I definately will never agree with you on this one. If you read what you wrote you say the engine runs hotter AND you get more engine wear. I know EFI cars will run very rich when the coolant temp is low, and that richness can cause more wear and oil contamination over a leaner running engine.
I've also ran several different vehicles without thermostats for many years. Friends of mine have done this as well, and are still doing it. I've used separate thermocouples at different points to verify temperatures of the engine metal itself including the spark plugs and the EGT's. I can tell you that when the coolant is cooler, that the metal is also cooler. It's not a theory. It's a fact because it has been actually tested many times by many including myself.
Other people who actually run with no thermostat will tell you the same thing because it's true. All the signs/symptoms of cold metal are there: piston slap & other engine noise, cold plugs, increased sooting up of plugs, increased running oil pressure, increased need for fuel and AE, and you name it. All of these things arent' always desirable if you're running on the street every day in a cold climate. We usually put the tstat back in for winter driving while the track is closed anyway. Sometimes I even have to block off part of the radiator because I run my bypass holes on the tstat itself (all bypass coolant goes back through the radiator instead of actually bypassing).
We also use a CTS Tricker Box to keep the A/F ratio much leaner and that helps things out a ton. The leaner A/F keeps the temp in the chambers up and the plugs much cleaner. The actual temp of the metal will go up some at that point and engine noises like piston slap will go away though the actual temps are still lower than with a 195* tstat.

What you and many describe as hotter running when the coolant flows faster goes against how auto-makers have been designing cooling systems from the start. They ALWAYS have the w/pump spin faster as engine speed increases. This is because engine temps increase with RPM and load. Remember that once the tstat opens it usually stays open until COOLANT temp drops (not engine metal temp). This works because one follows the other (low coolant temp = low metal temp). It also means that coolant flows faster through the engine and the pump spins faster. This is how it was meant to be because it works. It's simple.
Coolant temp does NOT equal metal temp. That should be obvious. The metal will always be hotter, but you do NOT get hotter than stock metal temps with cooler than stock coolant temps. It really doesn't work that way. You don't have to trust me. Get a thermocouple or IR gun and test it.

Too many people are chasing demons (especially on this site) about theories and stories they heard from cousin Bob. You have to really look at your source of information critically. Think about it. Many people that became desperate and finally removed their tstat HAD a cooling problem already. Removing the tstat will NOT cure a clogged cooling system or failing water pump! When that didn't work they took it to a shop who actually fixed their problem. Most shops would also install the stock tstat before handing a car back over to a customer. Voila a higher temp tstat cured the problem!! well that's your typical homeboy science for you.

To avoid this kind of junk science you have the option of doing it yourself the correct way and getting real data so that you know exactly what is going on in your engine. This is what I've learned from my own testing:

1. Will you run cooler without a tstat? Yes definately.
2. Can you make more power with a cooler engine? Yes.
3. Can you run too cool and have problems? Yes if you don't do it right.
4. Will running cooler allow you to run more compression without detonation? Yes
5. Will running cooler help things live on a nitroused motor? Yes
6. Will running cold cause increased engine wear on a computer controlled motor? Yes definately because you run pig rich.
7. Can I run cool to make more power without all those side effects? Yes if you run some kind of Tricker Box

Programming your PROM for cooler temps will only help to a certain extent, say if you run 160 to 180*F. Some cars run cooler than this, and though you can program the extra fuel out at those lower temps (in the prom) you start cutting into the warm-up enrichment that you actually need for cold start ups. An engine that's dead cold with a 130*F coolant temp actually needs much more fuel than an engine that's already warmed up & going down the highway with a 130*F coolant temp. A tricker box is a simple and ideal way to work with the stock or custom prom to give you control over the A/F when you need it. It has many uses but one of the best is to save fuel and keep your plugs from fouling. I run EXTREMELY cold nonresistor racing plugs so this is a big issue for me. I get away with running them year-round because of using a tricker box. Without the tricker they would carbon over and I'd get misfires and no starting. I'd be pulling the plugs to clean them every other week during the winter.

I know there's many people on this site who have very cool running engines and just need a way to lean things back down once the metal & plugs has warmed up.

 

Nice explanation, you covered it well. Unfortunately the cousin Bob's out there still won't believe you.:hail:

 

I had no thermo in my car, it ran cold as ice all the time, The ******* thought is the coolant doesnt spend enough time in the rad to cool off is and plain out STUPID! But no matter what people say some people still think the earth iis flat.

 

i thought the ******* way was removing the thermostat in the first place



http://www.ozskywatch.com/amaz/try/shape/intro/flat.gif

 

Or we could all fix our cooling systems so they work right.......

How about this: Removing the t-stat make sit run hot or cold, but neither is what you want. I don't think running your engine at 80*F all day is very good for it

 

Here is the textbook answer:

 

double post

 

Continued..

 

i like that. what is that from?

 

Todays Technician series: Automotive Heating and Air Conditioning, 2nd edition

Here is a link to them i found really quick

 

So once and for all this subject is dead,beat,done,over. No thermo = cooler.

 

The Final Answer.....:lala:

 

*shrug*

the thermostat sets the min coolent temp for the system. i have never understood what the big deal is about?

 

If you go back on the posts there was some discussion about completely removing the stat and the need for a restrictor of some sort to prevent OVERHEATING without the stat physically in place. Glad this post is closing up, all I said to the doubting Thomas out there was try it. No stat, very cold.

 

Here's one more for the road. From the Stewart Components web site:

Thermostats & Restrictors
We strongly recommend NEVER using a restrictor: they decrease coolant flow and ultimately inhibit cooling.

For applications requiring a thermostat to keep the engine at operating temperature, we recommend using a Stewart/Robertshaw high flow thermostat. This thermostat does not restrict flow when open. The Stewart/ Robertshaw thermostat enhances the performance of the cooling system, using any style of water pump. However, the Stewart Stage 1 high-flow water pump may require this thermostat to operate properly, and Stewart Stage 2, 3, and 4 water pumps simply will NOT operate with a regular thermostat because these pumps have no internal bypasses.

Stewart further modifies its thermostat by machining three 3/16" bypass holes directly in the poppet valve, which allows some coolant to bypass the thermostat even when closed. This modification does result in the engine taking slightly longer to reach operating temperature in cold weather, but it allows the thermostat to function properly when using a high flow water pump at high engine RPM.
A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it.

 

I wish the jackass that argued with me on my post about my car having no thermo would read this thread! :lala:

 

so you think no t-stat is good?

 

Read the other thread, I was saying in it how my car was using way too much gas and it was NEVER warming up. I never had heat etc. The prev owner took out the thermo and i was putting one back in. THEN some Jackass came in the thread and started arguing with me saying " If your car has no thermo it will over heat not over cool" Seems funny i dont see him commenting in here is what i was saying.

 

ahh ok, I didnt read the other thread.

 

This thread will never die because most people still dont understand.

 

the car will not warm up as fast and will run cooler.

 

the car will not warm up to the correct operating temperature period. and it will run too cool.

 

Still dont care what might be printed in a (certain) text book and passed along to 18 year old know it all's in tech school that are too damn stupid to know the difference between SAE and Metric.

Seems Zap is the only one around here besides myself with enough experiance to know better.

See ya all in the tech board when your planning a rebuild or an engine swap.


Latter.

SSC

 

Hmm, see thats where you are wrong. I am 26 and happily married, and that is no where near 18, and if you cant read black and white theres problems. You see, the 18 year olds are the ones that take things that are fact(text book) and say "I dont care, Im gonna do it my way"

So you and Zap are the only ones with experience because he agrees with you?? Sounds like 18 year old logic to me too

Think before you speak.

Go check the tech board for my engine build, Id love to have your comments, as long as they are intelligent, and you dont ridicule just because someone doesnt agree with you. Its called discussion Click here

 

Just ignore the inmture ravings of the metaly retarded. Hopefully their ignorrant comments will get then banned like it did to agood, he had the same, "i know more then all" mentality. This is a tech forum not a ******* "i wanna argue with you online to make me feel better" forum

 

ya know i was hoping to leave this open in order to continue some mature discussion about the subject. which is really the best way to learn. we have been nice until the last few post. i guess the final consensus is that if you take your thermostat out your car will turn into a spaceship and fly to the moon.

if someone would like to continue this discussion in a mature matter then i have NO problem with someone opening a NEW thread and continuing where we left off. However anyone doing any namecalling or bashing will imediatly be refered to the admin.