I have a 84 TA with this motor \/

Its a 355, brodix t1 heads, LT headers, vr. jr, intake, 750 dble pumper, good size cam, 39 degrees total timing, TH350 trans, car dyno'ed at 340 rwhp etc etc. and im having over heating issues.

Currently, the car has the air foil, new alum 3 core rad with 2 new fans (2800 cfm total, spinning the correct way on manual switches) , no thermostat also have a newer temp gauge. (I beleive the water pump is from the stock 305, so it very well may have 100k miles on the pump)


Just driving the car around casually the car starts to push 200 F. Its around 85 F outside.

I cant run her to hard beacuse she starts to push 210, and while im racing it gets even hotter....

The hoses do not collapse when the motor revs, their are no coolant leaks, and I made sure several times there were not air pockets in the coolant system.

What do you guys think?

Think its times for a new water pump?

I guess right now im leaning towards a long neck CW Stewart Stage II pump.....any body else got ideas on what to check????

 

First the obvious. Make sure the water pump you have is
being driven in the correct direction. Serpentine drives
turn the pump opposite than v-belt, so you have to have
a corresponding direction pump.

Second the not so obvious. Check out my comments
in the "1986 Trans Am Overheating" thread. It's somewhat
lengthy, and may be relevant here also.

Good luck, hope this help.

 

Ya, I checked the water pump, it was spinning the wrong direction.

The whole situation is odd to say the least. V-belt water pumps 86 and older are suppose to be "standard rotation". According to the 4 different brand water pumps I looked at today at the local parts stores, standard rotation is indeed counterclockwise......

What I need is a clockwise rotation pump....which happens to be serpentine driven pumps and are 87 and newer.....cool right?

The not so cool part is the 86 and older and 87 and newer have different bolt patterns for the pulleys...the 87 and newer are about 1/8" in towards the center compared to 86 and older.

One more thing I learned today, the 87 and newer pumps DO NOT have mounts for the alternator.....how convenient.....

So what did I do.....I worked on this issue from 10 in the morning till 10 at night....I bought a newer style water pump, drilled and tapped the mounting plate for the pulley, only to find out I have nowhere to mount the alternator bracket.....sweet

How did I fix the problem?...well I haven't yet, I do know the solution......

You have to have an aftermarket water pump with the correct rotation for your engine (for me it was clockwise) with the old style pump......

Stewart Stage II pump, item # 23113

I am now an expert on GM water pumps.....wish I never had to learn about them....

 

Appreciate the info....

I know which pump I need, but im still questioning which way these stock design pumps are suppose to spin from looking at the impeller....

Looking at the second picture down on this link.....

http://www.corvettemagazine.com/tech...p-rebuild.html

The pump impeller from this picture on a v belt drive motor is going to be pushing the impeller tabs against the water, not pulling against the water......wtf....

It looks like to me that pump is a counterclockwise pump....but its for standard sbc 350 with a clockwise rotation witha v-belt drive......what gives????????

 

It's good that you've identified the source of the problem.
Sometimes (but not always) that can be the hardest part.

Just another tid-bit...
V-belt drives turn the water pump in th same direction as engine
rotation. Serpentine drives reverse the belt around the water
pump, for opposite rotation. Water flow direction is the same.

Not trying to be smart-***, but I'm still missing something here.
What type of accessory drive set-up do you have, serpentine or v-belt?
That should be what determines the pump you need. Serpentine
pumps don't have the alternator bracket mount, because alternator
is mounted separately, w/ the pwr-steering pump.

Now I will be a bit smart-***.
Wouldn't it have been easier to drill the pulley to match the pump?
(Thinner metal, no threading...)

Good luck with your quest, we can all relate.

 

lol, to reply to the non smart-*** comment....its a V-belt setup, just a a standard alternator on the top left, PS on the bottom right, water pump in the middle. The PS has its own belt, the alt and water pump share a belt.

All this confusion is coming from the fact that all the v-belt pumps ive looked at so far are CCW rotation which is incorrect, or at least I think so. Thats why I posted the pic to help clarify what im talking about...that pump in the pic I believe is a CCW rotation pump....correct?


To reply to the smart-*** comment....you would think it would have been easier......lol, but the issue was, it was 10 O'clock last night and the hardware stores were closed and the threads on pulley mounting plate were metric...I didnt have any metric bolts lol, plus I didn't want to mess up the nice clear coat finish on the pulley....lol So, I did whatever was possible to get that pulley to mount on the pump....which was dumb becuase now I cant return it or use it on my motor...... awsome

 

alright, heres my discussion on another forum....can any of you read this and say....."yep, this guy is right" ??????? lol

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/mild...ml#post1134830

 

Read that, & I can't tell which guy your referring to as "right"

Believe me, I can so relate to the late-night desparation issue.
And trust me when I say decisions made after 4-6 hours of
wrestling with a project INVARIABLY turn out to be...
how best to put it... BONEHEADED. Put it down, walk away,
sleep on it, whatever. A rested lump of gray matter will
always produce better ideas.

My final thought is
"Try not to lose site of the forest, for the trees."
If you have a v-belt set-up, get the early model pump
attach your nice clear-coat finish pulley, and install it.
Do not take off the cover, stare at the vanes, & try to
second guess the GM engineers on this one. (Lord knows,
there's plenty of other areas for that.)

(I assume that your engine rotates in the intended direction. )

Again, good luck.

 

Ya, your completely right.....i ordered a new alum pump anyways...the suggested v-belt clockwise rotation lol...im not even going to pull the cover, im just going to install it.

Im going to try your suggestions with blocking off the holes made by mounting the rad at a angle, going to try a couple more things to. I appreciate the help. Ill let you know how it goes later in the week when i can get around to it. Thanks again, keep up the good work....

 

Alright guys, the saga continues...


I just finished installing all the new stuff....the current cooling system is...


3 core all alum. rad.
2 electric fans with shroud (airflow checked for pulling)
New "high flow" alum. water pump (correct clockwise rotation)
160 F thermostat with two 1/8" holes drilled

Airdam is installed with 3 alum. brackets keeping it from getting pushed back by wind.

Coolant is probably 25% coolant 75% water. Has one bottle of water wetter.

System was burped several times to make sure.

The new rad cap is holding good pressure without releasing.

I also blocked off the holes created from mounted the rad at a angle, this did not help.

It was around 86 F out, while just cruising around it would slowly creep up to about 205, if I tried to give her a little gas the temp would start to climb. Eventually it hits 220 and starts running like s***.


I am at a loss. I have tried all of my ideas.....

Anyone else have any thoughts?????????

 

I have a similar setup in my camaro,

355
230/480 cam, 600 afb carb, 3 core rad, 160 thermo, full time fan on switch.

9 deg, base timing, 34 advance. going to try using a stock aircleaner with the hose to see if that helps.

anything new on yours?

 

Ya, I finally figured out that the only thing left that wasn't doing its job on the car was the fans. 3,000 CFM is only enough for a stock SBC. So, I have ordered new fans to have a total flow of around 5k - 6k CFM.

Im still waiting on them to get shipped. I ordered them from gauge magazine, what a mistake. I should have spent the extra $20 and bought them from Summit or whatever to get them shipped out within a reasonable time period lol

I have been more active on this thread on a different forum, I would suggest reading through it, a ton of good information their.

Heres the link:


http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/mild...lp-160431.html

 

i read through all the stuff on the other forum, sounds like alot of good info but its all stuff we have tried. let me know how the fan thing works out but i think we're missing the problem somewhere else. if the car has an air dam it should cool on the freeway. mine doesnt cool on the freeway. my theory is either an air flow problem over the radiator or a lack of airflow through the engine bay. have you tried with the hood off? feeding the aircleaner with some cool air via a "cold air induction" of some kind? these are the things im getting ready to do. anyway, i know how you feel. id rather drive off a cliff than ef with it at this point..

keep ya posted,

 

Yep, I know what ya mean. Its just sitting in my garage and I just don't want to think about it lol.....My fans come in on Saturday, ill let you know if they help.

The car has a 2.5" cowl hood, so I would imagine its getting decent airflow through the engine bay....

Let me know how the cold induction works for ya....

 

Ok i skimed through this so I got 2 suggestions for you.

If this is a street driven car 39 degrees to too much timing and could be some of your over heating problems. And also I read you not running a thremostat. I bet your coolant is moving to fast through the radiator and its not being cooled. You should atleast put a restrictor the thermostat housing. Since you had the car dynoed im guessing your not running lean so that out of the picture.

 

Well, the car made the most power at 39 degrees, probably not going to change this lol.

I am running a thermostat now, read through the thread below, a lot of good information. Also, the theory of "cooling moving to fast" is a complete fallacy.

Read that thread for more info on why T-stats are used.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/mild...lp-160431.html

I appreciate the help! keep up the good work.

I get my new fans on Saturday, I will let everyone know if they help!!

 

I wount go there today with the cooling moving faster debate. And I know what a t stat is for. Just funny that I have a 355 pushing close to your Hp and with all the upgraded cooling stuff and only a mech clutch fan and my car runs no more than 180 on a hot day.

 

I wont go there today with the cooling moving faster debate. And I know what a t stat is for. Just funny that I have a 355 pushing close to your Hp and with all the upgraded cooling stuff and only a mech clutch fan and my car runs no more than 180 on a hot day.

 

I wasn't trying to insult you, just didn't want another debate on a dead horsey.
From all the research I have done, my problem is not enough airflow. Your clutch fan is providing you with enough airflow, that's why your not over heating. Cutch fans pull a ton of air. That's why I made that same comment on the alum rad. thread. lol

 

just thinking out lound for a sec here,

if there were an air flow problem, wouldn't the car run cooler on the freeway at 75 or so?

 

Theirs a couple problems with that,

One, my motor is spinning upwards of 4,500 - 5,000 RPM at that speed, producing much more heat then a normal car.

Two, the rad requires not only airflow but static pressure to blow through the rad. The only pressure you get from fast moving air is velocity pressure, which may or may not be enough to blow through a rad. On top of that, our cars have no grills, so any airflow that the rads sees is only being deflected by the air foil which puts no force on pushing the air through the rad while driving. The airfoil simply pushes the air up into the bumper compartment for the fans to suck through the rad......eh?

 

point well taken, I did a couple things today with mine. first i checked my timing, i almost had full advance at idle. little did i know, the vaccume advance is adjustable. so i diald that down and now im gonna see how it works on the way home tonight.

just wondering, do you have like 4.56 gears or something? 5000 seems really high at freeway speed.


ps, what is your elevatoin?

 

Ya, I have 4.56 gears and 28" MT street slicks. It doesn't help that my converter doesn't lock up till 4,500 either lol

Im at 700 ASL. So, the air is not particularly thin....


Whats your total timing?
How'd adjusting your timing work out?

 

SHHHH don't talk down about clutch fans.... 84 Z28 is in this thread!

 

Update: Problem solved.

I put the new fans on and it didnt get nearly as hot. Really beating on the motor and may have started to get up to 200 F at the most.

This is good enough for me. Thanks for all your help guys.

Also, as all you guys know, once you fix one thing, another thing breaks.

The half hour ride I got in on a cooler running engine, second gear on my TH350 gives out.......awesome.

I guess ill be making a new thread on where I should take the trans to have it built for 600 hp.....any ideas???

Thanks again guys.....

 

well, i took my underdrive pullys off and had a bit of improvement. now she only gets up to around 200.... i guess thats good rite? lol