keep up the good work! if these are going to be for sale anytime soon, i'll probably wait and get one of these. i need a new burner but i won't be able to sell that stuff once this comes out! HURRY!!

 

Well I've still got some cleaning up to do...but you will all be glad to know (as am I!)...that the prototype is working!

 

Thought I'd offer some more words of encouragement / nagging / annoyance...I can't wait to get my hands on one of these Prominators. I've been using the burner I have at work to handle my reprogramming duties for now so that I can save some bucks for once these babies are released. We're all behind ya Mr Bill...

 

So, what's needed as far as the laptop is concerned?

What do I need as far as floppy drive, serial port, etc?

Any specific rec's on brands, etc?

I'm considering new vs used.

Thanks

Bill

 

The only requirement is that it has a parallel port.

You don't need to spend the bucks on something new just for this, an older laptop will work fine. I just needs to be able to run Windows. The one I've been testing with is a Winbook 400MHz. I've also got a newer Compaq 1GHz with WinXP that I will test with also.

I'm also finding out that the quality of parallel port signals varies quite a bit from one PC to the next...that sux.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrBill


I'm also finding out that the quality of parallel port signals varies quite a bit from one PC to the next...that sux.
[/QUOTE

Care to elaborate?

 

just thought I'd ask. any progress? and will this work 4 the 165 ECM? The PROMinator is the best thing since 3rd gens were introduced!


Shawn

 

yeah, you wouldnt happen to know an BALLPARK idea of when it might be available...given everything goes as well as it has so far.

 

Give him some room... This stuff's a PITA big time...

 

Bill,

What kind of issues are you running into with the parallel port? I know I was able to tackle it from another angle a while back with that little Flash programmer I described earlier.

I didn't want to make it too complex with the staged 4-bit exertion going back to the PC, so I just set it up for being compatible with bidirectional ports. Used series termination (10k I think) coming from the parallel port going to the flash chip. That way, if you exerted the data or address info from the parallel port, it was available and ready to work with regardless of what was going on at the device programmer, and just in case the CPLD was called to active outputs at the same time, or the Flash chip was configured by the CPLD for CE+OE, the parallel port databus and Flash data lines (to which they were directly linked through the series resistors) wouldn't come into contention. The logic and Flash were strong enough to push the device end of the business around to whatever state, regardless of the parallel port data line states. Of course, you'd have to float the parallel port lines from software to pick up the exerted data in a readback. But the series termination helped out in more ways than one this way. I guess this is standard stuff though, I've seen it in many different public domain layouts for various devices.

Anyways, just thinking out loud. Don't know for sure about when the transition was made from unidirectional to bidirectional, but I think it was pre-286/386 for sure. Using some sort of series termination like this might help keep the bus clear of contention as well as simplifying your logic. You're probably way past this though, based on the earlier pics and discussions.

See ya...
-Craig

 

I'm getting so excited about this! Can't wait til its ready.

 

Craig, you have mail.

 

Oh, and yeah we've made some good progress lately. It's working pretty reliably from my laptop. So far I've used it with a 7747 and a 8746, both are happy with it. I'm still concerned about the inconsistency of the quality of parallel port signals. A working theory right now is that desktops just have crappy built parallel ports, whereas laptops are much cleaner. If this is the case then it shouldn't be a problem. I hope to get some more testing done regarding this issue tomorrow.

As for availability...all I can say is I'm putting every spare minute I can scrape up into it. I'm working full-time again so the night shift is about the only time I get to work on it, and some weekends. I really do wish I could give you guys a definate date right now, but I just can't accurately do that. I will tell you that it absolutely will not start shipping until I know for sure that it's a reliable design. Been down that road TOO many times! It is getting close though, I think we're over the major humps now.

 

Hey, just take your time and it will all pay off as im sure everyone on this part of the board has been waiting for something like this. Just keep working at it and Im sure you will figure it out man. I got my laptop all set up and ready to go.

 

Any news or progress?

 

Hi im bill becker
I have a 89 gta 5.7 w/tes headers,adjustable fuel reg,hypertech stage 2,march underdrive pulleys,msd,
ignition.-----next year cam head work
new chip!---- street car.
best time 1/4 mi 14.844 at 40 deg f oa
I have been doing research on whether
or not i can tune by myself.I made my scanner work for the first time last week
(winaldl).
my ecm is a 1227165 $6e

I was going to start out using the eeproms and the pocket programmer
but I stumbled on to this -prominator!

I am reading alot of posts and i am trying
to study a hack but the more i learn the more confused i get.


anyway i want to buy one like the rest of you guys.

 

Ok guys just an update...

I'm still fighting inconsistencies (sp?) in signal quality between computers (laptops included). Just by coincidence my laptop that I've been using mostly has really good signal quality, but every other one I've tried has pretty lousy signal quality. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't...not good enough. The problem seems to be with crosstalk between signals internal to the parallel port hardware itself (which can be nothing more than poor design of the PC's hardware). I'm working on adding a circuit that will make the prominator hardware all but immune to crosstalk effects on the incoming signals. Don't worry, this is not going to require a board redesign...I designed in the ability to add this circuit. All I need to do is solder the part down on the board and add a little CPLD logic, no big deal.

Stay tuned....

Bill

 

would it be feasible to set these cards up with a USB port that those of us with newer laptops (and XP) could use? i know nothing about hardware or circuit design and ask only cuz it popped into my head, but i'd rather pay you guys and extra $10 or $30 or whatever than go to radio crack for an adapter that might or might not work... just a thought...

 

We considered a USB interface...but it would have taken SO long to implement that we tossed the idea for now and just stuck with parallel.

 

Have you fellas thought of how you are going to produce them. I mean are you going to hand build everyone, or did you have something else in mind. Just wondering.

I am a stundent at OSU for ele. engineering, and i have been pondering the same idea,(prominator) with a few small differences....
but my knowledge and know/how... doesn't compare to moates and bill.....(yet) but if I see a problem i can solve, I will help, if i can.

 

WOW! I wish I had read this a week ago! This kind of stuff is what makes tuning a bit easier for newbies like myself!
Count me in once you get it all up and running. If it will work with an 8746 and the cheapest laptop I can find in a pawn shop, I'll bite for sure.

 

I thought it was about time for an update here.

I sent out three units for testing this week. One is working fine the other two are having some minor issues. Those two should be on the way back to me within the next couple of days to troubleshoot. I've also got two more going together here to do some of my own testing. I don't think the issues are serious, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on and can fix it pretty easily.

As far as production, it just depends on demand. For just one or two here and there I will most likely build myself. Now if someone comes along and wants a large number, well then I would probably send them out to an assembly shop.

Ken has one that's having some problems and was in the process of sending it back to me...but I just got a message from him just a few minutes ago that his dad had another heart attack and that he was on his way to the hospital. Let's all keep Ken and his dad in our thoughts and wish for the best.

Thanks,

Bill

 

Hey Mr Bill, is it time to start taking pre-orders yet? I bet you are going to sell more than one or two here and there. If you have a dollar amount set I will send you a check now and wait for a working model to show up at my door whenever you get them ready to ship and I really don't care how long it takes.

 

Me too. I can have a check or money order in the mail at the end of the month. Just let me know how much and where to send it.

 

 

Put me down for one, I'll buy one as soon as my budget allows.

 

I hope that Ken's dad is doing ok.

 

ops , wrong thread.

 

Put me down too! I was almost ready to shell out for a PPII and Moates adapter, but hell, I'll wait for this! Sounds absolutely bitchin, keep up the good work boys!
Drew
:hail:

 

Ok here's the latest...

Sent three units out for the first round of "field testing". Of course there were a few issues that needed to be worked out (idiot mistakes on my part actually). I got one of those three back a couple of days ago and I think I have the major problems worked out of it. I want to get the other two back and make sure they all three work consistently for me, then send them back out for another round of testing. Meanwhile I'm also working out some software bugs (and hopefully making that part of it work better LOL).

 

Theoretical question here...My wife found this good deal on a laptop at a garage sale. It was $25 for the laptop with Win 3.1. Now, if I were to migrate it over to...say...Win95, would the PROMinator work or would I need Win98 at a minimum?

 

I haven't tested it, but "theoretically" it is supposed to work with Win95.

 

MrBill and Ken-
You've heard it before, I'm sure but, excellent work!
This will really put chip programming capability into the hands of many more guys that have previously been held to purchasing chips off e-bay and whatnot due to the cost of equipment currently required.
Excellent work- whatever bounty comes your way is well deserved.
You probably have a pretty good feel for demand for this product- it seems to be tremendous. Do you still plan to produce the units yourself or farm them out?
I have no vested interest in electronics manufacture, that is not my aim, I just don't want to have to wait a long time to buy one of these!
Thanks for your efforts-
S-D

 

Update:

Second round of field testing (one unit so far) has been very positive. I'm still having minor issues with the larger bins (32K x 8 and up), but I know what's causing it and that will be easy to resolve. I think some tuning-up of the software and we're just about ready to go.

I'm planning to start building boards next week, I don't know if we'll have any ready to go before Christmas or not. If not it shouldn't be long afterwards.

Stay tuned....

 

Do we have a ballpark price yet? I want to start $aving now!

 

Standard version will probably end up about 175-ish. I'm not sure about Pro yet.

 

I would like to put my name in for one...I need to try to dial in my combo.

 

Another customer here. I'd be a little more in more interested in the program on the fly setup myself.

 

me too... i'm holding out for the pro version.

 

ummmm ....

has anyone else noticed that the acronym for Fast Automotive Real-Time Tunin System is:

F.A.R.T.T.S.?

ha ha ha ... i still want one!

 

Bonus points to Sean for paying attention in class! heheheh

FARTS was an idea very similar to what Craig is doing now. It was to be a combination of the PROMinator, Real-time datalogging (directly from the ECM databus, not from the slow ALDL data stream), and external user-accessable program ROM. We decided to just concentrate on the PROMinator part of it and develop that seperately, since that's what most people want. For now as far as what will be available on that site will be limited to the HAM and PROMinator. We may pursue FARTS sometime in the future, I dunno yet.

I did a little work on a description of PROMinator here http://misterbill.homeip.net/temp/aboutprominator.asp

Feedback welcome.

 

Dat's purdy!

 

Im sorry if I repeat anything but you guys were talking tech and I got .I have some questions:

1)this is a plug and go system?I put it in the car,plug it up to the laptop and drive around awhile and it automatically retunes the chip?

2)the difference between standard and pro is.......

3)I have a 305 now and will switch the block to a 350.It will automatically reset the chip for the difference?

Thanks.

 

1) NOOO! It will NOT auto-tune your ECM. What it does is eliminate the need for an EPROM eraser, EPROM programmer, and the EPROMs themselves. You still have to modify the bin file yourself. You use a laptop to send your bin file to the prominator, instead of to an EPROM.

2) The difference between standard and pro is that with the pro version you can leave the engine running and re-program the prominator with a new bin file. The ECM will pick up the new data without interruption. With the standard version you should turn the engine off while downloading a new bin. If the engine is running while downloading then the ECM will go into "limp home" mode, ONLY while downloading the bin file. Once the file is downloaded the ECM will start operating normally again with the new bin file, though it will probably store a "Bad EPROM" trouble code.

3) No. Again, Prominator is NOT an auto-tuner. You will still have to modify the bin file yourself, then download the new bin file to the prominator.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

you know, i always thought the 3rd gen fbody would become the next 67 camaro. they look good, they're cheap and plentiful and they're powered by the small block chevy ... the most popular performance engine in the world.

i think the reason they haven't achieved the level of acceptance and dominance enjoyed by ist gen fbodies is primarily the computer. it's complicated and hard to modify.

a month or so ago, one of the car mags had a blurb in it about third gens, becoming the next big thing. i hope that's so. i believe the most critical factor in that happening will be an inexpensive, bulletproof, dead-simple way of modifying the ecm's programming.

mr. bill, i believe your prominator could be the heart and soul of that system. you could be to third gens what zephran cochran was (will be?) to warp travel (trekkies will understand this). ha ha ha.

i think you're sitting on a gold mine. look how many hypertech power programmers they're selling for obd2 cars. look how many people come on this board and try to figure out an easy, simple way to make their cars go faster. i've been trying to figure out how to datalog and burn chips for months, and i'm still lost. people have been helpful, but it's over my head, and i believe i represent a large, if not dominant segment of the potential market for this product.

i'd like to make a few suggestions, if i may.

first, understand what you may have. there was a piece on one of the news magazine shows last week about a guy who was trying to get on the home shopping network to sell his product, a toothbrush cleaner called the germ terminator. in the story, they mentioned the woman who came up with these slim, felt-covered hangers that take up very little closet space, don't let the clothes fall off and don't put hanger marks in the shoulders of the clothes. they've sold ten million of them. ten million. she's a housewife, not an inventor ... and now she's a multi-millionaire. every new product started with an idea in someone's head ... believe in what you have.

second, protect what you have. as much as i want a prominator, if you haven't started the patent process (correctly, with a patent attorney), you shouldn't let anyone get their hands on one. last year, i read about the woman who came up with that thing women stick in their ponytails to make weird buns and things in their hair. she started selling them without a patent. people copied the product and began selling them, cutting into her sales, and she's now involved in a long, drawn out series of lawsuits that she may not win.

another example is me. i'm in radio. years ago, the radio station i was working at began a program with the local police department where parents could bring their children by and have them fingerprinted. from doing that, i got the idea of giving parents a booklet like a passport, with the child's description, vital information, fingerprints and picture along with emergency phone numbers and instructions on what to do if (*** forbid), their child ever went missing.

the instamatic cameras to take the passport sized photos were really expensive, so i approached a camera manufacturer to see if they'd be willing to donate cameras for this worthy cause. after going back and forth with them for several months, they declined. i didn't think anything of it and threw the file of correspondence i had away.

a year or so later, i got a promotional package from a company using the same name i'd come up with for the program, marketing the exact same product i'd described and even provided mocked-up samples of. the company representative who'd sent me the package (one of the founding partners), was the same person i'd originally contacted in the marketing department of the camera company. he took my idea and ran with it, and i could prove nothing. he's a millionaire ... i'm a schmuck.

the patent process is not that involved, and once you've correctly filed your application, you're protected.

i have some product suggestions as well, but i'll do them in another post. this is turning into war and peace.

 

all good, safe ideas.

A couple of things come to mind immediately, however, that may separate this area of inventive exploration from the ones Sean mentions:

1) this is a very different market than that of clothes hangers or child-identification passports. Everyone uses clothes hangers and there are many parents around the world. Relatively, there aren't nearly as many GM C3 and C4 ECM's out there, and of those that do exist, only a fraction of their owners would be willing to delve into ECM programming. Its not for the faint-of-heart and there even at its simplist there is a *steep* learning curve. It's not the safest market for a larger company (or someone out to make genuine money). Hypertech markets for many, many vehicles and have a lot of different products which brings them well beyond the scope of the DIY EFI hacker.

2) Bills ideas are protected by Prior Art. As are Craig's. Of course, a bona fide patent is always a good, safe (and expensive) idea.

Great post Sean!

Mark

 

Sean,
What Mark, Craig and Bill are doing (to borrow from one of Craig's earlier posts) IS rocket science, but datalogging your ECM isn't. Have you noticed how there are lots of people on this board who can't spell as well as you, but can make their ECM's sing LOL.

So start another post, list what you've tried, the ECM, mask and BIN you have, the cable and laptop/OS you're using, and keep reading and asking dumb questions till you know enough to make your ECM respond to your earnest enquiries

Having a Prominator, Autoprom, etc, is no use if you haven't learned the basics.

I think the other thing to note in addition to Mark's sage advice, is that all these marketable devices are benefitting from the DIY culture, and succeed only if they respect that. There would be no market without a whole lot of prior effort that people (you know who you are!) have put in hacking, re-ordering (eg the .ECU format and all the .ECU's out there, the many scan tools, the library of .BINS, etc) and "public domaining" what was probably patentable information owned by one of the largest companies in the world. This work has been done mostly gratis, and you'll note how commercial products are kept off this board. So all the neat products you see on this board are likely to keep their owners driving thirdgens, not Ferraris.

John

 

I agree that a patent is a good idea, and we will probably pursue that very soon...but not for reasons of profitibility or anything like that. Sure, I hope to make a few bucks. I've spent enough sleepless nights that I think I deserve that (I know Craig and Mark will agree LOL). But, the reason for patenting would be so that some money-hungry big corp. doesn't say "hey why didn't we think of that...go steal the idea and we'll build it and charge an arm and a let for it...". The goal here is to make these things reasonably affordable to you guys, while making it worth while to us at the same time. I just wouldn't want the big guys to patent it themselves then make it ridiculously expensive.

 

All I know is that the PRO version will instantly turn the stock GM ECM into DFI. That, in itself, is absolutely incredible. I really like the idea of putting the ECM back under the dash and never programming another chip ever again; never swapping chips ever again; never shutting the car down to do a simple change ever again. Very sweet.

Tim

 

No flames or bad tidings meant here...just an opinion. Take it for what you will.
Hmmm...I'll disagree a little here. Being a newbie to the 3rd Gen domain, I'll grant you that ECM tuning is not an easy thing to learn. I am still having hell trying to read through the code. I learned a LITTLE bit when I was a kid working with an old Commodore VIC-20 and Motorola 6502 Assembly Language. (What ever happened to Commodore???) If it weren't for that, I'd be completely lost.
Anyway...if someone has a fair amount of experience working with EFI on a basic level and a good bit of knowledge of how an engine actually works on its most basic levels, that person can learn pretty quickly how to make an EFI engine work the way it is supposed to work...not the way the manufacturer sent it off the build line.
Most of my experience in EFI engines lies in simple stuff...TPS adjustments, component replacements, wiring and installation of aftermarket EFI (i.e. Holley ProJection), and the nuts-and-bolts of how to get EFI on an engine that shouldn't have it in the first place (1979 AMC 360). There is a lot of research that goes into just getting the stuff bolted up and put in the right place. I definitely understand that getting it to run right is the most difficult part of it all.
My point is that you don't have to be a software engineer to be able to make it all work. Guys like Mr. Moates, Mr. Bill, and Mr. Mangus have done all of the HARD work for newbies like myself. Stuff like TunerPro and WinALDL makes tuning much easier for newbies. The basics can be learned as one progresses through any given project. The PROMinator and the AutoPROM are two examples of hardware that will allow newcomers to have a REALLY easy time with the tuning process. These pieces of equipment eliminate one LARGE piece of the puzzle...PROM burning. Software like TunerPro makes the whole thing user-friendly by putting everything in an easy-to-read format. Experimentation, in my opinion, is the best way to learn to do things like this. If you screw it up, push the proverbial RESET button and try again. I am certain that making my Jeep work the right way will take a good bit of time...but the time spent will be well worth the effort.
With that said, I'll say that I see one really cool thing going on here...cooperation between two guys that should be in fierce competition. Earlier posts from Mr. Bill and Craig Moates didn't give me the impression that they were in competition...I'd almost go so far as to say that they are in corroboration. I applaud that kind of relationship...my hat is off to the both of you. The work that you guys have put into your respective products is more than commendable...as is the fact that you are willing to offer it to idiots like me for much less than you could sell it on the open market. If the two groups involved in these two products had really worked on the same product, the results could have been absolutely amazing. (Food for thought, guys...)
Gentlemen, get your stuff patented and/or copyrighted. For stuff of this caliber, I'd do it. If you don't, some jackass-kid right-out-of-college GM engineer is liable to see your designs, copy them, and either give them to GM to patent or retire off of what he makes from the intellectual property rights on his own.