I just purchased a Hifonics 1605D that runs 1600 watts RMS, and I've also got a 640 Watt RMS Autotek 4160.

I currently have a 4AWG power wire running to the rear.

I think I should go with 2AWG or larger diameter wire for power and ground, and at least a 180 amp fuse at the battery...

what do you guys think? (assuming I'm gonna use all the power I've got)

Should I also get a 2 Farad capacitor, or two separate 1 Farad capacitors, or none at all?

I have an optima yellowtop in the front of the car.

Thanks, and I have a friend with a large supply of 1-2AWG welding cable that I will use if I need to.

Steve

 

Since you already have 4 awg I would just run one more 4 awg. Its would probably be able to fit easier than running the bigger wire. If your set on using one wire go with atleast 0 gauge.

 

single wire is my choice...

two 4AWG would be too large for the grommet.

 

your new hifonics amp isnt going to actually push 1600 watts. you know that right?

your fine with the 4 awg wire.

 

what do you think it is going to push?

 

well as most of you fellas know. i run a 1000watt hifonics amp. im pretty much redoing my entire stereo system to get ready for a competition up here on the 24th. ill know by tuesday what exactly that amplifier with be pushing. i know if my holds a consistant 13.5 volts to the amplifier (which it does) running two 10's. the most that amp at 1ohm is going to be able to push is 820 watts. i'll know and have a for sure estimate of what the hifonics amplifiers can do by tuesday when i install and redo my system.

also theres a coupld kids up here that run those amps that are going to be entered in the stereo comp on the 24th. they are going to get there ***' handed to them by my friends at western electronics.

honestly hifonics isnt a really good amplifier. its an amp that doesnt suck by all means, but, overall unless your paaying $1 per watt on the amplifier your not really getting your money worth. say my 1000watt hifonics amp. it says it can push that, but in reality i garantee it will push no more than 850 at its absolute best. now say if you run a JL audio 500/1 amplifier. i have seen and hooked it up to my car itself but and blow 60amp fuses ALL DAY LONG. which means that the 500/1 amplifier pushes continuiously over 600 watts. (even though it says its only 500)

 

You logic makes no sense. While I'm not about to debate what kind of power any of the above mentioned amps will put out but the the "atleast $1 per watt" concept is rediculous. There are plenty of amps out there that will put out their rated power cleanly for far less than $1 a watt. Im not saying the higher priced amps are a rip off or that not worth the money but in most of those amps you do pay a considerable amount more just for the name.

Also on your amp thats putting out 850 watts due to the fact that its not 100% effcient (its probably more like 70%) that would give you a potential to draw 80+ amps for just that one amp alone assuming that the gains have been set using an oscope and there is no clipping which could lead to power spikes. Based on this and the fact that the wire run is probably 16-20 ft you would need atleast 2awg just for the one amp alone to safely power it assuming that it was ran at full tilt all the time. For his amp it has dual 80 amp fuses which is usually a good indicator of the amount of power it consumes. Techinally he should use 00 gauge but who really runs around listening to their stereo for extened amounts of time at full tilt with that much power. Plus he has another amp to power.

Scrapmaker i wouldn't waste the money on a cap. If you have problems look into upgrading your alt and underhood wireing and if that doesn't help then look into a second batt.

 

I know an electrician and over-all electrical/electronical guru... and he thinks I should have a capacitor...

what I want to know is what can I damage by not having an amp? just the alternator, right? because I have a lifetime warranty

if you have a big enough wire to the battery, I don't see why you would need a cap....

and ryan, the hifonics have a MAX rating, and an RMS rating... both are rated at 14.4 volts...

I believe the RMS rating at 14.4 is valid, otherwise why would they need 2x80 amp fuses?

I think 820 watts is a bit low... I'd say 1500+ hopefully

 

your 1605 is obviously bigger than my 1000. your amp has a set-up with two 80amp fuses in it correct? as like mine only has one. hifonics amps are rated at a 14.4 volts consistantly, but unless you have some major power supplies its hard to keep that voltage that high with your subs going. as i said, i run 2 batteries and one cap and i still can only AVERAGE a 13.5 with my subs going.

9177 yeah i guess your right. there are a couple amps that can put out close to what they say for less than $1 per watt. BUT if your going to SQL theres not a chance. you may get spl rating for a cheaper amp but your sound quality is not going to be as high. and i mean, ive hooked up a JL audio 500/1(500watts obviosuly) amp to my subs and it completely blew away the hifoncs 1000watt(1000watt at 1ohm stable which it is set at) amp that im running right now. theres absolutely no comparison to those two amps. the JL rapes the crap outta that hifonics amp.

 

seems to me that you would get higher SQ if you had a bigger amp, and you used less of it...

for example I am running the 1605D in 2ohm mode, so I will be drawing 1100 watts (for now.)

seems like I'd have a cleaner sound output.

 

also, the 1605D is the new 2005 series... maybe they are a tad different internally?

the 1000D is like 3 years old, or more... I just remember seeing them all over the internet for years. (with excellent reviews I might add)

I bet the hifonics BX1000D kicks the snot out of the RF1000D or whatever the model # is.

 

You DO NOT go by ‘watts’ to fined the proper wire gage. You go by max current draw. You said the one amp has two 80 amp fuse. What size fuse is in the other amp?

 

with an amp like that you should go with 0gauge thats what i ran on my 1200.1

 

okay. let me put this in another word terminology. My BX-1000D amplifier (2004 model) comes out of the factory with a 60 amp fuse in it. i asked around a local dealership that sells hifonics and they told me that amp should come with an 80 amp fuse.

now, lets go back to your amp for a second here. your amplifier has two 80 amp fuses in it. And you want this amplifier to put out 1600 watts RMS. As i said before your amp will NOT do that. lets with with say you run a 13.5 consistant voltage like i do. IF you have two 80 amp fuses and running your stereo, if you do NOT blow your fuses. your obviously not pulling 80 amps of current draw, therefor NOT RMS'ing 1600watts. lets say you drop your fuses down to 50 amp fuses both the outlets. So now your running two 50 amp fuses. Now lets go with if you have your stereo on and loud again and you blow your fuses. THEN, AND ONLY THEN, you actually know your amplifier is pushing out consistantly more than 1000 watts.

you get my drift here?


And like i said in my first post. i will know by Tuesday of this coming week exactly how many watts my BX-1000D (2004 model) amplifier can push. even though it claims to be 1000 watts at 1ohm, i GARANTEE its not going to do that.

 

NEEDAZ, I know you don't go by wattage

claimed RMS power @ 14.4:

1600RMS 80x2 fuse

640RMS 40x1

I generously assume that the amps are 90% efficient... which they aren't.

I went through this whole thing assuming I'm using a 200 amp current draw.

I decided to go with 1AWG because I got it for free.

 

With a pair of 80 amp fuses, and another amp all using the same line, 0 AWG is the minimum you should be running. If that hifonics can really draw 160 amps (I'm highly skeptical), then you need some serious wire.

If you got the 1 AWG for free, double it up and run dual lines.

 

is there any truth to this? my electrician friend seems to think that I'll be fine with 1AWG... but I guess I'll find out in a little bit... man I'd really hate to have to re-run more wire... especially a second wire, I'd just go find some double aut or somethingwire guages

 

the more I think about it (I've had coffee since I posted this morning ), I think I'm going to reconsider what I said.

with a 200 amp draw, 1 AWG will only cause about a 0.4 volt drop between the battery and the amp. I think you can get away with it. it's not like you'll EVER push that much current without a retardedly expensive alternator anyway.

 

how much instantaneous amperage can something draw straight from the battery?

it claims 650 CCA... does that not mean I can't pull at least that much from the battery terminals?

guess I'm missing something here.

 

A battery can supply large amounts of current for brief times, but the voltage drops considerably when it does it.

 

and a capacitor does not really help much with that problem?

 

Yes, a capacitor will help, but a capacitor isn't going to let you pull 160 amps from a 100 amp alternator. It will help prevent the voltage from dropping during bass transients.

 

well if you have a 105 amp alternator, you should easily be able to draw another 100 amps from the battery...

I mean, what's the point in having a big battery if it does no good?

 

A battery can not provide the power instantaneously like a cap can. A battery "ramps up" to the output level. Otherwise, nobody would use caps.

A battery can provide additional current, but not fast enough to satisfy an amplifier that's trying to amplify a bass note. Furthermore, the voltage dips severly when your charging system is trying to provide power, which is why people's lights dim with the bass.

 

what I can't figure out is why does everyone on here keep recommending to everyone else to NOT use capacitors?? In my mind, a cap seems like a necessity... but I am not an electrician...

 

-20 gauge wire

 

20? that's kinda big, I was thinking more like 50AWG... but thanks for the input...

 

oh yeah... mmm rims.... tasty

 

lol "negative 20" i was just playing. whose rims

 

Pretty sure he meant the one in your avitar

Most people around here are against caps because they view them as a band-aid; they would rather buy a bigger alternator than a cap. It does make sense considering that a cap will still eventually let your system run down even if it’s charging. After all, if the cap is needed at all, that means you’re pulling more current than your charging system can provide so you’re going to still run the battery dry eventually. A bigger alternator is the ‘right way to fix it’.

 

you're assuming you're playing a constant deep bass note for a lengthy period of time...

a capacitor is used to provide instantaneous power for short periods of time, and then recharge itself very rapidly for the next 'hit' of bass... I doubt it can do much for a constant bass note of 30hz or what not.

Say your subs are playing at 50db for a whole second, then a 120db bass spike comes through the amp for .25 seconds... the capacitor is there to provide roughly that amount of power to the amp... then when you go back to the 50db of bass for the next whole second, the cap quickly charges back up and is waiting for the next 120db bass hit....

Someone slap me with a large trout if I'm way off... but I've almost gotten in a fist fight with my electrician friend over caps on car audio systems... he has several caps in his car...

 

I think of the capacitor in a car audio system like a buffer... as long as you don't drain the cap all the way on a deep bass note, you will have a strong continuous amount of power to the amp... but once you drain the cap, which is easy to do on a deep bass 'note', not just a 'hit', then you are back to the car's electrical system...

 

Caps are only good for a system who’s electrical system is up to par already as in no light dimming. The cap will help stabilize the voltage but you should think of it as another amp instead of a battery as it needs power to work also. To often people will buy a big amp use it on their stock electrical system and get light dimming and just get a cap to try and fix it. The problem is even if it does help or fix the light dimming problem it doesn’t relive the strain on the electrical system.

 

actually i'v heard people using a cap and seen results in no dimming/little to none

 

the lights dim because you are pulling to much instantaneous power from the battery/alternator, and the voltage drops, like Jim said.. the only way to solve that is to have a cap... but if you play a long enough bass note, a cap will do absolutely nothing for you...

but in short bass sequences, a cap will help... at least I think it will..

 

A capacitor will give you quick bursts of power that a battery or alternator cannot produce. As you crank the volume on your stereo the electrical system cannot keep up. Your bass will get "loose" as you pound it. Some amp manufacturers say you don't need caps with their amps because they are built better (Orion said that with their HCCA)

Think of how a camera flash works to visualize how a capacitor works. Cameras use a capacitor to store the charge for the flash.

 

so then it makes perfect since to have one on an amplifier, because most music is a bunch of bass hits..

on songs where its just deep, enlongated bass... a cap won't do much there.

 

***!!! just get a 140 +amp and call it a day!!!

 

It basically comes down to capacitors can help on small electrical problems.

Myth is that most people think a capacitor is just as good as a battery. Thus by adding enough capacitors it will increase there electrical system's potential.

Other myth is people believe if you have an electrical drain problem just add more batteries to compensate. The local audio shop recommends people who get large amps installed to get an extra if not 3 more wet batteries installed in there trunk. Which in turn I've heard horror stories of them actually leaking acid out...etc.

The fact of the matter is you can add a crap load of batteries and caps but if you're only making 105 amp highway output off the alternator and pulling way over that to electronics in the car all the time the batteries are going to get low eventually. Heck even guys with larger aftermarket alternators say they still can't just idle and play at max forever without getting into drainage problems.

If it's a serious drain make sure the wires are up to par, consider adding an alternator, and a capacitor if you want. Nice things about the digital top capacitors are the voltage readout at the amplifers.

My setup uses a 105 amp factory replacement alternator overdriven with a wet battery under the hood and a yellow top by the amps linked with a 0 awg on an isolator (car sits a lot). Then 4 awg running to my caps (1.0 farad each) then 4 awg off that into my amps (2 BP1200.1s). I can pull both batteries down to 12 volts or lower with the car running at 1500+ idles without trying to play the system that loud in acouple minutes. Next step for me is to get an amputator alternator from Iraggi. The one I was looking at puts out 260 amps on the highway and 155 at idle.

 

if you ask me, the idle output is the ONLY thing that is important.

 

Depends on the motor setup. My new motor will be a solid roller so it will not beable to keep at idle speeds for very long. Comp Cams actually recommends I rev it up to 3000 rpms once every 2 minutes or so to get oil pressure built back up in the heads. Not to mention they say I'll have to set the idle at 1000 to 1200 rpms due to the large cam.

Iraggi makes a smaller amputator model that puts out 200 amps max but you get 175 amps at idle.

 

that's the one I would get...

are these things an arm and a leg, and do they just bolt-on for us?

 

According to Dom: yes the 200 is a direct bolt in, but the 220 to 300 amp is a large case sytle, so it may or may not fit without a little modifications. At least that what he told me when I emailed him about it.

I would highly recommend you check out the GP board I had a post there earlier this month about a GP on Iraggi Alternators. You should beable to save at least 15% now on the cost of one. This deal is only good in April and will close at the end of this month. I think they got some bad press earlier this year or late last year. From what I've heard business has slowed down for them a lot so that's the reason why their offering the GP.

Also for another $100 you can get a lifetime warranty on the amputator series. From what I understand it has a 12 month defective free warranty, then if it goes bad after the 12 months you'll get one free replacement for life. If it happens to go bad after you already used your free replacement it's shipping cost and a $100 fee to have it replaced. But considering the prices I would call it worth the $100.

 

So maybe you guys can help with a minor related problem:

When I start the car cold, the stock voltmeter on the dash tells me I'm running at somewhere over 14V.
After driving for a while with only my fog lights on and the music at a reasonable volume, the voltage will drop into the 13's. My amps have a total of 65 amps worth of fuses, and so we're talking at most 40% total music capacity when I say "reasonable volume."
Last night I was driving around (with the headlights on, of course) and was waiting in the drive-thru, and after about a minute, the voltage slowly dropped below 12, the music was at maybe 30%. I turned the stereo off, and this didn't really improve anything. With the engine warmed up, the idle drops to around 500. As far as I could tell from their projection on the car in front of me, my headlights weren't noticeably dim. I'm running aftermarket headlights, but they were installed well before I noticed this problem, and they aren't really all that special.
I also notice a slight drop when I roll down the windows (electric).
The voltage returns to 13V with rpms above 1000 even under full stress (which makes sense because the alternator is providing all the current at this point), but never back above 14V unless I restart the car after letting it sit for a while.
The current alternator (stock 105 amp) is less than a year old, and the one before that lasted for about 5 years.
Even with the lower voltage (below 13), the headlights don't dim when the bass hits, unless I'm running everything at near full capacity with all my lights on (which I expect since my amps max out at 650W total).

I'm thinking one of three things:
1. The battery isn't keeping its charge under any stress, and should be replaced (I can't remember how old it is).
2. The voltmeter on the car isn't working.
3. The new alternator is bad already (the last time the alternator went bad, I could hear it - so I don't think this is the case).

 

For reference....

I have a brand new 105amp, brand new yellowtop battery, and good alternator connections,

When you first start the car, it's trying to charge your battery back up to 13.5 volts, that's why you read 14.4 sometimes.

After my car is warmed up, at idle, it rests pretty much exactly at 13.5 volts... 13-13.7 with nothing on

-with just fogs on = 13.5v
-with fogs and headlights = 13.5v
-with fogs, hl, and engine fan = 12.5 and lower (the alternator just cannot output this amount of current, so the battery slowly starts draining.
-fogs, hl, fan, AC&blower, wipers = 11.5v

if I sit at a stop light for a while at the 11.5v, when I take off, my voltage will sometimes peak back in the 14's... to recharge a little.

sounds to me like you have nothing to worry about, but you could always get a new pulley, so that at 500-600rpm, it's the equivelant as 1000rpm now...

only problem is, how long does an alt last in this setup?

let's say the stock alt turns at the same rpm as the motor... so we have 500rpm at idle... so a new pulley gives the alternator an effective 1000rpm at idle...

now imagine when you gun it, and you get your revs up towards 5,500rpms... now the alternator is seeing 11,000rpms!!

it' won't last

/get a lifetime warranty from autozone

 

The last alternator I put in has a lifetime warranty, so I'm in good shape with that, but I'd rather it not cr*p out on me.
It's probably the addition of the a/c that has made the difference this spring. I typically don't use the heat in the winter, at least not once the car gets warmed up, so that's probably why I haven't noticed it.
Even still, it makes me feel a little better. I won't be changing the pulley - I'll just have to live with quieting the stereo when I'm cruising at night and I have to stop.

 

why do you have to quiet the stereo? does your lighting waver with the bass?

 

Only if I have all kinds of stuff on (lights, a/c) and I'm playing the stereo at max volume - the lights dim (not a lot, but enough for me to notice) when the bass hits (only for some songs) if I'm idling at 500 rpm. I expect it to do that.

 

just as a point of reference.

just because your amp can use 80 amps, and you're listening to it at .5 volume, doesn't mean it's only using .5 of it's total power consumption.

most amplifiers are less efficient at lower volumes.

 

good point.... it's pretty hard to tell how much you're really drawing...

unless you have an in-line meter.