I finally got my Q-form kick pods(sorry DJsexay got them really cheap )and I just got my 6 1/2" Infinity Reference component set installed. I was trying to get more midbass out of the kicks by sealing them better and fixed that problem. Now I have to do something about my rear fill because it SUCKS! I had Kenwood 6"x9"s and just got tired of them pulling my ear to the passenger side so I yanked them out. It sounds better but the sound needs to be fuller. I was thinking about installing another set of Reference components in the 6"x9" opening hopeing the same S/N and voice matching the fronts would help fix this problem but at the same time I'm thinking I'll still have the same problem. Anyone have any ideas? Oh I'm using just 2-channels not 4-channels so I can't fade the front and rear.

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[This message has been edited by jobryan26 (edited November 12, 2001).]

 

You'll need to get a four channel amp, or another two channel, that is to say that I hope you have an amp running the speakers that you already have. Then you'll be able to fade and find the happy medium. I have Infinity 4x6 plates in the vents up front, and 6x9s in the rear, both reference series, and with out being able to fade, I'd have too much front. The 6x9s put out better mid bass then the front, obviously cause 4" is better for mid range, but I think that would help.

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'82 Firebird, dead stock, 9 bolt disc rear, over 200,000 miles and still going strong, more to come...
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I have a 2-channel amp powering the kicks and the 6"x9"s so even if I could fade them the sound would still be out of place. Here's my prob. the kicks centralize the front soundstage and the rears are pulling it to passenger side because it's pointing at my right ear and the other speaker on the driver's side I don't even really hear because of it's location. I think this is my choices:
1. leave them out
2. installing a component set in 6x9 location
3. installing a component set to another spot

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[This message has been edited by jobryan26 (edited November 12, 2001).]

 

Well, this all comes down to a matter of personal taste, but I'll offer my input here...

A good quality set of components (which you have) used for the front stage can be more than enough to satisfy most people if...

1. It's crossed over properly
2. you back them up with even a small sub to fill in the low end gaps
3. positioning is correct on the front stage (again which you hopefully have with the q-forms)

I have never seen the need for rear fill, and to be honest...most cars that I've ever setup for others have convinced them of the lack of need for rearfill as well.

Your downside is the lack of fade capability by using only a 2 channel amp. Even if you install a matched set of components in the rear, that passenger rear speaker will always drive you crazy just because it is direct firing right at the right side of your head. Without being able to fade, your stuck with it like that or just eliminate them all together.

If your amp is capable of tri-mode, I would suggest experimenting with a small 8" or 10" sub and different crossover points for the fronts until you find the sweet spot.

Hope that helps.

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Carl
CarAudio Resources
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Thanks Carl.

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What I am doing and what I've done in the past is this. I have a 4 and a tweet in the kick panels and I have a 6.5 in a pod on the door. The 6.5 is ran as a midbass speaker and it fills the gap between the 4 and the subs. I really like the way it sounds. You could pick up a really nice 4 mid and move your 6 into a build out on your door. Just a thought. Ever since I really got a solid front stage in a car and used an eq to fine tune it, I have never gone back to rear fill. Good luck.

 

You could wire in some L-pads to the back speakers so that you could fade them down and adjust balance.

 

Guys something still isn't right. I have played with my crossovers and it helped some but my mids and highs sound like their coming from my kicks. I want it to sound like having headphones on where the sound is surrounding me but How can I raise the sound up to the mid part of the dash? Anyone else have the Reference 6 1/2 components in kicks?
Is it the speakers?
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[This message has been edited by jobryan26 (edited November 15, 2001).]

 

The combination of the angling of the q-forms and the on or off axis response of the speakers may not be the best combination.

Another thing you may want to try is to take the q-forms out and build yourself a simple mounting board to put the speakers in. Now take that mounting board and play with different angles and see where you get the best response from the speakers. They may be a better speaker to have facing more towards eachother rather than up at the listener...If that is the case then the speakers have a better off-axis response than on axis.

If you find that when you point the speakers towards the center console or eachother that you get the response you are looking for, I'd look into ditching the q-forms and getting a set from someone like DJSexay, or ditch the infinities and find a speaker that is more of an on-axis speaker that will sound better with the angling of the q-form.

Just some suggestions.

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Carl
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Thanks Carl I'll try that.

 

Try disconnecting the back speakers (if you haven't already done so) so that you can concentrate on listening to just the fronts. Now reverse the phase of one of the kicks by switching the + & - wires. (BTW- you can't be 100.0% certain that the + & - on the speaker is labeled correctly from the factory.) Does it sound any better now?

 

Or you can just fix it the easy and right way, get another amp, and fade. Couldn't work out better.

 

I've removed all the speakers except the kicks and subs and the their running off the same amp and the phase is correct. I did a few off the wall things and it sounds great!Thanks bud


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Thanks again stingerssx and your right I need another amp and I'm working on that part. :-) But I don't think the fader would help the imaging tho due to the rear speaker placement.

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[This message has been edited by jobryan26 (edited November 16, 2001).]

 

I've got the Q-forms also with a set of Phoenix Gold Zero Points and no rear fill except for two subs and it sounds full. To get more midbass out of the front speakers you need to get rid of as much resonance as possible up there. So lay down some dynamat on the floorboards to stop the floor from resonating. What I also did with the Q-forms was I mixed up a batch of fiberglass resin and added a bunch of lead shot to it. then I poared it into the back of the kick panels. This increases the weight of the panel and stops it from moving around as much. I think my kicks weigh about ten pounds each. If you do this just be careful you don't melt your plastic with the fiberglass. Also skuff up the back of the panels before poaring in the glass so it adheres better. Just my two cents.

 

Thanks man, about how thick should the resin be? I've never played with fiberglass stuff before but I want to start and I think this would be a good starting point. Any more tips would be great. I might try it my next day off.

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I think I finally have them sounding pretty good after a week of tweeking this and that. The crossovers built-in to the headunit just wouldn't give me the sound I needed so I wound up using the crossover on the amp for the kicks. Then the tweeters were out of adjustment and finally after just driving and listening to different music and adjusting them a dozen times they sound pretty good now. Also setting the center frequency's on the bass and treble took some time too. But it actually sounds really good thanks guys. And anymore tips you have would be great too.

 

It doesn't need to be very thick. The lead shot is extremely dense so a little goes a long way. I think on mine the flat parts of the kicks only had a little, but around the the speaker whole I got it pretty thick. I used a polyester resin and I just about melted them, so you might want to talk to the guys at a plastics place and see if there is another resin that might work with plastic better. I'm not sure if it was the heat that got generated from the hardening reaction or maybe polyester resin and plastics don't mix. Anyway the turned out fine. To plug the whole where the speaker is I used a big styrofoam container. Bad idea the polyester resin ate through that like a mouse through cheese. I'm pretty sure epoxy resin won't do that, I think that's what it is. And it might not melt the plastic either. Also do it outside and try not to inhale to much of those fumes. So those are some of the things I learned while doing mine. To find out more about fiberglassing talk to the guys at a plastics store, they are usually pretty helpful and they'll give you lots of tips.

 

Ok. thanks. I was just thinking. After I put in the resin couldn't I seal the kickpod with fiberglass by making a bowl shape behind the 6 1/2? What do you think?

 

Here are some tips to a great sound stage:

1 - the kicks cannot resonate. So make them thicker, sounddeaden, etc .. That is why I spray each set of my kicks with Cascade V-block

2 - You want to keep the under dash areas from resonating. I put dynamate extreme on the back of my underdash panels to help this

3 - minimize, if not stop, all reflections under dash. I covered my underdash panels in accoustic foam and them tweed, and I covered the knee bolster and glove box (4th gen) with foam and thick grill cloth.

4 - for decent imaging, just having speakers in the kicks is good. But for the next step, the kicks need to be aimed just right, and this is when we start to compromise floor space.

I read someone mentioned ditching Q-forms for my kicks. I actually do not recommend you do that. Remember, my kicks are designed to be a compromise of decent sound, cost, and foot room. I built them to have the best of all worlds, but because of this, they are not "perfect" for a perfect sound stage. It sounds like you may be ready to take the next step and venture into kicks custom made for your speakers and listening preferences.

But I would try deadening the kicks first and atleast deadening and covering the underdash panels. If anything resonates or reflect sounds, that will cue your ears in on the location of the speakers and throw off the stage.

good luck.

mike

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custom 3rd gen kickpanels at
http://www.djsexay.com

 

Dang you guys are GREAT! Mike what do you think of the resin idea(putting a few layers in the kicks)? Wouldn't they also sound better if they were sealed?

 

Mike, the reason I suggested "something like" your kicks was because some speakers actually sound better facing eachother as your mold has them rather than pointing up at the listener. I'm intentionally facing my 5 1/4's like that as well as several others I have spoken to on the IASCA scene.

John, as far as the fiberglass question you e-mailed me about. I don't recomend just "pouring in" resin the way that was described above. Resin by itself is a very brittle substance. This is why you back it up with cloth or mat for reinforcement. The problem is that plastic is very hard to get glass to adhere to. IF you want to try it, I would recomend scuffing up the inside of the kick with like 40grit sand paper and using epoxy resin and epoxy compatable mat. Regular polyester mat will not disolve in epoxy resin.

Lay up one or two layers of fiberglass mat and resin and then spray over that with sound deadening. And while your at it, you may want to take a mold of the existing kick and any portion of the floor that the q-form surrounds and maybe use that to close in the back of the kicks. Just be sure you know what you are doing with the glass before you start or you could end up ruining both your interior and the kicks.

If you have never glassed before, go over to the termpro forums http://www.termpro.com and look under the fabrication section. There is a very good tutorial by the moderator that answers like 50 or so most common questions about fiberglass.

Have fun.


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Carl
CarAudio Resources
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I finally have everything working pretty good. I went and bought a little 50x2 Alpine amp to run my kicks with and I'm using the ole 3554 to run my subs. I went with a 2-channel because as of now I'm not planning on installing any rear speakers so I don't need the extra 2-channels. My 3554 is kicking off at high volumes, I think I know what it is but not sure. It's in a new post. Thanks John