I finally got around to doing this. I bought a set of the performance sound sailpanel boxes and dremaled the crap out of the hole to put a set of 5.25 Pyramid W54 midbass speakers in it to use as my subs. It turned out pretty good. I need to find a set of speakers that go lower though. These go down to 60hz. I found some that go to like 30hz. But they cost alot. These get me by. It's atleast better then the stock ones that had all the foam missing. lol. The amp is just one I had laying around. I plan on getting some alpine ones. Anyways. What I like about this setup is I still have all the use of the hatch area for stuff, since this is a daliy driver. Plus I still have my little cubbyhole on the drivers side and the spare tire spot on the passenger side(which might find a bottle in there sometime. lol). I mounted the amp somewhat under the passsenger set with the xm tuner box. The amp is pretty big so it takes some of the foot space away from anyone that would ever sit there. I plan on getting an amp that's smaller in power and size to fit everything better. So here's the pictures. Adam :-)


I still have the stock 4x6's in there till I can get somthing better. The passenger one broke in half during ship. Even though it was packed like it was glass. I just opted to keep it and made the little metal plates.




The amp is way over kill for this speakers. The speakers handle 300 watts max. But this was the only amp I had laying around so it will work in the mean time.

 

Nice idea, but getting speakers that "go" to 30hz isn't necessarily going to help anything unless your enclosure is properly tuned.

No speaker that small will ever produce a usable 30hz tone in free-air or in a sealed enclosure. There are a couple speakers that I can think of that may do a semi-respectable job in a properly tuned ported enclosure, but that enclosure tuning will be critical. These speakers will also have a grossly low sensitivity, so it will take a LOT of power to get them loud, but you can only fit so much voice coil into a 5" speaker, so power handling will be too low to accomodate a high powered amp.

This is the only driver that I'd recommend for such an application:
Parts Express: TANG BAND W5-1138SG 5-1/4" NEODYMIUM SUBWOOFER

This driver will perform best in a .45 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 37hz, which will require a 2" diameter port that's a hair over 12" long. I doubt you'll be able to work the factory "enclosures" to accomodate that, but you could 'glass an enclosure that would work.

This sort of setup would probably provide a nice bottom-end fill at stock type of volume levels, but I highly doubt they'll compete with even a single 10" sub.

 

Those look like serious little guys. lol. How can I findout the cubic foot of these enclosures. It dose have a port in it that's between 1-2 inch big and about 12 inches long. It also has the poylo fill in it. Dosen't that stuff trick the speaker into making it think the box is bigger. The thing is I really don't like all that car rattling bass. The car rattles enough as it is. lol. I just like a good thump when my Dave Matthews band cd kicks in. my brother has 2 12's in his car and it is just way to boomy. I like the tight quick thump bass. I do listen to it loud though. Windows down, t-tops off, exhuast and 80mph don't allow for low volume levels. The subs I have know work pretty good with the volume at about 22. But it's the old crappy speakers that are now blown in the dash that limit the sound level. I could use just a little more thump though. Adam :-)

 

To figure out the approximate enclosure volume, you've got to do a little geometry. Divide the enclosure into managable rectangles and triangles, and dust the cobwebs off your high school education to determine the volume of the individual areas.

I can tell you for sure that the enclosure volume is too small, and the port tuning is too high of a frequency in those factory units to be of much value in a true "subwoofer" project. Not only that, but the plastic is way too thin and flimsy to provide clean sound. It'll vibrate like that's it's job.

Having stuff rattle is a fact of life if you bring bass into an 80s car. There's no way to get good bass without having rattles come along for the ride. The answer here isn't to comprimise on the bass, but find the source of the rattles and fix that problem. Dynamat, felt washers, and simply retightening your interior screws will eliminate any rattles that your bass causes. It'll also give you a more pleasant driving experience because the interior will be quiter and block more road noise.

 

I suck at math so I'll just take your word for it. lol. Well what would work good for the kind of bass I like. I don't want it over powering. I just want my systm to sound clean. I guess I would have to sacrific one of the 1/4's huh. Thanks again jim for being really helpful! Adam :-)

 

WinISD recommends .22 cubes for the woofer. Why not wrap that whole thing in sound deadening mat and try it out? Not only will that seal off the baby ports (it’s funny that they it even has them imo) but it will also strengthen the enclosure a little bit.

From sitting here and guessing I just plugged in a 5x5x12 box, which is .17 cubes, pretty close to .22 and doesn’t shift the frequency response of the driver that much while yielding a QTC of .76. Don’t expect these to play low – F3 is @ 65 Hz – but they will do pretty well as midbass speakers. I'm not sure how loudly they will be able to play.

 

The F3 on those tangbands in a sealed .22 is 65hz??? Wow. That's quite a bit deeper than I thought it would be.

 

If you think it would be better then the ones I am using now. I'll try it. I'm still a little lost in what you guys are saying. But from what I can get at is, if the smaller the box is the more the frequency moves up if the speaker is soupose to be in a bigger box. Right. So even though the specs on the speakers I am using say the low is 65hz. It could be really playing at 100hz, because of the small box I am using. Right. Also if you think they would sound better with a sealed box. I can take the tube out and cover it in the mat stuff like you said. That would give me more cubes also. Right. Also dosen't that poyly fill stuff trick the speaker into thinking that the box is bigger. I think I might take the box out tomorrow and get the mesurments of it so we can be sure of what we are working with. Thanks again guys for the help!!! I know it's painful but I am actualy learning. lol. Adam :-)

 

looks cool dude

 

In the end, forget all the fancy equations and plug them in and fire it up and see how they sound for yourself.You will fairly quickly get an idea of what they will and won't do.With some additional tweaking and tuning and adjusting of other components in the system they may do just what you need them to do.

 

That's my problem. I don't know how to tune and adjust things. I just bolt speakers in and wire them up. I don't even know if the amp is tuned right. I adjusted the **** till it sounded good. Adam :-)

 

where can i get a set of those sail panel boxes...what do they come sized for?

 

They're a factory option called "performance sound". They're basically worthless IMO as you're better off building an enclosure of your own and using a bigger driver (6.5” or 8”).

 

hrm the 6.5" subs in my monsoon system can play pretty low... I'd say they easily do the 30-40hz range... they seems to crap out on the higher, 'punchy' stuff...

it seems that, with that "ported enclosure" that you showed in the pictures, that you could get some decent bass reproduction... especially considering that my car has none of that at all... the best I can think of, is that MAYBE they did a decent job sealing off the sail location...

but I can't wait to get the eD Eu-700s

 

Well from listening to them for awhile now. They don't sound all that great. But there 100x better then what I had. I think I'm going to try what Gummie said to try with the speakers Jim mentioned. If I remember right the sealed box's gave a little more punch. So i'll try it. I don't think it will be much worse. Adam :-)

 

change out those 4x6's also.If they are originals...yikes...anything else you do won't matter unless you put some new decent 4x6's in the dash and the little ones in the subwoofer boxes.

 

I recommend the kappa 4x6 plates up front, and in the rear, I would probably avoid them and go for some true 4x6s... if you want more bass... because the kappa plates have none....

if you pull everything and go with 6x9s, you'll get more bass, but it will rattle everything from the doorjambs to the plastic on the top of your doors... plus all the plastic around the 6x9 area... really a pain in the ***... that's why a separate sealed enclosure might work much better.

 

Man id love to make a fibreglass copy of those lil sub boxes except incl the 4x6 area then put some good Mid-Woofer in there like ED EU-700 or something good.

 

People mistake 70-80hz output for "deep bass" all the time, especially when a manufacturer is smart enough to choose a driver with a ton of 2nd harmonic distortion. A woofer that has a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion will fool you into thinking you're getting a lot of deep bass, when in fact, it's basically making it's own from the higher frequency content. In other words, what you're hearing may sound pleasant and convincing, but in fact, may not have any relation to what the music is really supposed to sound like. This is the same trick that Bose has been using for years in their home systems. You think you're getting all this deep bass from their stuff, but after you really listen for a while, you start to realize that the sound is very artificial and generic sounding, and that's because you're hearing a bunch of 2nd harmonic output generated from the 70-100hz range of signals.

 

I was going to say Bose until you beat me to it. I was bored/wandering around BB/CC a few days ago while one of my friends played with digital cameras and I listened to their Bose demo system. It's amazing how bland that system sounded to me. Couldn't play low to save its life and high frequency sound just didn’t sound very clear. I would love to see the internals of their ‘sub’ and see a cover ripped off one of the satellites. Talk about a lot of hype and marketing.

Have you seen any of the minisystems out nowadays? Bling Bling? At first I was happy to see a brand like Klipsch selling stuff at BB but now they’ve downgraded everything and created a new low end line. No more nice Reference Series speakers clad with anodized aluminum cones and amazing horn tweeters, we’re talking Synergy Series plastic now baby. I think they’re also using a crappier tweeter. Sounds nothing like their ‘good’ stuff.

I also have a few stories to tell about my friend that works in their car audio department. Had no idea what a flat cone was (but he did pretend to and did it very poorly), let alone know terms like Xmas, etc. It was amusing

 

heh duh, everyone knows Xmas is the Dec 25!!!

Xmax? heh.

anyways, my deck has an eq that can adjust 40hz, 100hz, 250hz etc

I'd say the 40hz is pretty convincing... obviously I can't crank the 40, or I get distortion that would blow apart the subs in seconds, but in the right songs, at the right volume, it's pretty deep... it will rattle the rearview mirror to where I can't see out of it...

and I'm not saying that it's necessarily 40hz, but from my experience with having tons of different subs in my cars, I'd say it's pretty close... but you could be right about some 'trickery'... hard to say...

it's also hard to tell if the trickery happens at the deck, or if it's just the capabilities of the woofer... but people replace the woofers with EU-700s and are pleasantly surprised... so there are definitely woofers this small that can perform well...

 

BINGO we have a winner. That's what this setup is doing right now. It sounded like good bass at first. But after awhile it sounds blah. Adam :-)

 

at very least, you could use these woofers for some good mid-bass

 

I get so annoyed when people are like "my 15's are louder than your 10's because they're 15's". Most people have no idea what excursion is, only that their subs 'bump' when they turn it up. They only care about speaker diameter and their 1,000 watt sony amps. They automatically assume bigger speakers are always louder.

All that really matters in terms of output is how much air you can displace. You can displace air through both excursion (Xmas for 'linear' excursion and Xsus/Xmag for when you're really throwing the cone around) and piston area (SD). A speaker is just a piston that moves air when you get down to it. It's not this simple if you care about sound quality but this is all that's required to get loud, which is what most kids seem to care about anyway. I hate trying to talk to them; logic doesn’t seem to be a big priority and they’re too addicted to 12’s and 18’s that sound way deeper than 8’s/10’s.

Information, how to interpret t/s, etc - Speaker

Not saying that 15/18’s can’t get loud by any means, just saying that most stuff sold at retailers = junk and most people that but it usually don’t know what they’re getting into.

 

I lookin' to get my hands on two 12" Brahmas myself...

 

Half of what you said I didn't even understand. lol. All I want is a clean sounding system. My brother has 2 12's in his car and it's nothing but thump. I don't want that. Adam :-)

 

just depends on what brand you go with... my PPI 15" subs had plenty of clarity, while at the same time, able to pound the crap out of my firebird...

then you can go out and get the kicker CVR comps and you'll instantly start hating techno...

my friend used to only listen to techno and rock...

now he listens to a lot of rap, and still rock... but the rock sounds like crap now IMO...

certain woofers have different characteristics... you'll probably want to go with one known for it's SQ over SPL....

 

SQ SPL? The whole resson I went this route is because I don't know where to put a big box and sub at. These fit nice right in the sailpanels where there out of the way. Adam :-)

 

That's fine as long as you don't run around talking trash and what have you like my friend that works at CC does.

Me: I wouldn't run any this junk (motions at coaxal speakers, etc) in my car.
Him: You think I do? We keep the good stuff in the show room.
*wandering to showroom that contains only subs*
Me: I <3 my flatcone
Him: Oh yeah, those things.
Me: Start talking about fun facts, how these will give larger speakers a run for their money because of their insane amounts of excursion (I mentioned Xmas) as compared to normal retail speakers.
At this point he has a puzzled look. Evidently he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Me: Do you know what Xmas/Xsus are?
Him: looking at me like I made it up no.

This shows the mentality of the majority of the people out there: lots of bass (aka good stuff) and very little of anything else. He showed me his car and all you heard was bass with no trace of lyrics of any kind regardless of genera.

There's a new term that's been coined recently and that's SQL - SQ oriented subs that happen to get loud.

Most big names have a sub along these lines. Image Dynamics is the first name that comes to mind. Another fairly mainstream name is Diamond Audio. JL also makes some nice woofers but I wouldn’t bother unless you’re getting a w6, w6v2, or a w7, which are all pretty expensive subs. Lesser known companies include PPI, Elemental Designs, SoundSpliner, etc. All can play loudly if desired but are more centered around sound quality. Adire Brahmas are suposed to be another speaker along those lines but I have no personal experience with them so I won't vouch for them one way or the other.

 

the brahmas/RE XXXs are supposed to be one of the most accurate woofers on the planet (that don't cost a grand a piece,) and have insane excursion...

the best of both worlds, which is what I'm personally after...

 

Well what do you guys think I should try for a complete system, if you were going to do one for a camaro. I want a good overall sound. I listen to ANYTHING. It just depends on my mood. From classical to heavy metal. I lestin to alternitive and rap the most. The only room I think I can shove a sub at would be where the spare tire gose. Do the even make a box for that spot? And what to do for highs, mids and mid bass. I have the dash, the bose kicks, the bose rear cover thingy and the thingys I am use for my subs. Now keep in mind I know only the basic's about car audio. I bought a book on it. But it's going to take a few more times of reading to understand some of it. Thanks! Adam :-)

 

What if one would run a 10 in a ported box, and two 6.5 in sealed enclosures, all in the back. Would that just be plain out stupid or sound ok or what ?

 

A good system will sound good listening to anything but if you're a bass head then you're going to want a system that's bassier than someone who listens to metal, etc. I've found that it's best to build the most accurate (to your tastes) system and it will generally fill the needs of the occasional bass track (ie stick with sealed boxes or if you port then tune it low so that you won't have a huge peek in output).

Yes but I'm not sure where you're going to be able to find one now. Rezn0r (I forget his exact name) made them for a little while but has since stopped. Search for stealth box. If you have fiberglass skills you could make your own.

The 10 is a good idea but the 6.5's in the back is basically useless because it will detract from a strong front stage. This ties into my next quote nicely.

Ideally you want as few points of sound as possible. This does two things. First, it establishes a very strong soundstage with a clear left/right. Ideally music will sound like it's coming out of the center of the windshield. The second thing is that you will be able to buy one very nice set of speakers instead of two (or three if you want to keep the bose kicks too) sets of 'eh' speakers. There are two options of doing this: building/buying kicks (ideal) or building yourself some sort of custom dash to incorporate larger (6.5") speakers. 6.5” components are generally the way to go in a car if you want the best possible sound.

You might want to check out this thread - https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/car-...endations.html

 

That's what I figured, hmmm how about running a mono sub amp for front woofers ? Like two 7's or 8's ? I'm asking since in the long run I'll probably add another 10 but then I'll need a bigger amp to feed two 10's in the back.

 

explain these "front woofers" please

most people run 6.5" in the kicks, and if you went much higher, you'd run into the problem of horrible vibrations in the doors/kicks...

keep the bass in the hatch for god's sake..

that is all

 

Thanks gummie!! I'll probaly get a set of 6.5 componet kick's made by jim. They look great and don't cost much. Then my friend dose stereo stuff. So i'll have him build me a sealed box out of mdf and make it the right size for the speaker and make it so it fit in the spare tire hole. If not all do it. Right now I am printing the stuff on how to select speakers from jim's site. Thanks again for the help guys!! Adam :-)

 

I think it's doable but the limitation doesn't lie in rattles, it lies in size. Mounting any kind of speaker that can produce some bass up front is going to take up some space. You're talking about a huge set of kicks or a more creative install (door pods, custom dash, etc).

As for keeping the bass in the hatch, there's no real reason to aside from cancellation when you put the bass source in the middle of the car. If someone could find a way to get around that then they could conceivably install two 8" woofers in the sail panels and have a completely stealth install.

Build for the long run. It will save you money, trust me. Most good component sets can play down to accurately to around 80 Hz (if not lower), which is a pretty good spot to have your subs pick up. The only reasons 3 way setups are these: increased midbass output and/or a tad more accurate sound reproduction. In a car I would argue against an audible difference in accuracy with road noise factored in and the midbass could be covered by a more aggressive component set.

Go out and listen to stuff! It’s the best way by far to choose a speaker. You’re going to have to track down your local higher end stereo shop most likely – BB/CC suck IMO. Look for a Tweeter or the likes.

I’m still interested in the woofer sail panel idea. It would be pretty easy to convert the sails into sealed enclosures with minimal work. All it would take would be some expanding foam in some strategic locations and you would be set.



Put expanding foam in the spots highlighted in white to seal off the sail panels and create sealed enclosures. The sails are not factory sealed as you will easily discover if you pull off the plastic trim. The biggest hole is at the back of the car but there are also holes at the bottom of the sails (close to where the back seat would be) and at the top of the sails (where they meet the roof). You could fit a set of 8” woofers in there pretty easily and have it be completely stealth. Install would be pretty painless – just cut a bigger hole in the metal piece or make a wood piece to hold the 8” woofer, seal it to the sail, and you’re good to go crunchwrap style

 

you think the foam would work??? maybe with the foam as well as some sound-deadening material, the rattles would go away finally!!

with my 150wrms DVC 6x9s... the actual metal on the outside of the car, (where the little pontiac firebird images are,) would actually flex and make a metallic noise... so with some liquid sound-deadener or alternative, maybe it could be done...

and if a 6.5" sounds pretty good in there, I bet an 8" would sound pretty cool if you sealed it right...

 

The foam would defiantly make an airtight seal. I'm not sure how much sealing off the sail would help with 6x9's that can’t produce much bass anyway but I'm willing to wager that it would make a pretty decent enclosure for a small sub.