Correct, front lines will be plumbed directly from master cylinder to front brakes. Front brakes receive full pressure from master cylinder. The master cylinder is tilted in our cars and the fluid reservoir mounting orientation is compensated for that. I think the Baer master cylinder wants to be level so you might have a bit of fun getting that puppy to not draw air driving uphill. Tell us how it goes, not many examples of those on this forum. Honestly, I think the LS1 master cylinder will work like a champ with your new brake package on all 4 corners. Just verify the booster pin has proper gap to the master cylinder, those things are not adjustable in our cars so you would have to shim it or shave it to make adjustments.
The prop valve goes inline to the rear brakes. Probably nothing wrong with Baer prop valve. I just know Wilwood has a wide range of adjustment and is a safe bet. The only one I've found with wider range of adjustment is a product out of the UK but I can't remember the name off top of my head and it was pretty expensive.
I know a bit of theory but am not a good mechanic. Totally different skill sets. And right now you might need the advice of a good mechanic.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
I just thought of another possible root cause. The brakes will drag if the calipers are not centered on the rotor. I can't recall what is the tolerance off top of my head though, maybe call Baer and ask them. You might have to shim the caliper with thin washers to correct the alignment.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
I guess I didn't follow your story and misunderstood the modifications you had.
If all you did was change booster and master cylinder, and
* brakes drag before even bleeding the system
* brakes feel instant before even bleeding the system
then likely something is causing constant line pressure. Chances are it's a dimensional stack-up problem, or restricted movement of the booster pin or your pedal assembly. Might be worth your while learning if there is any differences between LT1 and LS1 booster pins.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
You've got a hodge podge of parts mixed together so you have to ditch the assumptions and walk through things from top to bottom until you resolve the issue. Verify verify verify.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
If brakes improve by pumping pedal then you absolutely positively without a doubt have air in the system. Also, old rubber brake hoses expand more over time and that can make the pedal feel soft. If your brake fluid was black/brown, it might be the lining of the rubber hoses deteriorating. The hoses swell up and blockages occur that can make the brake pistons not operate correctly. This actually is a common issue with cars that still have original brake hoses.
I put gallons of fluid through my brake lines before I finally learned the art of bleeding brakes. It was super frustrating because I wasn't getting any more air but the drive told the story there was air. People develop methods that work for them, so you'll hear different advice from different people. Personally, I place a clear hose over the bleed nipple and loop it up so that fluid is always on the bleed valve (no air pocket). I also ALWAYS have pedal pressure on the system whenever the bleed valve is open. Press the pedal, crack the valve, never stop moving the pedal in downward motion, close the valve, then release the pedal. And I press the pedal at a moderately slow rate, smooth, always same pressure, never bottoming. It's a two man job. I have Russel speed bleeders at each corner and I still use this process. Only need to crack the bleed valve 1/8 turn, maybe 1/4 at most, air can come in past the threads if opened too far.
If brakes still feel like there is a bit of air but no air will bleed out, then it's probably locked up in the master cylinder. This probably isn't considered proper, but what I do is put pressure on the pedal and barely crack the fittings at the master cylinder and a bit of air will bubble out and then tighten quickly. That has done the trick for me in the past.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
The Mastercool hydraulic tool comes with a good selection of dies, but I had to buy another 37° cone to do -AN. The Eastwood rotary head tool uses same dies and is manual version. There's nothing wrong with the cheap Calvan tools either, it's more about technique than the tool.
Always oil the die, don't form a flare dry metal to metal. Don't over flare (over compress). And use brass fittings, not stainless. Stainless is too strong and requires too much torque to tighten the threads. I tried many brands of fittings trying to stop leaks and had best luck with Edelmann.
Try to only tighten tube nuts once, the flare forms to the fitting and it's more likely to have a leak if you try to do it again.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
You know, I never actually used it. My buddy borrowed it and liked it more than the hydraulic. You can call Eastwood and probably tell you what it can and can't do.
Stainless tubing is hard stuff. You'll need stainless fittings with that in order to reach the torque levels needed to make a seal to the flare. And the metal cracks if you move it too much. Stainless is not easy to work with.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
Remind us what year your car?
It varies by year.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
Hose from axle to body is M12-1.0 bubble flare if I remember right.
I don't know what is at the drum brakes. Most others are M10-1.0 bubble flare, wouldn't surprise me if it's the same. All you have to do to find out is look at the port and identify which style of flare by the shape of the sealing surfaces, and then thread some bolts in to see what kind of thread.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
There is a tutorial at the Fed Hill website how to identify bubble flare vs. SAE double inverted flare. http://www.fedhillusa.com/
Basically bubble flare seals to the outside edge of the flared line, and the port in the brakes will have a tapered wall kind of like an AN fitting. Threads will be metric. SAE double flare seals to inside edge in the center of the flare, and the port in the brakes will have a cone in the center that sticks up like a little volcano. SAE will have inch threads.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
I don't know why that hyperlink pasted in wrong and sent you to my build thread. I just fixed it to send you to the Fed Hill website.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
If you space the master cylinder away from the booster then over time dirt will accumulate around the push rod and cause drag and maybe even brakes to stick, and it also will wear the seal in the master cylinder. Not a good idea.
It was also said earlier that LT1 4th gen and LS1 4th gen parts may not be compatible with each other. Suggestion was to measure clearance between rod and plunger. There is a real tool for that.
Did you follow up further on that?
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
It is not operated by ECM, just a wire from the dash. The light bulb has +12V from Gauges fuse and it can be grounded (lights up) one of 3 ways:
It's also grounded in the Ignition switch Off position, but there is no voltage from the Gauges fuse so the light does nothing in that scenario.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
^^^^ First reply to this thread. Would have saved you a lot of time, money, and frustration if you had just gotten the tool.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
I know, but they gave you bad advice. It happens. I've hung up on tech lines many times hoping to get someone smarter next time I call back. Sometimes tech lines are great, and sometimes it's like asking for advice at the hardware store.
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
No, you have no idea what is the preload because you haven't measured it. And you haven't actually discovered what is the root of the problem. The problem still exists, you just put a Band-Aid on it with a hack.
If somebody copied you they could lose their life with the car falling on them. That's more important than your image.
first off i said:
"too get car up on cribs i have too take front and rear up in two stages, i would normally put a jack stand on that sway bar bracket"
at no point did i say i work under the car at this point......
step 1: I jack the front of car half way to crib height then place the 1st 2 jack stands.....
step 2: I jack the rear of car half way to crib height with floor jack on pumpkin, then place 2nd set of jack stands on the half moon shaped steel retainer plates holding the poly sway bar bushings surrounding the solid steel sway bar ....that just so happens to be the exact shape of the curve on the jack stand head.(making it near impossible to slip off to the front or rear)
step 3: move floor jack to front raise until cribs are under tires.
step 4: move back to rear and jack again on pumpkin housing until rear cribs are safely under tires.
then and only then will i work under the car.
second off:
that sway bar retainer steel plate with the hard bushing underneath wrapped around the solid steel bar at the core would probably take more than 2000lbs before it collapsed even a little bit.....which is more than the *** end of the car even weighs
and if you keep nagging about a point that was explained, refusing to let it go then that is harassment, and when you insinuate someone's incredibly stupid that falls under bullying.
ps. and when you inevitably respond to this post......and i know you will.....there you have the control freak, the need to have the last word.....go ahead i'll wait
Bro, chillax a bit. People are just trying to help and you are doing the exact thing that you are accusing them of. Be cordial folks. Qwk has an incredible perspective on these cars and high automotive acumen. It looks like he is just trying to help.
I feel it's one of those things. If you jacked up a car from your swaybar bushing clamp and it broke off from that. Then something was wrong with it anyway. Jack's and jackstands can slip on anything you put them on in the right circumstances. Even the correct lift points. The differential pumpkin isn't the best place to lift a car from but if you try and lift a car with stiff suspension from a left rear lift point and the whole car starts coming up then I would say that pumpkin would be much safer to lift from.
you can nit pick crap about how anyone does anything if you're trying to. I'm pretty sure if you wipe your butt with more than 3 squares then you are just a wasteful person that hates the environment. But i keep that crap to myself because its not my place to tell you that you're doing things wrong.
Bro, chillax a bit. People are just trying to help and you are doing the exact thing that you are accusing them of. Be cordial folks. Qwk has an incredible perspective on these cars and high automotive acumen. It looks like he is just trying to help.
apologies to everyone else, trust me i would rather be sharing my build than getting into a pissing match. i'm more than willing to hold my tongue and be civil....IF HE IS
you can nit pick crap about how anyone does anything if you're trying to. I'm pretty sure if you wipe your butt with more than 3 squares then you are just a wasteful person that hates the environment. But i keep that crap to myself because its not my place to tell you that you're doing things wrong.
AGREED, i honestly don't mind constructive criticism....if it is delivered in a constructive and respectful way, but if it lands like a sucker punch or an attack....it's in my nature to be all in.
I'm pretty sure if you wipe your butt with more than 3 squares then you are just a wasteful person that hates the environment. But i keep that crap to myself because its not my place to tell you that you're doing things wrong.
It's all fun and games until someone pokes a finger through the toilet paper.
while i'm not looking forward to doing the engine change due to how crammed in that 5.3 motor is, i am looking forward to the final results. waiting on another shipment from jeg's and i have to pick up misc stuff from orielly's and harbor freight, then let the fun begin
going to error on the side of caution after closer examination of the engine crate and send this one back. it appears the engine was knocked over onto its front creating an impact indention on the inside of the crate from the crank shaft snout, hard enough to bust the outer board off. while i doubt it hurt the internals i don't think it's worth the risk.
engine swap underway. got off to a slow start because i lowered the wheel cribs one level so car wasn't so high up in the air. got all fluids drained and got most of the front of the engine disassembled.
I say lock the thread, engine swap has no place in the brake section, start a new thread
not done with the brakes quite yet, just taking a break....letting a little time pass before i hit Steve back up at baer brakes, put about 200 miles on them and they still screech like a transit bus up front. might go to the standard rotors and send this slotted drilled garbage back to them.
My buddy borrowed it and liked it more than the hydraulic. You can call Eastwood and probably tell you what it can and can't do.
