StonersTA

Hi,

I have a 87 GTA that was originally a 305TPI 5-Speed Car. I took out the factory drive train and had the car repainted. Now that I got it back I installed a ZZ4 350 Crate engine with a Holley Stealth Ram intake. I also swapped out the T5 for a T56 but that doesnt really matter for this post.
I also purchased a new (never installed) Holley Commander 950 ECU off someone on Thirdgen.org here to run everything. I has the factory supplied narrow band O2 sensor.
I have everything installed and downloaded the latest program for the 950 off Holley's website. Had to find an old laptop using Window's XP to run the software but I got everything hooked up and talking to each other now.
I purchased a Kirban Fuel Pressure Regulator as an upgrade after a TON of people told me not to use the Holley supplied FPR. Its much larger than the Holley and space is limited where the distributor cap is.
I set the fuel pressure to 40lb and bought South Bay 24lb/hr injectors.

Ok, now that I think I've given as much specs as needed for my question here we go.
I set the engine to TDC and had the number one spark plug on the Distributor pointed to the No. 1 cylinder. The engine would just pop a could times but never run. Someone suggested that I advance the timing to get the engine to fire, since space was limited I moved all the spark plug wires 1 over counter-clockwise to advance the timing without moving the distributor. Now the car fires up and even runs very smooth but wont stay running. The car will only stay running for about 10-20sec before it starts to surge and then shuts off. If I even touch the distributor to advance the timing or retard the timing at all the engine shut off The throttle body has a loud hissing noise when it shuts of which made me think the IAC isnt set. So I made sure to to the reset procedure I found on here but it didnt change anything.

I'm looking for help from anyone but if someone out there with experience with the 950 setup would be ideal.

Thanks everyone!!

StonersTA

I should also say I am using Holleys base map for StealthZz4. This base map is tuned to 30lb hr injectors and 40psi fuel pressure. My set up has 27lb hr injectors and 40 psi. Would that 3lb hr difference cause me these problems??

seiplentz

iTrader: (2)

I think maybe your distributor is 180 out. Pull it back out spin the cap 180 degrees and drop it back in. Double check your software too. Depending on how old the 950 you have you might need to send it in and have it upgraded to the latest firmware to run the pro version software. My original issue were files getting corrupted when i imported them.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Not sure about the 950, but with my Holley HP, if ya wanted to use a certain calibration, but had different injectors, you simply changed the injector size in the initial set up, and the computer does the math and compensates. Those base calibrations are intended for basic fuel and timing maps, not for the initial engine set up. They assume you'll go in and set all those different variable as many people use different set ups. ....however, that being said, I don't imagine a difference between 3 pounds would make such a drastic difference for the car not to run.

Are you using the Holley to control timing? If so, you need to be sure the Holley software shows the same timing on the screen as what you can actually verify with a timing light. They recommend syncing at idle first, then at a higher RPM like 3000. ....but of course you need it to run first. I'm also inclined to believe you may be 180* off. I'd pull the plug wires and distributor, set the engine to TDC and and put everything back together and try again. Keep in mind it's not just TDC....you're looking for TDC, but on the COMPRESSION stroke, not exhaust.

StonersTA

@seiplentz, @Abubaca Thank you both.
You both responded quickly back in October when I made my original post. I have since been super busy as we welcomed our second child into the family and haven't had time to do ANYTHING to the car.
I am completely open to try anything and I think sometimes taking a step back and retracing your steps might be beneficial. So I'm going to do just that. I'l set up a camera also so I can actually have something to show the TGO people for better understanding on what i'm working with.
I wanted to respond now tho because I appreciated you guys giving me any type of advice. I'll be sure to update on here with whatever I do to it here when the weather breaks (Northeast Ohio has been bitter cold lately)

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Congrats on being dad again!!!

....when you get time to tinker some more, just post up and we'll get it worked out.

seiplentz

iTrader: (2)

Yup we will.

Im about to fire up newly built 355 with my 950 so we see what I run into. Its been a few since I messed with it myself.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I agree with possibly having the distributor 180° out of sync with the cam or you could also have too much advance and the timing is literally working against the engine. Best way to check is to hook the battery up to a charger, pull the injector fuses or injector connectors and have an assistant turn the engine over while you look with a timing light. It'll either be within +/- 40° or way, way off (~180°). You can get timing close enough to start the engine this way. I've read and experienced that 10° of base advance makes for easier starts because you are allowing for more cylinder pressure to build, making it easier to start. I wouldn't go exploring much beyond 10° because it could have a negative effect since at starter cranking speeds of 400 rpm the rotational speed is slow enough so more advance could work against you.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

It night be a tooth or so off but 180 out would just backfire.
Pull #1 plug bring it to the compression stroke (put your finger in the hole) lineup the timing marks
drop the dizzy in pointing at #1 and try again.

StonersTA

thanky Don, That seems to be what everyone thinks. I'm going to try that out. BTW - Headers look great on the car! Thanks again!

StonersTA

Hello Everyone, I wanted to post an update since its been a few months since my last post.
So I went out and pulled the cap off the distributor and brought the car around to TDC again and sure enough the rotor is pointed right at No.1, so I know that's correct. I buttoned everything back up and rechecked all the spark plug wires. So I know those are correct.
I went to the laptop and tried to fire up the car and it did was it was doing in the fall. Start up > Chug and Rough Idle > Engine Stalls. I started looking at the 950 pro software and noticed that it said the ECU was offline. When I tried to retrieve data or send fresh tune (StealthZZ4.950), but I kept getting an error message popping up telling me that the ECU was not connected or powered on. Spent a couple days racking my brain to finally realize that the Com Port setting was changed for some reason and once that was corrected on the laptop and the 950 software it started talking to each other.
Got the StealthZZ4.950 tune sent over successfully, and the car fired up perfectly. Got a video of it I can share if needed. Honestly I was surprised it fired up and kinda didnt have a plan on what to do if it ran lol. I turned the car off while I tried to think and come up with a plan of action. When I finally was ready again I could not get the ECU and laptop to talk to eachother again. Even with the correct com port selected it just wouldnt work!
Got frustrated and went into the house to try and process it all. I was convinced that the Serial to USB adapter had to be the problem. Swapped it out and boom, it started talking to eachother again. Fired the car up and was getting live readings on the Fuel Map. I got out of the drivers seat and put a dial back timing light on it to ensure I have the timing set correctly. Got the timing just right and it sounded great, was a lil on the rich side but idled great. As it was idling all of the sudden it started chugging again, I put the timing light back on it and it was jumping all over and no matter what I did with the distributor it would not lock in like it was. This led me back to the laptop to see what readings I was getting. Guess what? 950 software was reading that the ECU was offline. I shut the car off and tried to start over. The laptop will not connect and read the ECU again.
Only thing I can think of is that the ECU is not working correctly? OR I have a setting clicked that I shouldnt, or not selected that maybe I should? Maybe the adapter really is the culprit? Whatever it is I'm frustrated and giving up.
I spoke with a guy on here EFIGUY who was super nice and willing to help me out. The 950 just isnt enough for 2019. I have have a dinosaur in a ECU hooked up to a dinosaur of a laptop and trying to learn EFI with a narrowband O2 sensor. He offered to sell me a kit with a base tune for my car pre-loaded to get me started and also offer a bit of tech support if you will to keep me going.
So I'll be posting my 950 for sale on here and hope to recoup some of my money of the new AEM Infinity 308 from EFIGUY.
Im sure if I kept with it I could figure it out but as I discussed with EFIGUY its only a matter of time before I'd be force to upgrade anyway. I'll rip the bandaid off now and spend the money so i'll be set.
Thanks everyone for your help. I'll let ya know how the AEM swap goes!

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

The 950 isnt old per say. There are people with radical setups on the stock ecu burned chip. Guy who built my motor runs a fast classic on a 450 miniram with nitrous. I guess if you sell systems on the side and your having an issue with your current because of lack of exp. Or whatever factor, That selling you the next best thing and writing a tune for it would solve your problem. Funny he didnt try to sell you a Accel DFI? Oh ya that's right they dont make them anymore. Ironic whoever told you to buy a system from them didnt comment in this thread.

seiplentz

iTrader: (2)

That AEM system is far more complex then the 950 you're using.. Good luck learning that. The 950 ran my mild tpi setup just fine with minor tweaks here and there.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Basically the guy was preying on someone who needed help with tuning or setup of a system. New to aftermarket efi? Yes it can be daunting. If your really green you can have these type of people come in here, tell you your system wont cut it in 2019. Lol. Funny it's not up to 2019 spec but it's running mid late 80s tech. Nice sell line. So sell you an AEM system. Never seen one on a thirdgen. But I digress. They guy used to to sell Accel DFI and we know what happened to them. So now sells AEM because he cant make money selling Holley because way to much competition. Basically this guy hosed you. Dont buy that AEM. Get with someone who tunes and tunes holley,with YOUR best interest in mind. Not just selling you a system to make a buck. Good luck

StonersTA

I have been messing with this 950 for probably 6 months now. The fact that I was excited it ran for less than 3 mintues before the ECU went offline should tell you something lol.
The :"guy" has commented on here before. His user name is EFIGUY on Thirdgen.org. I do believe the system he sold me will be far more advance for what I need however it comes with a i wideband o2 (the 950 had a narrowband and the holley upgrade was close to $500 for the wideband)
I can see all of your points. I know it might seem like he "hosed me" but I dont feel hosed if it gets the car rolling on the road. Let me explain my thought process and then you can tell me if I'm crazy
Holley Commander 950 - *Has to have a laptop that runs Windows XP or older. I had to dig up a laptop dinosaur from my parents house to just get the software running. *950 setup I have runs off a narrowband O2 sensor. *950 I purchased was NOS. Had the original packaging still on it. Therefore it was not upgraded from Holley to support the 950 pro software (I'm assuming). When I called Holley they told me they dont offer that service anymore. This might be why the pro software kept saying the ecu was offline? either way its not talking to the pro software correctly. *950 has no battery back up (or the internal battery is dead) because when I disconnect the car's battery, the tune disappears. Before anyone asks, yes I have the wiring correct. Constant power is where it is suppose to be. So this means if my battery dies on me anywhere I go I better have that dinosaur laptop handy with the proper tune ect.
The Infinity 308 is overkill for the setup I'm running, this is true. However it runs off a current laptop OS system. Has internal battery backup. Comes with a wideband o2. Has a factory warrenty from AEM. and I get this guys "support" for tuning in my car.
I know what you guys are all saying and I appreciate the feedback and support but I'm going forward with this. I already agreed to sell the 950 to a guy in New York, I'll ship it out today after work. I already paid for the AEM and it ships out to me today.
Thanks everyone for the feedback and wish me luck. I need to get this bird on the road this summer and I hope the AEM does the trick!!

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Dont take it the wrong way. I didnt intend to question you. It just didnt make sense that you paid for the 950 then have to pay again for another system. I question the AEM as well. Why that system? I dont know a person on this board or in my group of people/ tuners that even use that ecm. With Holley and Fast tuners everywhere you turn. Did you compare all 3? Not questioning your choice. But if you talk to one guy and they only sell one system and your not that familiar with aftermarket Efi. Personally I like the Holley HP install. The tpi/ stealt ram kit on a thirdgen. To each his own. Good luck with the install. Let us know how it turns out.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

https://forums.holley.com/showthread...-Update-How-To

https://forums.holley.com/showthread...ight=Commander

Pretty current threads on the 950. Who told you you cannot update firmware? Did you try the Holley forums at all? So much info on the 950.

StonersTA

I called Holley's tech support phone number. Spoke to two different guys who told me the same thing. They "stopped doing that" is what they told me.
I'm not upset and I know its hard to tell through txt the tone of the conversation. I just wanted to explain to everyone why I did what I did and hey, hopefully it all works out.
Again, thanks for the comments and support. I'll keep you all posted on how the AEM works out once I get it wired up

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

So because of that it makes it not a good choice? Hmmmm....
What kinds of cars are these?
http://gotransam.com/transam101/TA2-Class/59344
Oh that's right, because you've never heard of it it's no good, riiiight. Wouldn't an application like these need good throttle response, a reliable system etc?.

I'm an AEM, FAST and Holley dealer, factory trained on both AEM and Holley. Can you say that?
The AEM Infinity has one of the fastest processors (400mips) of any aftermarket system in the price range, and even some above it. It'll do some things that neither the FAST or Holley will do. And as he mentioned, just to upgrade to a wideband on his 950 would've cost him another $500.00. Is that really a worthy investment in a 20 year old system? Plus it'll still be slower than the AEM.
I sold him the least expensive option WITH the most features and tuning ability (all the Infinity ECU's share the same software and processor). This ECU will run everything from a 4cyl Toyota to a Mazda Rotary to a 3000hp BBC.
(Or even something like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMpBSWTGHko)
They also make a plug n play version to replace the old MEFI IV systems. You might want to get out more, you're showing your true level of intelligence here. Lots of other good stuff out there besides the "most popular".

Thanks.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

So it's my fault they went out of business? WOW that's a stretch!
When Holley bought them, they left a boatload of people stranded because they deleted the software and parts from the website a bit prematurely imo. I was told by a very reliable source that they dumped boards and complete systems into a dumpster, It negatively effected a lot of people in the process, even today. Ironically however some of the current Holley tables are based on the old Accel DFI, go figure.
I still support the DFI system btw. I cared enough to grab all of their relevant software BEFORE they turned out the lights. You don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad you cared enough to grab all the relevant software before they called quits. Your a hero to your potential clients. Your a certified Holley dealer? Where in FL? The only thing I know is Accel DFI you touted as the cat's *** until they went belly up. Now the AEM is the chosen one.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

You got called out and have to come to defend your behind the scenes dealing. So here you come. I guess I'll go to transam.com to see efiguy is not trying to make a buck but just here to help the masses. I think the funniest line was you told him the 950 wont cut it in 2019. Ha ha.

Its funny how years past the cars and combinations ran on the stock ecu. Like my supercharged mustang. 500hp on methanol and factory computer. I guess my tuner could be pushing me to an AEM( not a chance) or the Holley which we talked about. But he is the real deal with his own dyno and almost exclusively sells Holley. So stock stuff and older systems are still viable, but not to someone like you . You cannot make a profit on a system that someone else has sold. I can guarantee you didnt direct him to Holley forums. The commander forum is still working. And people are still posting in it. So a wideband would have cost another $500? How much did the whole AEM system cost? Holleys 601 comes with wide band and all the sensors for around $1400. If you need a replacment wideband say a ntk they alone are $250. But in 2019 it wont cut it. Lingenfelter sold many packages with tuned factory chips as did TPIS and others on this board. Guess they needed AEM too.

So the issue at hand is guy buys a new in box system. Was told cant upgrade firmware, which is incorrect because you still can. Has issues saving the file to the ecu. Which to a new user can be confusing. When I first used the Holley I had to visit the forums to see how to actually load the tune into the ecu and save it because I was having a simaler issue. So here comes along efiguy. Hey you have a commander? That system is a dinosaur. This is 2019. Time to get with the program and get a system that can do things other systems only dream of. So for a small fee I'll sell you this new golden child to solve all your problems. I won't help diagnose the commander or even try. It's easier on my end to sell you an new system. It's a win win...for me. I make money and dont have to trouble shoot a sytem that was not bought from me. Even though it could be an easy fix. That's the issue I have. If efiguy didnt sell it to you or doesnt sell it. He isnt interested in anything but selling you a new system.

So your a Holley dealer huh? Certified in FL? What's the buisness name so I can search Holleys certified dealer listing. I'm sure being a Holley dealer , Holley would love the fact one of its dealers instead of supporting a Holley installed product told them to sell it and buy and AEM. So when do you sell any Holley systems? You never recommend them for anything. It was always Accel DFI before. Now its AEM.

I'm not factory trained Holley tuner. And? Your point? I'm factory trained in other areas you are not. But this isnt a pissing contest. I pay my factory trained Holley tuner. Does that count? Plus he isnt a snake like you slithering behind the scenes. Then you come on here to defend yourself poorly. I know what you did. You know what you did. That's all that matters. Not like I'd send a dollar your way for anything. Well maybe I would for you to buy some class. Does AEM teach that?

Ha ha. It just wont cut it in 2019. Now that's a funny one. Lol. Keep on slithering.

StonersTA

I'm going to have to go back and re-read some of my posts from earlier in this thread. I dont remember saying that he told me "it wont cut it in 2019" and if I said something along those lines I want to clarify now. He never told me that. He did tell me that current systems are far more advanced and user friendly which in turn makes it easier to learn from than the older systems.
I paid someone on here $400 for a NOS Holley Commander 950. If I pay the $500 for the upgraded Wideband O2 sensor, now I'm $900 into it. The price EFIGUY and I agreed to wasnt much more than that. So why have $900 into an old system when for a bit more I can have the newest tech.
Again I want to clarify something else. I called Holley's tech support line TWICE. Each time I spoke to someone different. Both people I talked to told me Holley no longer supports the upgraded Firmware for the 950. They even gave me a guys name and told me to call in later in the day when he would be there and ask for him specific because hes the only guy in their tech office that is familiar with the 950. When I did get in touch with him he told me a few things to try but suggested that it might just be easier to upgrade to a newer system if I cant get it worked out.
I also want to clarify some more. I would have to play with the laptop and the turn the key on and off several times to get lucky once just to have the 950 connect to the laptop. When it would connect I was able to get the tune sent to the ECU. The car accepted the tune and ran, I even had a timing light on it. But for whatever reason the ECU would go back offline in the middle of the car running.
I know you guys are clearly having a debate but I want to be clear. I'm happy with my decision. EFIGUY has committed to standing behind his product and offering continued tech support to help me get learn how to manipulate the maps and get this tuning down. He also committed to designing a base tune for my particular setup to help get me started. He's been great so far. He has also be readily available when I contact him, which is all I can ask for when I pay someone for support. The system hasnt come in yet (he mailed it monday) so I dont want to put the cart in front of the horse but EFIGUY has given me no reason to suspect that this wont go exactly as he and I discussed.
This project of mine has been a long time coming. I purchased a absolute solid, rust free GTA at an auction for $1200 bucks. I've not done a Trans Swap (T56), Engine Swap (GM ZZ4), EFI swap (TPI to HSR), New injectors, Fuel pressure regulator, ALL new sensors on the engine, New front assembly (Water Pump, AC, Power Steer), New Radiator, All new AC component, New Paint job and new weather striping. I have a ton of money in this car to have it sitting up on jack stands. If EFIGUY and his recommended AEM system get me on the road this summer, then I'll forget about this post so fast! lol
I am eager and maybe even getting a bit desperate to get this car on the road. But I have to say as of today, I dont feel like EFIGUY has taken advantage of me in anyway. I'm a educated car guy that understands what he is doing. Thanks for trying to defend me but I dont know I need it.
Now with all that said, When I get the system installed and get started I'll be sure to post updates. I dont think I'll be upset but if something goes wrong I promise i'll be the first one to come on here and let you all know if I was wrong to trust him.
Thanks again for the response everyone!

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Aaron(StonersTA), that says it all.
IROCZ1989, please tell us the difference between Aaron paying me for this system and you paying YOUR Holley guy because I don’t see a difference.
One more thing, why you think a Holley can’t sell and support any other system is beyond me. Do yourself a favor and look up Ben Strader. He teaches the west coast school for Holley, that’s where I went. They pay him to do that. Just an FYI, he’s a huge Haltech dealer as well, has their banners everywhere.
I'm done here.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

There is a difference. I didnt have a Fast or an Accel DFI system that had issues that someone told me to get rid of and replace with the Holley to solve my issues. The other issue is the OP sold the Commander to a guy in NY. If the system isnt working as it should why would anyone want to use it??? Or could they even use it?? Maybe you should get his contact info too. When he can't get it to work you can sell him an AEM system too. Sorry dont need to do any favors for myself thank you. You can tout all the names in the world. I never ever said you didnt know your stuff in efi, never. So you can end your dick measuring contest and name dropping at your first convenience. I'm glad your well versed. It's benificial for your customers. You can tune Holley and you say you sell Holley but have never seen you try to sell one. Either it was the DFI blows it away or the Aem does things it cant do and does them better. So when and on what combination is a Holley good to use on? And what does the AEM do on a TPI based car that a Holley HP cant do???

Just remember in this conversation I'm ultimatly a customer. This isnt a source of income for me. I'm not competing with you to sell systems. This is a hobby for me. Wether you do it for a living or extra money in retirement or whatever I dont care. I have nothing to gain here. You do. A sale. Fact.

What does Haltech banners have to do with this conversation again?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I dont think you will have an issue with him. I haven't heard or read any issues with his after sales or tuning exp. I'm sure he will get you up and running. Let us know how this turns out. Good luck and post pictures of the setup and ecu. Take care.

efiguy

iTrader: (2)

Done here for sure, Aaron will post his results. I'm confident that will take care of any and all doubt.

Thank you.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

First you were done. Now your really done. Next response will you be really, really done? Lol. Should be happy you sold a system on thirdgen and you dont even pay advertising fees here. This board dont run on welfare. How about you send in some money to thank the board owners for letting you sell as a dealer here.Btw Make sure to get the guy in NY contact info. He will need an AEM soon as well. You know the drill it just ain't going to cut it in 2019. Can I use that in my signature? Really like that line. Edit: here fixed my signature for you.

seiplentz

iTrader: (2)

I stopped reading most of this but to the OP you can add a innovate LM2 wideband O2 to the Holley 950 for under $200 and there is specific instructions for its setup available.. I used it myself.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Efiguy says that wont cut it in 2019, so it was replaced. No turning back now.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Update?

RS Chris

Get over yourself bud, everyone else has. We get it, you can be a huge dick. Now can you go away and let the guy build HIS car with HIS money. Who put you in charge of being TGO savior trying to point out what you perceive to be "bad deal" from someone you know nothing about?

And don't waste your meaningless time responding, I won't see it. It took 15 yrs, but, congratulations you're the first a-hole on my ignore list. There you were, now you're gone. Where did you go bro...bro?

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

I'm impressed. 15 years on TGO and I'm your first to be ignored? Wow. This is the first time I've ever seen Rschris post.. Take your own advice and get over yourself. No one needs to hear from Rschris,like your the end all be all. Save your self the trouble. I'm looking for an update. If that makes you uncomfortable, well....I guess that's just too bad for you isnt it.
Thing is you dont get the underlying situation in this thread. There are those in these forums that lurk here and on many other forums that sell to the members hush hush and never donate a dime to these forums. They have made some good sales here and bypass the fees that regular advertisers pay to support these forums. I guess in your welfare world everything is supposed to be free. Example? This board. So Rschris you can crawl back into the hole you came out of.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Any update EFIGUY? Looking for a complete 180 improvement story. Cant leave us hanging here.

Bill Chase

I know this is old, but feel it relevant to point out that the upgrade to pro firmware is still being done by Holley, you buy the 100 dollar or so disc that gives you a firmware update certificate.. I had mine done in January 2020

StonersTA

So this isnt the first i'm hearing this.
I also should say that I know I spent more money but I was able to sell the 950 and didnt lose out. It also didnt have a Wideband so I would have wanted to spend more money to upgrade it. So I decided rather than invest more money into it I'd just invest my money into a newer system with a wideband...

But It's good to know for when others ask! Thanks!!

Bill Chase

I actually bought the Holley wideband kit for 250 new old stock, open box and it gave me the upgrade certificate, but you could buy the disc, and a cheaper wideband that is scalable and get the same results. The kit I got is plug and play, ntk sensor that is still commonly available for 150 bucks should it fail.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Yes I mentioned it earlier in the thread that if you went to the Holley EFI forums you could see they were still supporting the 950.