FireDemonSiC

Just out of curiosity, why is the commanded "cAFR" value still at 13.0 when I have the open loop table set to the 15s?

In fact, I notice that it's never budged from that number throughout this entire ordeal.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I pointed that out earlier in reference to the targeted AFR, that's why I said to run CL as a test.

... the more important question though, is why is there a dip in your idle area.

- Rob

RJ IROC

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes, those Open Loop targets are already preset to 13.0 (Lean Idle Limit) and 16.20 (Max Lean AFR). The key here is that it also surges in CL too, which is set to 14.7. If you watch the Datalog though of the Open Loop 950-RPM log, the AFR being reported by the wideband is solid at 18 AFR, it never goes to 13.0. As the Wideband deviates though during the surge, it goes back and forth between 18.5 and 18.6 while the RPM surges between 800-RPM and 1500-RPM, and the kPa swings between 32 and 55. That dip in the VE is more than likely causing that surge, because when he raises the idle, the kPa and RPM move, and it becomes more stable. He needs to flatten that area out. He might have accidentally had the VE Learn on during idle at one point, and saved it by accident...

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

It was flat at one time. I intentionally programmed that dip because it seems to be a common practice among tuners to put the idle into a "bowl" area. The way it's explained is that the extra fuel around the idle cells will help direct the map back to the desired idle cell if it attempts to deviate.

Can remove it no problem.

FireDemonSiC

Better? I'm taking a trip to the hardware store to get a longer alternator bolt so I can finish mounting up my GZ vacuum pump, as well as use my last $5.99 Subway footlong coupon.

Will post up how it runs in a few hours.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

For reference, this is usually what happens when we put a rather healthy cam into the engine. It will get rich down low, and lean up top, and the VE Learn will only correct for so much in terms of low RPM. Bob discusses this on page two of his tuning guide, where he shows a before and after picture of a cammed engine just after the VE Learn. The first picture will show where the Learn took place after the cam install, where the unreachable RPM in terms of Learn is still too high (surge), and then of course the after picture where he flattens it out underneath the targeted idle RPM to smooth out the idle to perfection (scroll down to the center of the page)...

http://dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php.

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

I never let a VE learn touch any of the low speed VE table. I adjust that manually.

RJ IROC

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

... with a non-heated narrowband hells no. But you have a wideband though, so why not take advantage of the O2 learning in the easy, non threatening (knock related) areas.

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

I let the VIE learn map the high speed table almost entirely. That's why you'll see a bit of a dip around 2400-2600rpm. I didn't do that. That's where the car cruises on the highway.

Also, just for the record, my narrowband is a heated 3 wire ACDelco.

FireDemonSiC

Gentlemen, the moment we've been waiting for.


That's 950. Pretty sure it will do 900 but it started raining. I think the MF sounds mean! What do you guys think?

RJ IROC

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

FireDemonSiC

Did what you guys said. Started with an L98 BIN, then copied over the spark advance and VE settings, set the BPC to 168, copied over the battery offset and small PW injector settings as well as a few other basic items such as fan on/off temperature. Still needs some tweaks (Sags when the fans kick on) but we're making progress.

I captured a datalog if you want to have a look at it. Also notice how much higher the IAC counts at idle are without me ever having touched the throttle screw...

FireDemonSiC

Subway club. Footlong on flatbread. Double meat with pepperjack. Toasted with lettuce, tomato, green peppers, onions, spinach, banana peppers, pickles and black olives. Topped off with chipotle sauce, light mayonaise and honey mustard.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

FireDemonSiC

Just opened the throttle screw up a tad more and tried 900 idle. SHE'S SMOOTH AS A BABY'S ***! I think it would idle even lower but I'm perfectly happy with the 900. MF sounds MEAN!

Also changed the park to drive steps from the stock L98 BIN of 0 to 20. That fixed the sag going into gear and the surge/idle hanging high coming out of gear.

More adjustments to come but SHE'S DOING GREAT FELLAS! Thanks for the help!!!

RJ IROC

FireDemonSiC

I'm currently running the stock L98 settings. I haven't touched anything IAC or spark related other than park to drive steps, fan on bump steps and obviously the SA table/idle state/initial SA.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You're welcome buddy. She sounds great, enjoy the car...

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

From a wee little .030 over 305 in the workshop at my old townhouse to where we are today. For a weekend street car, I'm happy. I'd like to see at least 1hp/per cubic inch to the wheel out of this setup.

Honestly don't regret one dollar I spent on this build

FireDemonSiC

Alright guys. Need your help with something else now.

Idle is good, but I'm having an issue with the fans kicking on. Whenever the fans turn on OUT of gear, the engine sags and then surges for a few seconds before settling. IN GEAR, the fans turn on and it barely skips a beat.

The stock L98 BIN had the fan on bump steps set to ZERO. I tried 15 and then even 20. Didn't seem to correct the issue. In an eclipse of this problem, the stock L98 BIN would also result in an engine sag when placing the transmission in gear, and then coming out of gear would result in the idle hanging high. I increased the park to drive bump steps from 1 to 20 and it completely fixed this issue.

Here is a datalog of the engine idling OUT of gear and the fans turning on. I left the datalog running until the engine hit the fan off temp. Anything worth noting?

RJ IROC

So, not sure if I imported that correctly into excel, but the wideband value is zeroed out and the o2 values are 71 most of the time. Not sure if that's me or something else going on.

There's MAP AE coming on when the fan kicks on. Could be causing a rich condition. IMO, port engines need little to no MAP AE due to their proximity to the chamber. I'd recommend eliminating MAP AE or reducing it as much as possible. TPS AE is more than adequate for port injected engines. You can build AE into the fuel map too with some careful increases in the VE table.

If your set on using MAP AE (I zeroed mine, and it runs great/responds to electrical loads just fine), you can still do it. It's just difficult tuning both AE tables and getting it dialed.

I'd be interested to see how the AFR changes when the fan kicks on. Injector voltage offsets could be rearing their ugly head in the event of a voltage drop, causing a change in AFR.

FireDemonSiC

Thank you. I will try that recommendation with the AE.

I'd have to see your excel but when imported into excel through a CSV, there are extra things that will show up such as the second wideband and the fuel pressure (Ignore fuel pressure for now as the transducer is not currently plumbed). I believe I might even have my nitrous pressure in there but don't recall.

RJ IROC

Another thing to try is more spark advance on the SA correction to compensate for the load. Once it gets that 5 degrees of advance at 50 rpm below target idle speed, it isn't going to get any more the further the RPMs drop with your current settings. You could try adding a few degrees at the 100 or 150 cells on the idle low comp table. That way, you keep your buttery smooth idle, and it can compensate for any significant electrical load that brings RPMs down.

I'd still recommend monitoring AFRs during the RPM bog. It's tough to tune the VE tables in that area, as the MAP suddenly increases as the IAC bumps up. It doesn't linger in those cells for very long once it recovers. You may have to add/remove some fuel in the higher MAP areas at 700-900 RPM.

FireDemonSiC

Hey guys. I have some more logs for you all. I'm really hoping someone here can spot the issue because at this point, I'm stumped.

I'm still battling the fan on problem. I've attached a file that contains FOUR datalogs to reference against each other in the hopes of spotting the issue. The logs are as follows:

- fan on.dat: Engine idling out of gear when fans turn on. Sags, and then shoots up in RPM then surges for a few moments before settling
- fan on in gear.dat: Engine idling in gear. This is the smoothest of them all. Fans kick on and the engine barely skips a beat. It is consistent this way as long as the transmission is placed IN GEAR

Now, for the next two logs, I did make a few corrections. RJ, I took your advice on bumping the SA compensation values. I increased both low and high tables above 100rpm. One thing I noticed watching the above out of gear log was that the RPM would shoot way up. I think a little more high SA compensation would help catch this. Also, I noticed that when the RPM would shoot up, it would hang around 1400-1500rpm in the 35ish KPA range and you could watch the AFR start to go rich. I believed this to be a contributor to the surging, so I lowered VE in these areas. SA compensation values for this tweaked BIN and the next two datalogs are as follows:

Idle LOW comp:
0 - 2.11*
50 - 3.16*
100 - 3.87*
150 - 4.92*
200 - 7.03*

Idle HIGH comp:
0 - 0*
50 - 2.11*
100 - 3.52*
150 - 3.87*
200 - 5.27*

With those settings programmed into the BIN, the issue seemed to get a tad better but is now a bit more sporadic. As in, one time the fans will turn on and be fine, then the next it will have the same problem. The other two logs are as follows:

fan on lean.dat - engine idling out of gear. I thought I had it with this one, because notice how smoothly the fans come on. It's about the same as the IN GEAR log
fan on lean 2.dat - engine idling out of gear. In this log, the tune was not modified and the engine was never shut off from the first fan on lean log. It was just taken immediately on the next fan-on cycle. Notice the big difference between the two.

Also worth mentioning, I also tried the BIN with the same VE table from the first two logs, but the SA compensation values from the second two logs. The results were same. Near perfect engagement, then a crap show on the next cycle. As if the VE reduction made very little change yet the SA compensation values seemed to have made a dent.

Also worth mentioning, for now I did not make any changes to the MAP AE simply because it is present in the stock L98 BIN. Must be there for a reason and I don't want to introduce too many variables at once. Also FYI, I'm running LS1 fans both wired together to come on at the same time, with their own relays. Fan on bump steps are set to 20 in all logs. I also notice a full 1V drop measured in all of the logs when the fans first turn on. Do you guys see anything? Because I'm stumped.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

There is no way around it, you need a dual fan relay harness. Grand National guys suffer from the same problem when upgrading to dual fans, they buy a kit from Caspers Electronics, as this will keep the increased electrical load on the two separate relays allowing for a smooth transition. There is simply no way to tune out of that problem unless your ECM came with dual fans, like the '7730. You'll hear stories of guys on here being successful when upgrading to two fans from one, but this always involved a separate temp sensor unit for the secondary fan, or a dual fan relay harness for both being triggered at the same time.

- Rob

RJ IROC

Alright, I'm gonna take a stab at this. First off, are you running the P4 or the normal EBL Flash? I'm opening the .dat files in the WUD, and exporting to a .csv. I'm still missing the wideband reading, and what should be the NB o2 sensor appears to be the pressure transducer you previously mentioned. If I'm messing up somehow, let me know. Otherwise, if I saw a screenshot of the datalogs centered about where the fan kicks on, that would help. If it's easiest, you can PM me.

I agree that power distribution could be an issue, but I disagree that you must have a dual fan harness. It's easy enough to find a beefy relay (or solenoid) and come up with adequate wiring.

I'm running the Taurus SHO fan only on the high speed. Pulls a consistent 30 amps when running, and dims the lights a bit when it kicks on (inevitable). The RPMs are pretty steady through the whole bout. My setup consists of 8 gauge wire going to a pretty hefty relay. I can't remember what it's rated for, but I spec'd an adequate one. The supply for that relay has a... I wanna say 50 amp self resetting circuit breaker on it. Relay coil ground from the ecm, and +12 volts key on for the other side of the coil. You're mechanically inclined, and beefing up the fan wiring wouldn't be difficult for you. Might be worth the time. 1 volt of a drop isn't that bad, BUT if the injector comps aren't that close, the dip in voltage is going to mess with the fueling.

On to the fun stuff...

What I saw on the datalogs would indicate that the engine responded better to MORE fuel. The idle in gear datalog had significantly higher injector PWs than the other datalogs at the beginning of the bog. I would recommend adding some fuel in the 55-70 range from 900-600. Transition those values into the higher MAP ranges at those RPMs. My idea here is that the engine gets loaded up, wants more air, IAC opens, it gets more air. Spark correction kicks in to increase torque...great. Now all it needs is more fueling to go with those two things. FWIW, MAP AE only kicked in on a couple of those logs. Interestingly, the in gear datalog which had the highest PWs, had no MAP AE being added. Maybe the extra rotating mass is acting as a damper, slowing down the delta MAP enough to where it's too small to trigger the MAP AE event. The MAP AE is so small at the smaller deltas, I highly doubt it would affect the running of the engine here. Thinking out loud here, apologies for the rambling.

Try playing with the idle high SA too. That much change in SA could cause some overshoot.

Oh, and adjust your TB blades so you can lower your IAC steps. Port recommended is 20-25 at warm idle. Take it for a drive, build up some heat, and then set the TB screw. I've tried to reduce the IAC steps to about zero because I like having more steps in the throttle follower (manual trans). I've had significant improvement with idle quality when the IAC counts are lower. It's one of those things that "just worked" for me.

FireDemonSiC

Thank you for the insight. I will try that tonight and see how it goes.

When you say reduce the SA compensation, are you referring to the idle high or idle low. Just for clarification? Also, I am running a regular EBL Flash and the IAC counts are something I am aware of and will be correcting tonight. Oddly enough, they shot way up from 20ish to the current 50-60 counts they're at now just by removing battery power to the ECM without any adjustments to the stop screw. I think that may have been a big part of past issues as the EBL had an incorrect calibration for the IAC in memory.

Also, I am curious as to just what is a "dual fan harness"? What's described is exactly how I have it configured now. My car was originally a single electric fan and when I first dropped the LS1 fans in, trying to pull them through the single fan would blow the 15amp fuse every time they were commanded on. I then added a second relay and 15amp fuse and gave each fan its own relay. The harness is from a 4th gen I cut out at the yard so it is the correct fan harness.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It is the way it is designed in connection with the stock circuitry. I mentioned the Grand National guys because it was common to take a dual fan setup from a Dodge Ramcharger from the junkyard (w/Dodge connectors), but to use it with the Caspers dual fan harness. I believe it is staggered, it is designed to cause a delay, relieving from the sudden byproduct of surge when both fans are triggered simultaneously. The EBL-P4 (the one I use) doesn't need an additional relay for the secondary fan because of its' circuitry, just jumper the wire behind the ECM and set the enable temp. This is why I mentioned having to do with the circuitry, not just two separate relays from the ls1;

Edit: Bad Links, just search dual fan relay from Casper Electronics on Google...

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

Interesting. For S&Gs I can try unplugging one of the fans to see if it makes a difference.

It's not so much the sag in RPM that bothers me. It's the resulting surge right after that drives me nuts.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I get that surge too if I have both fans turn on at the same time, it's robbing injector voltage the moment they trigger, then the O2 has to spend time metering the fuel during O2 correction, a la surge. I'm running a 160* thermostat, and have the primary fan come on at 185*, then the secondary fan come on at 190* (if it needs it depending on ambient), with both shutting down at 170*. If the radiator is not efficient, then you can expect to see the temperature reach over 200* in the summertime regardless of the temp settings.This is why GM sets the secondary fan to come on twenty degrees later than the primary fan, too much load, as well as a fail safe. When it is hot out it gets even worse...

- Rob

FireDemonSiC

Hmmm. Can try that tonight. If that turns out to be the issue, it almost makes me wonder whether or not the battery correction offsets are correct.

It also would be fairly simple that build an integrated circuit that could have a small 5-10 second delay in activating the second relay.

Champion 3 row aluminum radiator here BTW on a 170 thermostat. Around 190-195 is roughly the hottest temp I see on hot *** summer days.

RJ IROC

FireDemonSiC

Wow. That takes building an IC out of the equation.

The problem with the WB is probably your ADC settings. I'll post a screenshot of mine when I get home.

No idea on the NB. Looks fine on my end. I've had the tune locked in open loop idle this whole time. It seems to idle best when the WB reports an AFR of 20.

FireDemonSiC

Alright guys. Made a couple changes tonight. Corrected IAC steps to 25ish at idle fully warmed and slightly tweaked SA compensation values. Also added a tad bit of fuel where recommended. Idle is good, however it didn't seem to fix the fan issue. Even tried 30 bump steps. No dice.

HOWEVER, it turns out you guys were right about the fans and the voltage hit. I pulled the fuse for one of the fans and observed when they were commanded on. The engine barely skipped a beat and returned to normal immediately. Almost like a stock vehicle. I then waited a few seconds, plugged the fuse back in and the same deal. I was able to consistently reproduce these results over several fan cycles. Makes me question the battery compensation values. I ran a search on my injector part number and found a post Bob had made years back with the battery offsets for my injectors HOWEVER it was at 44psi. I'm at 55 right now and will probably bump it to 60 and readjust the BPC values. I will message him about that detail next week when my 4an fittings get here and I can hook my pressure gauge back up but for now I'm declaring the fan issue fixed after I purchase the delay box RJ linked to.

Now if you guys don't mind, I need your help with one last serious issue and then the car will be at the point where I can drive it and do some VE learns to readjust fuel tables.

It's with the cold start. It's downright terrible. To the point it will consistently stall with the first crank every time. After it gets running on the second crank, it surges back and forth as high as 1600RPM and as low as 400 almost stalling out again. AFR swings around between 21 and 13 from what I can see as soon as the wideband comes online. This occurs until the engine hits roughly 110F or so. Warm start? Flawless. I have collected a datalog and let the engine warm up to 140. The log was taken before the IAC steps adjustment but that's not what the issue is.

I've attached a screenshot of a few settings in my tune I believe are relevant and also another thing I noticed st that the SA seems to be pegged above 40* most of the time. Why is this?

Also RJ, I have attached another screenshot of the settings for my wideband. There are two widebands because one is installed into each bank. The autometer goes to my gauge and is also logged and viewable when you export to Excel. The Innovate is the primary wideband for the EBL. Ignore the fuel pressure ATM as the transducer is not currently plumbed (Long story short, STAY AWAY from no name hose ends especially if swivel).

RJ IROC

Coolant comp SA is adding quite a lot of advance when the engine is cold. Choke is adding a bit too. At approx 40 degrees F, the bias SA is adding close to 6 degrees, Choke is adding about 8. There are your main two contributors to the high SA. You probably know this, but WB readings aren't super accurate when it's cold. Although, seeing that large of an AFR swing is indicating the fueling is inconsistent.

HAH. I've been there and done that with cheap fuel fittings. Oh well, live and learn.

Higher fuel pressure is great for a lot of things, namely atomization. Do you really need that much pressure though? It's a lot easier to manage fueling down low with lower pressures, just to take advantage of the resolution of the VE table. If there's one thing I've learned, mathematical modeling of fluid dynamics is super useful....theoretically. There's really no substitute for real test data. I only mention this because, depending on your injectors(what kind are you running by the way?), the offsets have been calculated at 3 bar for most popular injectors. If you're looking for REALLY accurate offsets, that's the way to go.

I'll take a look at your recent log in a bit. Battery on this craptop ain't gonna last much longer.

RJ IROC

While I'm thinking of it, what's the reason for the filter on the wideband signal? The innovate controller already filters to an extent even on the fastest setting.

FireDemonSiC

I'll dick with the advance settings and let you know how it goes. That's what I was thinking. Just looking for input to confirm. I don't hear any audible knock however the knock sensor does report between 10 and 20 counts during the warmup process. However this can also be attributed to loose tolerances when cold. 2618 piston and .0055" wall clearance do not help. Never-the-less, we both know the havoc that knock can wreak on bearings especially at low rpm when oil pressure is compromised and it's something I take very seriously.

As far as the fuel pressure, I now remember why I had the BPC values set high. It's because the EBL Utility calculates the BPC at 85% injector duty cycle. When I put the car on the dyno, it put down 314HP to the wheel on the OLD setup with the peak being at 5200rpm. This is roughly 390 at the crank taking parasitic loss into account. VE at this RPM was at 75 with highest VE being 89 at peak torque. As we all know, VE cannot be above 100 so I feared I was hitting the limit of my injectors and bumped the BPC up higher so I could run more than 85% duty cycle. The injectors I'm running are the Bosch Design IIIs rated at 22lbs @ stock MPFI pressure. I agree on both the atomization as well as the easier manipulation of fuel at lower RPMs. I know the D3 injectors can handle higher pressure with no issues but I found the idle to be easier to control once I cranked the pressure down a bit.

Also FWIW, I run that much of a filter on the wideband because past datalogs showed sharp changes in the AFR IE 12.2 one cell and 12.8 the next at WOT. That was a problem I noticed with the autometer wideband though before I did true dual exhaust and added the Innovate.

Funny thing about your laptop battery. There's a reason you see an extension cord going into the car in all my videos. The battery in mine won't last more than 10 minutes once unplugged. Gonna have to pick up a new one before doing any VE learns.

RJ IROC

Yep, changed the ADC settings and BINGO. Data looks like it should now.

cAFR stays fairly steady during the whole log minus the few times where RPMs are bonkers. Good. Fueling looks OK. It's hard to confirm proper fueling with the engine being everything but steady and a cold WB.

I will say I'm seeing a direct response from the excessive spark advance causing surging, a lot of factors at play here.

RPM drops, Idle SA correction kicks in: adds spark
Engine still cold, comp bias table: added spark
choke still hasn't decayed (most likely) : adds spark

As the engine is recovering, it gets the maximum advance it can: 45 degrees... Depending on base timing yadda yadda...
Engine RPMs come up, MAP decreases, loses a degree or two there, loses the rest from high idle SA comp.

Try pulling some spark out of that bias table, maybe a degree or two from the choke SA as well. The dumb, stupid, low compression stock engines love all the advance when they're cold. I think you'll see some benefit from reducing it. If you're happy with how the car idles and responds to loads at idle when warm, then leave the idle SA correction alone. Between the choke mode and the comp bias table, you have plenty of control over spark when it's cold.

It's 100% acceptable to fudge the BPC. You're doing it the right way by using a small injector and maximizing available PW. See, I was young and naive when I built my engine. Thought I would be making gobs of power, and I went overkill on the injectors as a result. At least I'm only running bosch III 36pph injectors. Even though they're way big, they can still meter the flow effectively at low PW. The spray pattern is great too. Still wish I would have bought more appropriate ones...

FireDemonSiC

Yep. That's exactly what I was thinking with the advance. I think I'm gonna try dialing the coolant comp table way back and zero out the choke as a first attempt. We'll see how it responds to that. Like you said, fine for a stock, low compression almost smogger engine. 10.5:1 stroker, not so much. At least the quench is doing a good job of detonation control. I set it up on the tight side of .035"

I've been running those injectors since 2012 when I started restoring everything. Bought them new from FIC. MPG went from 8 to 15. During the install, I discovered that some goober before me had put two 305 injectors and two 350 injectors on the bank the O2 reads from . I planned to keep those injectors until they were no longer adequate. At that time the 334 was just a plot in my brain but thought I could make it work.

I think at first I will bump the fuel pressure and try running true BPC. I believe 60-65PSI MIGHT get me where I need to be and the D3 injectors do a good job of handling higher pressures. Also recently got into an argument on one of the groups with someone who is convinced that 60psi will blow out the orings on the rails and set the car on fire. Never heard of that, and ran 60PSI for 4 years since this engine was dropped in the car.

If that doesn't work, I can also fudge the BPC numbers a bit. Just not 200. I think that was way high and would push the injectors BEYOND their capability. It does raise the question though: If the BPC values aren't what they should be, wouldn't this result in incorrect PW, Duty Cycle and MPG calculations/readings in the WUD?

RJ IROC

The farthest beyond capability you can get to is static. Even then, you have a neat tool: single fire mode. That reduces the number of openings and closings by half for whatever PWs you have it set to come on and off at. Correct injector offsets are critical here. For a typical "cycle" in normal double fire mode, you have two injector firings. Thats two times the offsets are applied to the fueling calc to achieve the final PW. When you go to single fire, you only apply that offset once, but hold the injector open longer. You can see how injector offsets can effect the net amount of fuel delivered in this "cycle". Honestly though, a few microseconds on a several millisecond long pulsewidth isn't going to be that noticeable. Just something worth noting.

To answer your last question: no, no, and no. The PW shown on the WUD is what the ecm is commanding. Changing the BPC changes that PW, changing offsets changes that PW. I like to think of the PW display as the pulse of power the injector sees every firing. Duty cycle is a function of the pulsewidth and the time between firings, but it's still going to be the DC of the injector.

I guess the point is, manipulating the BPC will change the PW. There isn't a difference between the PW shown on the WUD and what the injectors are receiving.

The MPG has a value somewhere in the bin file to modify it for your actual fuel delivery. Changing BPCs will change the PW, which will change the actual amount of fuel delivered, which will change the MPG.

I'm starting to confuse myself. I better get back to work now. TGIF

FireDemonSiC

Well, made a little bit of progress tonight. I dialed the coolant comp spark advance settings way back and copied the cold startup settings on over from my old tune.

The engine no longer sags down to 600RPM. It stays above 1000 during the entire warmup process however the surge between 1000 and 1500 is still present. Also still present is the stallout on the initial crank and then the next one immediately following stays running. Spark advance seems more in check but I have a sneaking suspicion that the fueling is now what's off as that is pretty much the only thing vastly different from the original tune before the superram. I believe the huge change between the idle cells and the cells in the 1100-1500rpm range are the cause of this however I am also wondering if it could cause surging during normal driving if I jack the VE way down in those areas.

Take a look at the following video and compare it to the datalog. Also note the point in the video where for S&Gs, I bumped the regulator up a bit and then reference in the datalog. It seems that at several points during the warmup process, it seems to stabilize momentarily and then goes back to the surging. The surging seems to completely vanish around 130ish F on the CTS.

Two issues remain. Why is it still surging and why does is always stall out on the first cold crank?

RJ IROC

For the high idle surging, that's most definitely attributed to the fueling. Just monitor your AFRs during the surge event. Can't look at the log right this second, but I can later. My car did this too, and fixing the fueling in the higher vacuum areas alleviated that issue. Adding fuel up there will make it want to rev up more, so it may be an iterative task to get it to stabilize nicely. That'll all be playing with cAFRs, timing and the VE tables. See how your AFR vs CTS table looks at 130 degrees. Maybe there's something that can be seen there, like a large differential in the percentages.

You can change how quickly the choke decays out. Usually it doesn't decay THAT quickly though. Check the lowest RPM row on the VE table. Add some fuel in the 40-90 KPA range. As the engine cranks over, the fueling is determined by those cells. Starts at 100 kpa and moves towards the smaller values. My best guess is that your crank PW gives the engine just enough to fire, and the VE table, which takes over pretty much immediately, just doesn't have enough to keep it running. Be careful, and don't add too much. Always the possibility of hydro-locking the engine.

My other guess is that the once it fires up and reaches approx 1000RPM or so, it doesn't have enough fuel. The engine bogs and can't recover. Supports the idea of the engine running too lean, as I mentioned in the first paragraph.

You'll get there. Idle and cold starts are tricky to tune. Everything else seems to be coming out nicely.

FireDemonSiC

So with an ambient temp of about 50F, I went outside just a few minutes ago with the camera and datalog rolling.

She had been sitting a full 24 hours and I was 100% sure I was gonna catch the SOB in the act and report back with valuable data......Then I turned the key and the ***** fired right up and idled normal -____-

Guess that's a plus. I did make some adjustments to the cold start fueling (AFR vs CTS table). I actually increased it a decent amount. I also tried leveling out the VE table a tad in these areas. Decreasing it a tad in higher kPa areas while increasing it in lower kPa cells so the table was a bit more leveled out and didn't slope down and off towards the high vacuum side. It still surges a tad bit until roughly 80F but CONSIDERABLY less. AFR during cold warmup is 14-15. I think a few more tweaks will have it completely corrected.

Now the only thing left is the correct voltage correction tables. Bob says he doesn't have any data for my injectors. That's crazy how difficult information is to find for these things with as popular of a swap as they are.

RJ, do you have any leads as far as that goes? 280-155-700 Bosch Design III

RJ IROC

Unfortunately, I can't come up with very much for those injectors. Top pic is what I would probably go off of. The bottom was for another Bosch III 19pph. Those offsets could be off due to them being calculated at Ford's rail pressure.

If you're happy with your current offsets, or they are similar to Rbob's post, ignore the following.

For getting unknown offsets close, here's what I would do/what I have done in the past:
Get a comparable set of offsets and plug those bad boys in
Create two identical .bin files
Make one of them run in single fire mode constantly. (just change the enter and exit PWs)
Grab the craptop and flash those into two different flash banks
Start up the moneypit and get it warmed up
Turn the TB screw to get a high idle
Change bins every few seconds or so and note any change in AFR
If your offsets are perfect, the engine should transition into and out of single fire mode pretty smoothly. Observing the AFRs and understanding how the offsets are applied to each firing will suggest adding or subtracting PW. Richer in double fire mode suggests too much offset, richer in single fire mode suggests not enough.
Note this only works for around one voltage setting. If you change one value near 14V, bring the other values up/or down too. In my mind, that basically scales the offsets to the injector to get the other values close. Any injector offset curve is a "smooth" downwards slope, so you'll want to retain that shape.

At the end of the day, if you're within a couple hundred microseconds, you'll be okay. You'll always want to come back to them to get them right, but it's easy enough to just set them and tune around them.

And don't even get me started about checking the spark latency tables...

Hope that helps!

FireDemonSiC

I completely get what you're saying however that's more work than I'm willing to put in considering that the engine runs well off that exact table you quoted by Bob. That's the table I've been running since the day this engine first ran.

I would like to know however how to properly compensate for changes in fuel pressure. Those tables linked are at 43.5PSI and I'm running 60+.

Oh and I know all about latency tables. That's something I've done alot of research into. I just went with the stock large cap latency table and tell myself it's correct. I once had a fan belt jump off the back of the pulley, cut itself in half, slash open the air intake boot and rip the fan off the front of the alternator when I hit 6500RPM. Having my face inches from the front of the engine at 4000+ RPM putzing around with a timing gun is something I'll pass on.