Is there any interest in creating a Super ARAP for the MAF guys? Or has is been done yet?

 

im in for sure. i have the autoprom and the weather is nice so i can check to see what is working well and what is not. anyone else in?

 

what exactly is a SUPER ARAP?

 

I'm just starting scanning and monitoring my 87 IROC, and I'll probably do my first burn tomorrow. I'll help any way I can, but be warned: I'm a newbie

Everything I'm reading points towards using the ARAP bin as a base, so I'd like to learn everything I can about it.

 

Any updates yet guys? I ended up changing my o2 sensor, my oil, and installing my underdrive pulleys today, so I didn't get a chance to do anything.

Tomorrow, I'm doing my diff fluid, installing my ripper shifter, I'll solder in my ziff socket, do some more data logging, and then start my burning. I can't wait

 

Well, lets all start thinking of things that need to be corrected.

The Super AUJP (for speed density users) is an awesome starting .bin

I just figured we could all make a Super ARAP.bin for the MAF guys.

How about raising MAF gm/sec threshold from 45 to 55 for a start?

Do the MAF .bins need the CCP stuff changed in it?

 

Hi. The MAF limit Airflow vs RPM has to be put into check
Ed

 

Kind of a newbie tip here, but I noticed that I had roughly a 9% difference between my INT's and BLM's, so I increased my MAF tables 9% thru the entire band. It brought me down from about 158 BLM's to 128 consistantly, and roughly 132 at idle.

Anyone have tips on increasing the maf scalar values? The top 2 numbers in each of my maf tables are topped out, and I'm reading that adjusting the scalars will allow me to tune a higher range. I'm thinking the best way would be to increase the scalars say 10%, and then lower my maf tables 10%. Then tune it from there. That would give me more headroom without messing up my tune, correct?

 

I have another observation about the ARAP and a few others the fifth MAF table scalar is CF. Which is 207 cfm. This a far cry from 255 . Can we just change the scalar and values using grumpys method AKA MAF Final Answer.

 

hmm, I must have missed that article when I was reading thru. I'll have to print that one up tonite.

 

I don't suppose that the Super AUJP BIN would work with $61 (1228746 TBI) code, would it?

 

No... different ecms...

 

What's CF? I can't find it in the tuning abbreviations lists anywhere... Binary value of that scalar field perhaps? Probably. I hate having to try to look up letters in important posts before I understand what the poster is trying to say. CCP was one of them I had to look up too, LOL!

I have my ARAP running my cammed 305 very well, though it runs a tad to rich in warm conditions yet. One more season and I should have it cleared up. I'll be watching this thread closely.

 

and maybe since Were on the MAF scale We could intergrate the Arap With a ANZA or some Manual Bin So us MAF 5-Speed Guys could finally have a great BIN. I will Be Interested in helping any way I can.

 

Who is going to put this ARAP all together?

 

You?

Sure as heck not me, I'm still the newbie

 

We could each take our own starting bin and try the modifications together then post results and data logging. Lets start by listing our mods to the cars and what you want to get out of the tune. For the guy w the stick I think its a switch and maybe reading Grumpys IAC Final Answers to find out what has to be done.
FWIW Lets find out whos using/got what.
Ed

89 Z28 - 355 CID 10:1 Forged Pink Rods, 69 Forged Crank, 4 Bolt Splayed Caps, File Fit Rings, Dart S/R Torquers, MSD Wires, MAF w/ Screens and 1 w/o, AFPR, 30# SVO@46psi , 58mm BBK TB, MSD 6AL, Slp 1 5/8 into 3 Flowmaster C/B, 3" High Flow CAT, K&N's, 2800 Stall, 700R4, Vette Servo, No-Yo-Yo Valve Body Kit, Aluminum DriveShaft, POS 2.77 Posi, 7165 ECM & Adapter for 7730
Single Roller GMPP Timing Chain to avoid knock noise, LT4 HOT CAM
I am going to set my base timing to 8 BTDC and TPS to .68 (.71 was too high) I read those were good Suggested Settings to Start. :rockon:


IF we are fortunate enough to have Grumpy, RBob, Glen, Funstick, TRAXXION, or any of the GURUs take an intrest, or even Pitty us ,were not proud, that would rock. I know those guys are in a league of their own and could tell us little thing that make good great.

 

Where did you hear/read this? I always read it is important to have you TPS properly adjusted for the car to run well

My setup:

89 GTA, L98, Vortec Heads, SDPC Base, Stock Runners/plenum, stock cam, 1.6 RRs, Edelbrock 1 5/8 Shorties, No cat, Dynomax IPipe, 2002 Camaro SS take off muffler, Vette 2100stall, Shift kit, 3.23 and suspension work.

I started with the ARAP and tweaked from there. I am still getting a little bit of knock that I will work on as soon as the car comes out of storage.

I would love to help out in any way possible, so count me in.

 

1985 IROC converted to 165 ECM, 350 cid, Trickflow heads, Crane roller tip rockers, Summit flat tappet cam (204/214 @.050), SLP runners, SLP headers, Thrush 3" cat-back, Ported plenum, Accel 24# injectors, Accel AFPR.

Running ARAP modded for injector size, TCC lock/unlock & cranking fuel.

 

The 6Ev011.ecu only has 5 of the 6 Maf scalars defined. You can define the 6th scalar at address 5EA. This will display a hex value of FF which is 255.

In order to view the effect of the changed scalar, you will need to change the 'factor' value in the Maf table ecu definition.

The factor is the scalar value in dec/256.

 

It is a lot more than a Switch to set for a 5-speed bin. All the throttler followler stuff, Tcc stuff, and a lot more. Easier to start with a manuall bin and Edit from There. Maybe we could do two Bins for us MAF Guys one Auto and one Manuall

Just my .02

 

As I said in an above post, I'll do anything I can to help.

I just started tearing into my car tonite, and it should be up within a couple weeks.

It is:
305 shortblock
Lunati cam 54743 (LSA 112, int lift .471, exh lift .480, approx 225 duration)
edelbrock victor jr. that I'll be converting to MPFI using 165 ECM, harness, injectors, etc...
port/polish stock heads, three angle valve job, back-cut valves 30 deg.
Gutted air box
ported/ polished TB
Flow-tech shorties
true duals following stock routing, glasspacks
Holley annihilator digital ignition and coil, jacobs 8mm wires
All emissions items removed

After I get more confident in my tuning abilities, I plan on descreening my maf, and porting it as per Grumpy's writeup

I plan on having to heavily tune idle, and I also suspect that I'll have to heavily work my MAF tables and scalers to keep my blm's where they need to be. After I get that squared away I'll mess with my timing tables, and AE.

I also plan on seeing how far I can get using my stock 19lb injectors. Any thoughts on that?

 

WOW!!! I found a spark table which goes hand in hand for Iron Heads and it kicks *** in my car seems to be real close w/ minimal knock. I believe it's the GTA Table. The TPS seems to work great @ .680V in my tune probaly making up for the larger TB58mm;.71 did seem a bit much.Thats just my 2 cents. Thanks for the reply on the scalar. I just saw the sixth table that mode it all clearer. My bin might have not been a pure ARAP.While tuning I found the MAF tables didn't line up perfectly ie the 1 table max was not the same as the 1st entry on the second till the fourt then they lined up. Anyone else find this or? I lined them and am going to scan.
Later
Ed





Does anyone know what the BPW flag does in the ARAP code and the other bits #3 and #7 do?
I DO HAVE A WEE BIT OF KNOCK BUT WILL clip a few degress in the lwr lv8 vs rpm that should cure it . Seems to be caused by the TCC locking

 

that is the stock L98 '89 Spark advance table...

I started with the ARAP bin and used all the SA tables from the stock '89 bin...seems to work best thus far with a tad bit of knock that I'll work out this spring.


Can someone explain this in simpler terms...sorry still pretty new to this stuff!

 

An *.ecu file is a template used by the programing software that will tell it how to display data at a given address in the code.
The location 5EA is not defined in that ecu file so you can't see that data in your editor. You can simply add that location to your ecu so you can see it. For the number to make sense, you have the ecu do some math on the number in that location so it means something. ex. 5000 rpm is not listed as 5000 in the code. It's listed in Hexadecimal which is 1388. But that is to many digits so it is reduced even lower to a number <= 255. So when a you see something like C8 displayed, it means nothing. But converted, it is 5000.
Note C8 maybe incorrect. I'm still learning and I don't know if you use 255 or 256 to do the conversion. You could use a Hex editor and look at location 5EA too. But then you wouldn't need to ask if you new that all ready.

 

I think its not defined becausethe sixth scalar ,which is, FF equals 255 is the MAX FLOW that the maf can read with a 8 bit cpu computing it so its already covering the MAF'S min flow to MAX limit.

Poncho Is you reason for descreening the MAF this or just to remove restriction because I don't think its all that restrictive to be worth the work unless it increases the range/resolution.
Does anyone know for sure that if we descreen the MAF does it read enough less to effectivly increase the resolution by allowing it to read more air as less allowing us more control!? Does that hold water? I don't want to be like ski_dwn_it and just throw fuel at it I'd rather fool the cpu like a ford recal via maf VOLTS ARE LESS THEN RESCALE the MAF tables and ALLOW IT TO fuel correctly from idle to atleast 5000RPM.
Ed

 

Thanks, I had a feeling that's what that meant. I went ahead and played with the ECU file before reading this post and saw exactly what you now explain.

But are we sure as to the reason the ECU doesn't have this defined?

Sorry but I don't understand what you are asking, can you please rephrase?

I don't currently have a descreened MAF on my car. Once the snow melts and i can get my car out again with the ported plenum/runners and CAI, I will then tune idle and part throttle for as close to BLM/INT 128 as I can, then I will install a 2nd MAF that is descreened and see what differences it may create. In theory my BLM/INT should show lean(>128) and try to richen the mixture, no?

If so I will then proceed to MAF recalibration.

 

Sorry I just skimmed this post...so I may repeat some things...but in the spirit of the SD project that traxion headed up...here is what I change in the MAF code when I start on it

Shut off EGR
Lower Fan on Temps
Tweak the Knock Recovery and attack rates
Lower the %TPS for PE mode
Lower Fuel Cutoff RPM

That's all I can think of for now. I haven't been keeping up on the latest trends in Chip burning...so what I do may be 'dated'...

 

Poncho by descreening the maf . "I" BELIEVE that the sensor is measure more air at the same voltage. Now if this is the case then the sensor has less resolution. but the tables have more based on a WIDER Sensor range. Bosch orig measured 255 CFM= Calculated as STOCK w/ screens. NoW W/o screens and maybe some porting!? The measured 255 is really 300ish CFM allowing the CPU to use the sensor longer before going Alpha or some other dumb mode heavily table reliant.
This modding would make values would go haywire. Needing to be totaly tweaked.LOL !

Ed

YEAH Sounds right too me.



***----ONEBINKY? ----*****

After I get more confident in my tuning abilities, I plan on descreening my maf, and porting it as per Grumpy's writeup

Where is this can you link it.

 

I agree....so that's why after I finish all my other mods to do in the air intake side of things and my BLM/INT are +-128, I will then proceed to install the descreened MAF I have and start "tweaking"

Should we list what we have done to our ARAP bins thus far?

 

I've got a pretty nice ARAP.bin with several needed changes that I have added to it. If someone wants to host it, PM your e-mail address and I'll send it to you. When you get it, reply to this thread with the link so everyone can download it for eval / changes / etc.....

Maybe Traxion will host it?

 

Poncho said he'd host it. I'll e-mail it to him tommorow morning. Once he uploads it and posts the link, then eveyone can download it for eval / and to make changes.

 

Is it going to happen ?
Ed

 

i have yet to receive it...as soon as I do...it will be up and available...do you guys want a repository for these bins? I can set something up real quick to upload and download...

 

Is that all? Did it go out with a wimper! 1bad why don't U post the bin at www.moates.net/fileman???
Ed

 

1Bad never sent me anything.....i am still willing to host if needed.

 

What it seems to do, is remove some of the mechanical filtering of the MAF sensor, so that makes for a snappier throttle response. Lowering the filtering rates in the code seem to do about the same thing. Playing with the filtering rates are really a subjective thing. You can also play with the LV8 scaler and get similiar results. I say that, from only limited experience in playing with the filtering rates on some other similiar items. While it is a restriction on some of the high HP engines, for most folks, it ain't enough to get in a twist about, IMO. MIke Pitts on his GN documented about 35 HP on back to back dyno runs. He was running a SD system, and was trying to keep it stock appearing and had a MAF just sitting in the intake tract. No screens as I recall.
Looking at the PE AFR corrections, they're based on RPM, and TPS. While the ecm is also looking at the MAF, if the MAF was really correct, and the PE AFR accurate, there wouldn't be a need for the TPS and RPM corrections, IMO.

 

Heh, dredging up old stuff trying to find bits and pieces of info:

Descreened you’ll be getting more airflow while the ecm will be seeing less, the end result is that you run lean at idle and top end and relatively normal in the midrange.

I have both (bought a car with 2 of every sensor, so I decided to cut off the screens, blend the inlet/outlet and make it pretty). With the stock MAF (stock L98, cold air/cat back, stock chip) it runs the fastest (13.7-13.8@98)with about 49psi fuel pressure and is rich everywhere except WOT, with the ported MAF it runs the fastest (high 13.5’s @ 100) at about 52-54psi and is fine at idle and WOT but rich in the midrange. It runs almost .2 faster in the ¼ with the ported maf (ecm reset between runs, optimum fuel pressure each way and about 15minutes cool down).

And yes, it does seem much crisper without the screens, it almost feels soggy/heavy when you put the stock maf back.

FWIW, with larger injectors (42pph, long story, has to do with future changes) the stock maf runs OK with the injector constant set to match the injectors. The ported maf as some strange problems: it doesn’t really run right most of the time unless you set the injector constant to between 34 and 36pph, and then once it’s warm it does some strange surging when you let go of the throttle like coming to a stop/turn around 800-1000rpm (it feels like it’s trying to die and then surges back, when you’re coming to a stop this ends up being a problem since the brake pedal gets harder and softer as this happens).

 

I just read thru this post, and had to ask a question. I have been using an ARAP modfied bin for several years, and I have messed with the MAF tables a bit. They are kind of trickey as you all know. I have a descreened MAF, but that is all I did to it. I almost think now, after dong much reading on the subject, that maybe it wasn't the best thing to do. The screens really do protect the delicate wires in there. And now I see that GMS has a new MAF (adjustable??) for L98 TPI cars.

Now here is my question. Maybe you guys could post how you change the scalers. I have read that this is a must do, but if you just have if you just have TC or any other bin editor, how do you adjust them? I am pretty happy with my part throttle tune. I just got a LM1 so now I can get serious with PE and WOT stuff.

 

Heh, I would love if someone posted a straight response about MAF scalars here.

In my case (based on what I read in the archives here) I expected them to change what the upper limit of the MAF tables would be, but through some experimenting it does not change the largest value that you can put in the table, so I can only assume that it changes how the value is used, by how much and how to keep things correct from table to table I don’t know.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could see a nice graph of all 6 MAF tables put together and edit them from there?

 

This thread explains the MAF scalar and max airflow tables along with the math used:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...MAF+AND+scalar

RBob.

 

Build an ecm bench, and then run thur the numbers.
Trying to make small changes, and see the results on something as dynamic as a datalog is about impossible, IMO. If your really looking to see what's going on.

I spent alot of time trying to figure them out and do cals., and a couple hours on the ecm bench *jelled* it all.

Not to mention with the right software, you can see things like AE, and be able to isolate MAF AE from TPS AE, etc, etc....

 

Now that you have a WB, you can start at square one, and go thru all the tables, and get it *right*. Well, close, anyway.
Descreening it, and if you've changed anything in the way the air tract or inside the engine means going thur each area of the MAF and making sure the fueling is correct. Then you might want to work on the LV8 scaling.

But, again, if your really looking to get things correct, the code just doesn't really do much more, then letting you just get close.

 

Digging up an old post.....

Did anything ever come of this "Super ARAP" I have been running the stock ARAP for a while now...I just got a W/B and now have really started tuning.

I am having a big problem with after start enrichment...as in, it appears there isn't any way to adjust it. Is there a modified .ecu file out there that allows for adjustment in this area.

I have noticed that when I start the car, I see a field in my datalogger that shows "commanded ARF" and I can see it decrease to 14.7:1 as the car runs......It just decreases to fast for my car to stay running until it's warm. Anybody else have these problems and what are you doing to fix it? I am getting tired of holding my foot on the gas for the first minute or so after the car starts.

 

Nothin here, I gave up on trying to get the maf to work right with my custom manifold/lumpy cam, and I did the MAP/808 swap and have been playing with that.

 

onebinky...how's that conversion working out for you? I have been doing some reading about it...not sure if I wanna go that route or just get a 730 ecm.

 

It's working great so far. It's much more responsive to the odd reversion pattern that my cam and single plane manifold have. The maf just took to long to respond to all the changes going on in the manifold, whereas the MAP picks up any vacuum variance instantly and accounts for it.

The only thing I don't like is that there is only 160 baud ALDL available for the automatics (all I can find at least).

The ECU file for the 808 is amazing though, you should download a copy of it and check it out.

When I get the time and a few extra bucks though, I probably will go with the 730 ECM just because it is much more widely known and alot of other people can help me with my problems. With the 808 there are only a few people I can find that are knowledgable with it. Plus the 730 has the faster baud rate

Why not try the 808 first since you're gonna need a MAP sensor anyways, and then if you want just swap to the 730?

 

Has this gone anywhere?

I emailed tunercat so he could maybe add a table to raise idle speed in gear higher than the 800 limit.