I was curious of what kind of engine would dominate over an ls-1? Fuel injected or carb makes no difference. Just curious of what you guys think. Or any combo of engine parts that would take one.

 

LS6, LS2, most any modern big block crate engine. most any small block with moderate compression, good flowing heads(dart, canfield, pro topline, AFR) and a lopey cam.

 

any decient performance engine... SBC or BBC.

 

Agreed. Stock for stock the LS1 dominates over 90% of all production motors. That is why they get such a good rap. But once you start to mod any small block/big block 350hp is just a starting point to the power making potential.

 

how much money would you like to spend?

 

well money wise i was saving up for the ls-1 and that's why i ask what types of engines could beat it. So i am thinking the cost of an ls-1 crate 5600 should be a good amount to mess with.

 

If you want an LS1 I wouldnt buy it crate. You can get one used, that would be a ton cheaper.

 

My carbed 408 small block, for one - best $2400 I ever spent.

 

with $5600 you could do an a$$load of mods to a gen I SBC, enough to destroy any LS1, LS6 or anything of the sort. If I had that money, I'd just do a Gen 1 buildup and work my braggin rights when vettes were seeing the pretty red of my tail lights. Just my $.02

 

For 5600$ they wouldnt even be able to see my tail lights thats how far ahead I'd be.

As said earlier, 350hp is a starting point which is more then the ls1 makes.

For 5600$ you could easily build a 500hp NA 400ci small block that you can throw another 200 shot of nitrous on top of and drive that everyday with the spray on the weekends.

 

You people are acting like you cant mod an LS1 and 350 is all it will make. ****, all I am doing is putting in a cam, some springs and a few bolts ons and that already would be good enough to make 400 HP. You guys are talking about an "a$$load" of mods to make 350. I could take that $5600, mod my LS1 and leave you guys in the dust too... and have money to spare. Especially with the deal I got on my motor.

With a little work and a few mods any engine can be better than another. It all depends on your prefenrence and what you want... who cares?

 

What we are saying is that if you have NO engine at all, $5600 could get you a complete Gen I SBC, plus you'd have more than enough money to spend rebuilding it and giving it some after market performance parts, whereas that same $5600 would get you a base LS1 with no mods whatsoever. I am not going to knock the LS1's power potential, because it's insane. But it can also get insanely expensive too, especially for people who can't get "deals" on motors......if only we were all so lucky. Of course, if you already have a LS1, that $5600 could do wonders in making a car almost untouchable.

 

umm... cause he asked:

and so i replied:

then some bla bla blah about prices

then you reply with modding a LS1

btw 400hp is where you START to have a great motor... not stop... btw...

but if you swap one in and then do that, you have over 10k in your engine alone.... and you're still right around where i started performance wise with the SBC.... not saying its better or anything, just more cost effective per pony.... after 50 years, we have the ability to make cheap HP with it. :lala:

 

Thats very true. You could also get a good used LS1 also fairely cheap. I'm not arguing I was just saying.

 

GM High port 18* heads
Large Solid Roller Camshaft
12:1 compression
NOS cheater kit

Put it all in a 400 sbc derivative and it would be unbeatable . A friend of mine runs 9.7's without the nitrous with that setup .

 

I chose the LS1 despite the extra expense. The engine is producing 360 RWHP with just a mild cam, pshrods and springs. I can probably pick up an easy 20 I decided to get headers. Even more if I port the heads. I am getting 20MPG around town with a 3600 stall torque converter and passing emissions. I was able to get around 29 MPG on the highway.

My L98 and LB9 engines could not touch this. Sure I could have built them to make the same power, however I would be spending a ton of money on fuel. Also, I saved 150 LBS of weight on the engine and 29 LBS on the torque converter.

If money and emissions were not an issue I would have done an LT5 368 swap.

Bottom line. It's great to have choices. This was my reasoning. Let us know what you decide.

 

LS1 is the way to go, just go tho LS1TECH.COM and see some of the combos they have, heads and cam = anywhere from 410rwhp to 460rwhp. Thats just heads and cam that is capable of giving you a 10 sec car with a good susp. a little weight reduction, and good driver, and you can still get 20+MPG on the highway with a 6spd. Or go look at the hard core stock internal racers at that website, they do weight reduction, deep gears, big stalls, full susp. and run mid 11s with bolt ons. Now come on guys you have to respect the LS1 yeah it is a little more expensive but what you get out of them is awsome, lots of power.

If you have a lot of money look at the 427 or the 434 cid Small block LS1 you can make over 500 rwhp easy N/A, and it being an everyday driver. then you through a 150 shot on it and you have a very fast street car, not much will keep up with ya.

This is just my opinion so I hope I didn't **** anyone off.

Dan

 

you can't compare 2 engines, by comparing how people run from this board, and how people run from that board.

Also, keep in mind that LS1 parts are much more expensive than GEN1 SBC parts.

and there aren't many LS1s w/ a stock bottom end that are running 10's.

on that one.

procharged stock LS1's can just dip into the 11's.

with the money that LS1 parts cost, you could have a 406 with 18* heads and a fat soild roller cam, and no LS1 could touch you.

 

LT1 + LT4 conversion = :hail: :hail: :hail:

 

We should be asking ourselves which motor has the greatest potential.... ls1 doesnt have many aftermarket parts because it is fairly new and hasent been researched. Sure the ls1 is a good start becuase basically it only weighs 150lbs plus accessories. But for 5600 bucks id just build a rat

 

I'm not bashing the LS1 it's a great engine. But it's just stupid to buy one in my opinion for a price that high (Maybe it's a decent price, but that decent price is still extremely high to me). You can do like a lot of people on here said and tons more power for probably less money.

 

a guy i no has a built 350 in a malibu and he beat a ls1. tranny was slipping also

 

That would be true as of 1999 but there are TONS of stuff to do to your LS1. They have about 6 or 7 differnt stroker/bore sizes out and multiple places that do 1, 2 and 3 stage prot jobs on their heads that flow just as good as any AFR head for a gen 1. PLus they have various sheetmetal intake manifolds that you need after the LS6 one becomes restrictive at 700hp. Lots of turbo kits, superchargers, heads and cam galore. There is plenty out there.

 

Yeah, you are right in that respect. But the cheapest I have seen a stroker kit for LS1 was around 3 grand.....just for internals. Little steep if you consider you could build an entire turnkey Gen I motor for that much that could more than hang with LS1s.

 

I'll sell you a 454 long block (Crank, heads, block, even the rods and pistons if you want ) For 700$ Take that 5600 bucks and build a REAL motor. Throw a carb, intake and whatever compression you want................

 

Oh yea you are absolutely right about that. Yes it isn't cheap and the non GM cams are like $400. Cost for cost there is no beating a gen1 set-up. Yea I think lunati sells a 383 kit for 2k now. Still expensive but it does come with everything you need right out of the box.

 

I agree, the LS1 is a nice engine, but unless you got a lot of cash to throw around, a traditional SBC is the way to go, only reason I could see in picking the LS1 over any other engine would be the milage.

 

If you want a new LS1, but don't want to pay new prices, I got one for sale. 2002 LS1 out of a Z28. Less than 30 miles. Replaced with a 427.

Shoot me an email

cbratamer@hotmail.com

 

Kinda tough making comparisons this way. " 3g for a stroker kit, for that I could build a gen 1 that would hang with (stock) LS1s." For 3g you sure aren't building anything that would hang with a large-displacement stroker type, gen 1 or LS1.

There's nothing magic about LS1s, they just come with better stuff from the factory. 15deg heads for example...on a gen-1 you're spending major $$ just getting to 18deg, and you're starting with 23deg valves. There's the bulk of the advantage, the sequential injection and whatnot open the gap even further.

 

its up to him in the end. Id say if he was hell bend on the ls1 then wait a year or two to let the prices drop. New stuff is always more expensive when it first comes out. Try some parts o ramas and what not. But if i had 5600 bucks that 700 dollar 454 long block would be hounding me.

 

Yup, his call. Tough to quantify what an "LS1 Beater" really is...

Stock LS1s are easily dealt with for less cash than a stock new/used LS1 would cost. Been there, done it repeatedly. 355ci, Stealth Ram, HOT cam, decent headers, and you're wasting stock LS1s on the strip or road course.

However, as soon as the LS1 guy pops in a cookbook $400 cam and springs, he's got 360-380hp at the wheels and you aren't getting there without dropping thousands in cash...defeating the point of staying gen-1 to save money. At that point you're converting to 18deg heads, or building a stroker.

 

Well, on eof my main reasons for not choosing LS1 is the aluminum block, yea its nice on the weight reduction, but man, I don't know, im thinking that sucker will crack much quicker than an iron block will.

 

owned :rockon:

 

Price out the 406 stroker w/ 18deg heads using accurate numbers...go ahead, someone post the parts/price list...don't forget the valvetrain, whacko headers, whacko intake manifold...none of that stock stuff will work.

Then try getting it thru emission testing (no EFI intakes for 18deg heads)...

 

I am sure there are a lot of people who have built 350s that can pound on stock or bolt on LS1's all day BUT there are starting to be a lot of H/C LS1's out there that are running low 11s with stock shortblocks, hell there are a lot of cam only cars running mid to high 11s. Once again I will say this is I got a great deal on my SS that is why I choose to sell my Iroc-Z but by the time I would have done the motor, tranny, rearend, susp., etc in my Iroc-Z it would have been a lot of money, So I made the decision to go LS1 just for the fact I can have a vary reliable H/C car that will run low to mid 11s and be pretty dominate on the street, But don't get me wrong you can make some crazy Gen 1 smallblocks that are reliable I just did a lot of looking and reading on the LS1's and was really impressed with them. I think in a few years down the road the LS1 parts are going to be as cheap as 5.0 mustang parts because they will be so popular. thats just my opinion.

Dan

 

lt1's are sloths i got one

 

since when do you need EFI to get through emissions?

82-87 thirdgens could be had with a carburator, and as long as an inspector doesn't pull the air cleaner off, a TBI car would be fine too.

 

I have seen some 18 degree heads that are the same price regular AFR's so they aren't too much of an extra expense for the added power.

 

Sounds great, go buy a pair...and then fasten your seatbelt for when you go rocker shopping. Think a set of $300 Cranes will bolt up? Wrong.

 

You left off the making serious horsepower part, while still passing emissions. Not saying it can't be done, but there are much much much fewer cases of guys making 400+ hp on a carb and still passing emissions than there are LS1s doing it...prove me wrong and post a few.

 

you can't weld injector bungs to an 18* head/intake combo? seems like an easy fix to the no fuel injection deal. not cheap, but easy.

 

The point earlier was avoiding the LS1 because you could make same/more hp cheaper...the cost gap closes pretty quickly doesn't it?

Unless someone is going to post their success story with a non-LS1 smallblock Chevy making 400+ hp at the wheels while getting 25+ MPG and passing IM-240 emission testing and having spent less than $4000 or so, we're not really accomplishing much here.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Exactly.......

 

Don't forget about the LC2 3.8 Turbo Buick motor. Its not a chevy engine, but with mild bolt ons and the stock internals 400 hp is not that hard of a task, and 25+ mpg isn't too hard to attain with a v6 as long as u stay off the boost.

Swapping an LC2 into a thirdgen wouldn't be that hard and u can find the motors for relatively cheap money, compared to an LS1.

Just another option...

~Murt

 

Build an LS1 motor from scratch and price it out with aftermarket, forged everything like the 406 would have...

 

Go back and read the thread...someone jumped in with what amounted to "you can build a 406 that will beat LS1's for what they cost".

I asked for proof and clarified what exactly "beating an LS1" meant...more hp, better gas mileage, and no emissions problems.

No actual data has been presented yet. Plenty of noise, but no data.

 

That would be one sweet setup...I rode in a Turbo TA w/ 3.8L engine and they're unbelievable. I wouldn't be able to stay off the boost though.

 

If you care about gas mileage and emmissions then buy a honda. It just means more $$$, which the average joe does not have. If you can afford to build an emmissions legal ride that gets good gas mileage, good for you. How many LS1 motors have you built? Half the people in this post do not know **** about LS1 motors besides what they have read on forums such as this one. We are getting to the point (much like LT1 cars) that LS1 motors are higher mileage than 3 or 4 years ago. You cant guarantee when you junkyard an LS1 motor that the cylinder heads arent going to need guides, seals and a valve job. You can argue that the LS1 motor is a better all around platform, but dont argue that it cheaper hp/$.

 

you are the dumbest person alive or at least the most ignorant.
1) there are LS1s running 9s on stock bottom ends, been well known. several run 10s, it doesn't take much.
2) any HCIE LS1 would be running low 11s in the heavier 4th gen with some good tires and a stall.
3) procharged stock L98s dip into the 12s, LT1s mid 12s, slapping a blower on any stock motor will never give you maximum results, you have to build the motor for a blower or turbo.
4) your 406 with 18 degree heads would STILL get slapped around by sprayed or HCIE LS1s who could drive to the race, drive back, drive everywhere, with 20+ mpg, 500 RWHP, and so on while you trailer your 406 18 degree motor back and forth to race sites cause it runs on race gas or only gets 5 mpg. they'd also be doing this with 346ci displacement. 18 degree heads flow junk compared to ported LS1 heads. then you have 5.3L truck heads, flow better (and are cheaper), then LS6 heads, flow even better, and C5R heads, even better. LS1 heads are based on SB2 heads.
5) LS1, new technology showing up the old, it's better in more ways than one. welcome to reality mate, LS1s are far better motors than Gen I, just cause they cost more doesn't mean dick. you can do 400 RWHP with bolt ons and tuning which is plenty cheap. I don't know what kind of LS1s you've got running around where you live, but here they are damned near the kings of the street