[QUOTE]"Now as far as you saying people not putting a buttload of work into thier car, your too damn quick to assume, i've been working on my LT1/T-56 combo for quite a bit and didn't have anyone do it for me. QUOTE]

I guess you missed the ? marks. I never stated that! I did feel that I wasted my time reading the MPG posts. because some one missed my point. Why not have the best of both worlds. Power and be good on fuel.

Maybe I should tell you what my buddy has at the shop.
1. 89 Iroc with a 350TPI and a 5 speed. Very good running car but just got us into things.
2. 89 Iroc with a 36x TPI (not sure what it came out to) soon to have a stealth ram/ported Al heads and a auto. Very strong car but not tuned yet.
3. 95-96 TA with a 383 LT1 and a 6 speed/4.10s. This thing moves!!
4. 82 Z28 with a 350TPI conversion (Car was totaled while sitting in the lot waiting for parts. didn't even get to fire it up.
5. 90 Iroc with a 2001 LS1 AS stage 2.5 heads, F13 cam, roller rockers, 4.10s bla bla bla (Still building)

So I guess we have one of each!! lol So don't get all bent out of shape because we are trying one of each.

I would have to say the newer engines are more fun from that list but they all have strong and weak points.

 

How many of you are running 500 rwhp and still getting 18-19 miles per gallon?

Once you start modding an LS1 the mpg doesn't go down like the carb and tpi motors.

I have or have had both. LS1 rocks!

Build a LT1, then build a LS1.

LS1 rocks!

LS1 are easy to work on, mod and drive. If you haven't tried, I suggest you pick up my spare LS1 and put it in your car. You will be impressed.

I promise.

 

Ok, three things.

A. assuming that one puts in a larger cam to achieve 500rwhp, your gas mileage is gonna go down no if, ands, or buts.

B. Do you have any idea what kind of work it takes to get 500rwhp out of an LS1. assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that is 590fwhp. That is pretty much going to require more cubes, 320+cfm heads, a gigantic solid roller cam, and that still might not get you there.

C. What is so magical about that LS1 that "when you start modding it, the mpg doesn't go down like other motors"

Is it the magical fairy dust, or is it that your talking out of your ***.

 

Your crazy if you think gas milage won't go down, you obviously have no experience in that category.

 

I'm willing to be impressed if you are willing to donate your "spare LS1" to put in my car.
I can't wait for the day to have spare engines laying around to stick in cars

 

I have a 99 Formula that is fully optioned minus leather. On a drive from South Florida, to Louisiana, I averaged 29 MPG at 75+ mph with an automatic transmission. Those of you claiming that the fuel economy is only good with a babied six-speed car obviously have never driven an LS1 or yours ran poorly.

Upon getting the car home, in bone-stock configuration, it dynoed 290 rwhp at Thunder Racing. Assuming a 22% drivetrain loss for an automatic transmission, that puts me at about 370 flywheel horsepower. I then added a Hooker cat-back, Whisper lid, and Holley filter. In addition, the EGR neck was cut and the screen removed from the MAF sensor. For a grand total of $400.00, my Formula dynoed at 309 rwhp, calculated out to just shy of 400 flywheel horsepower.

A recent visit to the track netted 13.37@104 mph. This number was run in completely street trim. The spare tire was still in the back, no parts were removed, no exhaust uncapped, etc. The car even had a full tank of gas. Regular street tires were used and only a 2.0 sixty foot was achieved.

On this same night at the same track, a friend's 2001 Z28 ran 12.17@114 mph. This was done with Thunder Racing headers, off-road y-pipe, Hooker cat-back, underdrive pulley, Whisper lid, drag radials, race skinnies up front, and a short belt. The engine is completely stock, as well as the torque converter.

A quick browse through eBay finds several LS1+transmission combos for $4.5k and under ($4k for automatics instead of 6 speed). This includes the engine, transmission, wiring harness, ECM, and accessories.

Can you find me a SBC crate engine with transmission/wiring/accessories/induction that makes 400 horsepower and costs less than $4k, gets 27+ mpg, and has the reliability of a factory built GM engine? I somehow doubt it.

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say, but Brad just words it alot better.

Anyhow, its all up to the person who wants to do it, or not do it. I have just a tiny bit left to do on mine, and when its running, I'll let anyone who comes to Paris Tx. with a 12pk. (my choice) go for a spin in it. You drive it and tell me what you think.

 

I'll let anyone who comes to Paris Tx. with a 12pk. (my choice) go for a spin in it. You drive it and tell me what you think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Im in, just hollar when its ready. Dude ill even take a 24pk (your choice) I just want to know "personally" if its worth it (LS-1 swap) so I can decide the next project on mine.

 

Dude, I am definitely taking you up on that one. Hell, I'll chip in the 24 pack as well just to cover for the next time I plan on visiting.......I've heard the LS1 is addictivelol

 

Just a few quick points. The magic of the LS1 is the 15 degree valve angle. Stock LS1 heads flow better than 98% of aftermaket Gen1/2 heads.

The rotational mass is lighter the internal windage is superior allowing it to rev quicker. The bottom end is practically bullet proof. 6300 redline without braking a sweat. More importantly it weighs 150 pounds less. Great mileage is an added benefit. Lastly, the engine does not suffer from the common leakage points and optispark problems that the LT1 engines suffer from.

Speartech ran those 11s with stock exhaust manifolds. The first of those 11 runs were with the stock muffler. The car idles smooth as glass and is very streetable.

In terms of the original intent of this post. The LS1 swap was well worth the extra expense and hassle from my experience.

 

Mine must run poorly. Funny how it runs exactly the same both before and after the motor had to be rebuilt when it ate an oil pump...a COMMON problem with the early LS1's (a friend has a 422 stroker that got that way because of the same oil pump problem). Also, has everyone forgotten about the common problem with piston slap?


Apples and oranges, my friend. That LS1/tranny combo you are mentioning can have as many as 50k miles or more on it. A crate motor will be a 0 miles and have a warranty. Most folks spend at least $7k on a LS1 install...that's almost enough for a ramjet 502!!
Can you find a complete LT1 RUNNING car for less than $4k? Yep. Heck, I'll sell you my WHOLE LS1 car for $7500...wont have to do anything but turn the key and drive it home - after handing me the cash that is.

EXACTLY!!!

 

Doesn't the LS1 suffer from Piston slap? Those runs were not the stock muffler, he has a cutout. The lt1 can easily rev to 6300 on the stock bottom end, just reprogram the rev limiter.

 

Where I work, I see LS1 vehicles every day. Out of about 15 employees, there are at least 8 LS1 vehicles (Corvette, F-Body, or truck). On top of that, we see 1 or 2 LS1 cars that belong to customers per day in our parking lot. I've probably watched more LS1 cars strapped onto a dyno or ran at the local track than you've seen total. Out of all of these cars that I have personally seen, exactly zero blew an engine in front of me. We're talking about cars that see 6000+ RPMs all the time.

I am not saying that oil pumps haven't been a problem for you, but you're a fool if you think every LS1 car lunches it's oil pump in less than 60k miles. Mentioned in my previous post, my 99 Formula has 76k miles on it with no problems. Also mentioned in my previous post, the 2001 Z28 had over 85k on the clock and runs consitant 12.20's in track form, 12.40's in street form. It sounds to me that you had a bad experience with your car and are being bitter about it. But spreading this idea that LS1s are unreliable is just utter horse****. Do you think an old school SBC never had an oil pump die, taking the engine with it?

As for piston slap, that affects exactly what? So your car makes a funny sound for the first 3 minutes of driving after being parked overnight? So what? My car has some piston slap, and once again I have yet to have any problem after running the car hard on a regular basis. It's obvious you're just grasping at straws.

First of all, most of the engines I looked at had 50k or less miles on them. They're also designed to exceed 150k miles, just like a typical SBC. While it's true that crate motors have zero miles on them, a lot of crate motors don't have a warranty for anything more than 3 months. A lot of salvage yards offer the same warranty on used engines bought from them. GMPP is the exception with the warranty on their crate engines, but it's a little known fact that if you did not buy your GMPP crate engine from a GM dealership, the warranty is null and void. Thus you still have issues with warranties being a picky thing. Any company is going to do all they can to avoid paying out to replace a motor used in racing applications.

Secondly, how in hell are you going to spend an additional two to three thousand dollars on installing an engine and transmission in your car?! Tell me where these additional $2000 in parts are coming from? Even assuming that it did cost you $7k to put an LS1 in your car, the Ram Jet 502 costs $9000 to buy, a solid $2000 more than the theoretical $7k LS1. Then you would have the additional costs and work of putting a big block in your thirdgen.

Another thing to consider: Thunder Racing's TReX camshaft made 451 rwhp in a 99 Trans Am with stock unported heads. No doubt, the camshaft is big and it runs rough. But I can 100% guarantee that you will not ever make over 300 rwhp on a TPI car with stock heads. You will have to buy a $2000+ set of AFR heads to even come close to the flow potential of factory LS1 castings.

From my very first post, I have presented nothing but facts. They include:

• LS1s will regularly see in excess of 27 mpg on the highway. (Personally verified by me on a 15 hour trip from Florida, obtaining 29 mpg)
• LS1s will typically make 370+ horsepower in stock trim and 400+ with very minor bolt-ons. (Personally verified by my car on a dyno)
• LS1s can regularly be purchased for $4000 and under, complete with engine, transmission, wiring harness, ECM, accessories, intake, throttle body, fuel injectors, etc. (Personally verified by me looking on eBay.com)
• LS1s can easily run low 13 second quarter mile times in stock trim, and rip through the 12s with minor bolt-ons. (Personally verified by me at the track with my car and my friend's car)
• LS1s can easily live in excess of 80k miles with regular 6000+ RPM beatings, without blowing up or losing an oil pump. (Personally verified by me with my own car, and the numerous other cars around my work.)
• LS1s can make in excess of 400 rwhp with just a camshaft change. (Personally verified by me watching Jason's 1999 Trans Am make 451 rwhp on the dyno with the TReX)

There is no doubt that a conventenial SBC can make as much or more power than LS1 when built properly. But once again, when considering dollar-to-horsepower ratios, the LS1 is clearly a great value. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

Name one reason why piston slap truly matters.

 

I didn't come in here to get into a pissing contest, so I will try to keep my responses to a minimum. I will edit out your comments a bit so the post isn't so long.
I never said that LS1's were unreliable or would blow up when strapped to a dyno. I have seen my fair share of LS1's run and I know better than that. I have no idea what the h@ll you are talking about. I've seen a sh*t load of LS1's, so you must be an F-body ***. Congrats.
You say that YOUR LS1 has 76k miles on it, and that's your evidence that there was no oil pump problem? The only other evidence you provide is you're friends track times. Your arguements make no sense. I went ahead and did a little search on CZ28.com and found that the '98 model year cars had the problem with the pressure release valve getting stuck open dumping oil back into the oil pan and providing no oil pressure. Since most people don't watch their guages constantly it results in a spun bearing. In '99, GM revised the oil pump design so there haven't been problems for the '99+ cars. But you know this since you have seen sooooo many LS1 cars, right???
Yeah, I'm grasping at straws...you "win". Piston slap is annoying. I don't get it much unless it's winter since I live in sunny S.Texas...but it's still annoying. for those of us that are actually kinda particular about our cars - it's ANNNOYING.
You tell me. Scroll up and you'll see StngKlr thinks he can finish his up at $7k and is already in it for $6k...FLYNLOW92rs spent $10k on his (granted he had a tranny and rear axle swap in there too - along with having a shop do it)....but no one has done this swap under $4k. The RamJet 502 can be found Here for $8500, and that's just from a quick search on the internet. If you have a buddy at a GM parts counter like I do, it can be had for significantly less. That's 510 H.P. out of the box of mild bigblock power... with proper cam selection, etc it could ba a LOT more. Why spend 7-10 THOUSAND DOLLARS to put a used motor in your car? I have problems trusting parts from the local parts yards, and I'm supposed to trust one over EBAY????

I agree, but who said anything about a TPI car and performance? My only reference to the TPI was on fuel economy. Put a T56 on a good-running TPI and with that torque at 1500 rpm I bet you'd see upwards of 30mpg. I never said the stock TPI had the same power potential...I posted my timeslips so obviously I know better.

Your personal discoveries don't equal FACT (neither do mine although I presented them that way in a prior post). It may be your experience, but as I have stated my experience has been different. I have heard of some "factory freak" LS1 cars running low 13's BONE STOCK, but when you say in "stock trim" what does that mean? The average LS1 car BONE STOCK runs mid-high 13's depending on conditions. You stated yourself that it took exhaust and a lid to get you in the low 13's.

It's a GREAT platform if you are going to stay stock or mildly modded and it's already in a 4th gen car (hence I bought one)....but once you get into heavy bolt-ons and big $$$ (or your are spending $$ putting it into another platform like a 3rd gen), then the playing field levels out. You can get an highly modded LT1 car to run just as fast as an LS1 car....or a carbed SBC...etc. So your friend run's 12's with $20k car and a $600-$800 cam (assuming a self install). So what? I have a friend with a '71 Camaro (all steel) with full interior, a SBC with edelbrock alum heads, a RPM airgap intake and a holley demon car that runs mid 11's, and I can guarantee you he doesn't have $20k in it. *shrug*

We seemed to have gotten off subject here, so I will wrap this up. My last comment on this subject:

 

It can and will wear your engine down faster and eventually cause you to throw rods. Im not trying to come off rude here but it just seems to be you don't own a LS1 despite what you say and that you just merely are "around them", im not trying to say the LS1 is inferior, I know it is superior in every way to its GEN I/II counterparts, but right now, they're just too much $$$, the aftermarket parts are the same, very high priced. I mean, if you throw a hot cam in any car, say goodbye to your beautiful MPG.

 

Geez... where to start.

HAHA.. Too funny. Stock LS1 heads flow about what 240/180 i/e. Afr 210's flow 290/220 i/e. Yeah..... I'm going to have to say that AFR's flow a little better. And even ported, the best i've really seen out of stock castings is 270-280 on the intake. stage 3 port jobs cost $2500+, AFR 210's are only $1500.

um, no. try about 15% for an automatic.(about 12% for a manual)

which puts you at 340 flywheel.

in a world where people can't do math. pull the engine out, and verify it on an engine dyno. guesstimations aren't good points for aruments.

Actually they usually run mid-high 13's in bone-stock off the showroom floor trim. many peoples definition of "stock" differs.

Considering that 450rwhp will put you in the low 11's, maybe even high 10's. that is very hard to believe.

I Think your forgetting that a USED ls1 isn't a crate engine. The crate LS1 from Gm costs $6000. big difference. So if you want to compare used engines. Give me a used L98 short block for cheap, and for under $4000 dollars I could build a complete engine that would smoke the doors of off damn near any 346 ci LS1.

As i've said before, the LS1 is a great engine, its by far the best FACTORY engine to come out of general motors doors yet.

But also I think it is highly overrated, and too expensive. And by too expensive I mean the cost to modify it as well. Hell a roller rocker swap will cost $700. a great set of heads is about $3000. Its not a good platform for a poor college student to make fast. His money will go a lot faster with a SBC.

And as said above, you could by a perfectly fine RUNNING LT1 car for the cost of a LS1 engine. The whole damn car that will run a low 14 stock, and is cheap to modify.

And for the cost that say flyinlow paid for his LS1 swap, you could have a 4th gen with a lS1 in it. and money still in the bank.

The bargin that is the LS1 is a moot point, because it isn't a bargin.

Makes a lot of power, YES
Has potential to make tons more power, YES
Are there much cheaper and easier ways to get there, YES.

 

You clearly stated in your post that "...the motor had to be rebuilt when it ate an oil pump...a COMMON problem." Stating that the oil pump is a common problem would lead a person to have the misconception that the LS1s are unreliable. If you didn't intend to give anyone that idea, it's probably not a good idea to type "COMMON" in all caps, as if 8 out of 10 LS1s had a failed oil pump.

Nope, but considering I've seen hundreds of f-bodies just in the last 6 months and none of them died to an oil pump, it is merely more evidence against the "COMMON" oil pump problem. Unless I've just gotten lucky a few hundred times.

I provided two different LS1 cars that are run hard on a regular basis with more than 76k miles (or 85k miles on the 12 second car). If naming high mileage cars which see 6000+ rpms on a regular basis "makes no sense" then I guess I'm wasting my time here.

First, I would be searching on ls1tech.com for technical information regarding oil pump problems on LS1 vehicles. Camaroz28.com's LS1 community is much smaller and thus is a smaller sampling. But I digress, the oil pump problems have been documented on 1999 and up model cars as well. However, there was never a major epidemic that you alluded to when you wrote it was a "COMMON problem." If someone is worried about the LS1 they just bought, they can change the oil pump before installing the engine in the car.

Wow, that's a good reason not to install an affordable 400 horsepower engine into a car with more interior squeeks and rattles than a Ford Pinto. But hey, that's your perogative.

Pretty convenient that you want to talk about what StngKlr said. I guess you were just hoping that I would overlook the part where he said, "You could do this swap for 4K with the right platform to start with. Mine however, is a totally different story. No interior, peg legged rear, V6, etc..."

You found it for $8500, but I somehow doubt a dealership is going to let their employees sell an $8500 engine at cost very often. Besides, most people don't have inside connections for expensive big block engines. Otherwise they probably wouldn't be posting here asking if the LS1 swap was worth it. Instead, they'd be out installing or driving their big block powered thirdgen. As long as we're hypothesizing about scoring big blocks from our buddies for cheap, they can get an LS1 from their buddy at the salvage yard for cheap, too! Isn't it great that these magical buddies exist everywhere?

And with proper cam selection, etc, the LS1 could be a LOT more than 400 HP. All while weighing 200+ lbs less than the big block.

That's a matter of personal preference. However, the original poster didn't ask if you trusted used engines from eBay. They asked if the LS1 swap was worth it. Hey, if you don't trust any used engine at all, I hope you plan on rebuilding yours every oil change to make sure you can trust it.

I did. It was a comparison of the ease of modification between an LS1 and an old school SBC. The same holds true for an LT1. You will never make 451 rwhp NA on an LT1 without touching the heads.

Supposition is irrelevant in debate. If someone has actually obtained 30 mpg on their TPI car, great for them. But I have never seen anyone claim that they did. However, I will not argue that the double overdrive of the six speed transmission provides a significant boost in fuel economy. Just keep in mind that I obtained 29 mpg with an automatic. My L98 never even came close to touching that fuel economy with it's 700R4, which is essentially the same transmission as the 4L60E in my Formula. TBI cars can get close to LS1 fuel economy (my 89 RS got 27 mpg hwy), but you're stuck with a whopping 170 hp 305.

It is a fact that my car makes almost 400 horsepower for $400 in mods. It is also my personal experience. The two are not mutually exclusive. If you don't think it's a fact, here is the dynograph showing a net of 309 rwhp:


Just because you've only been outside at night doesn't mean the sky isn't blue.

And I have seen many factory, non-freak cars run low 13's bone stock (including the paper filter). I thought you were preaching to me about taking personal experience as fact, yet here you are taking your lack of experience ("I have heard of some..." is what you said) to mean that it doesn't happen. Track times vary wildly according to the track, driver, and conditions. So you're going to deny an LS1's ability to run low 13's stock because you haven't seen it? Well, feel free to post on ls1tech.com or any other number of LS1 enthusiast sites and ask for timeslips on stock cars. Frankly, I wouldn't give two ****s about what my LS1 made stock if I could pick up 20 rwhp with $400 in mods. Throw that $400 into that magical pile of $2000 LS1 installation parts if you want.

No, the LS1 is a great platform for any power level. The cylinder heads are flat-out, 100%, without-a-doubt, better than any other SBC, LT1, LT4, or other cylinder head offered by the factory. The only way to get SBC heads near the flow levels of an LS1 is with aftermarket choices. Thus, the more you do to the engine, the more it responds since the cylinder heads don't choke it down. This is why it is capable of making 451 rwhp with stock unported cylinder heads.

I never said that you couldn't, and I actually stated you could. You know, the part where I typed, "There is no doubt that a conventenial SBC can make as much or more power than LS1 when built properly."

No, my friend runs 12's with an $11k car and an untouched engine. I never said he has a camshaft, because he doesn't. He has headers, off-road y-pipe, exhaust, underdrive pulley, and drag radials. The camshaft and the torque converter are untouched. The valve covers have never even been off the car.

And Mustang 5.0 guys will run 11's with half the money in it than your friend's 71 Camaro. So what?

You are correct. The whole reason I entered this thread is due to the sheer amount of misinformation being spread. I could care less if someone puts an LS1 in their thirdgen or not, but discouraging others from doing so by bending the truth is just flat out stupid and wrong. The LS1 performs very well in stock or modified trim, it gets exceptional gas mileage, it is reliable, and you can pick up everything you need for the swap for under $5k. Worth it? That's up to you.

 

There are literally thousands of LS1 cars on the road today with in excess of 100,000 miles. GM would be in a world of hurt (in the form of a class action lawsuit) if the engine was so short lived. Piston slap has never been proven to be anything but annoying.

As for questioning what I own, feel free to drive to Baton Rouge and see the car for yourself. You'll feel real stupid for driving all this way to see a nearly stock LS1 car, but you can check out my thirdgen while you're here if it'll make you feel better!

 

LOL

LOL, It doesn't make 400 horsepower. take your head out of your ***. A drivetrain (transmission, driveshaft, differential, axles, and wheels) only take a certain amount of power to turn. Because they only have a certain rotating mass. So take the power you made 309rwhp. and add the amount of horsepower it takes to turn the drivetrain. And i am positive you don't get 400 fwhp. you've got 360 at best. the more power you make, it doesn't take any more to turn the drivetrain.

So no it is NOT a fact that your engine makes 400 hp. your guesstimating and guesstimating WRONG. your engine makes 310hp to the wheels. and NOT 400hp at the flywheel.

So you decided to join in and make it worse? your posting more BS than anyone. All Hail the LS1 expert Brad :hail: who has dynoed a dozen or so LS1's.

and Lt1's L98's and carbed motors aren't?
I love the mis-conception that a lot people have. That any car that isn't 10 years new, or any car that doesn't have fuel injection. My uncle has had a '78 chevy pickup for lord knows how many years now. never does a thing to the engine but change the oil and and a tune up now and then(cap, rotor, plugs, wires) and the engine has 212K miles on it(350). sure it doesn't run like new, but it never stops running. Any properly mantained engine is going to be reliable. Its too bad i can't find that thread from a while back where RB went on a rant about.

You sit here and post one car that made 451rwhp like every car will.

2 things.

A. lets see some track times, because dynos can be good liars.

B. I could go find 40 cars with high amounts of horsepower where they did little to the engine. it's not that hard, you just found one powerful LS1 and decided to ***** it across this thread. I could give a rats ***.

This thread is getting old.

 

Since most of your post is just a rehash of what has already been said, it's pretty pointless to retype a big response to everything. But I did want to touch on one thing.

Here you go:
http://www.thunderracing.com/dynogra...n=read&pgid=60. Just to be clear, this was not done on a bone stock car, which would be a stupid claim. I was only trying to get the point across that you do not need expensive ported cylinder heads to make power with an LS1.

 

No **** it's an estimate. Just like you're estimating that I make 360 horsepower. The difference is that you're assuming an automatic transmission to be more efficient than a six speed car. It can vary according to many factors, but six-speed cars generally are at least 15% loss. Lets be really generous and assume that my car only loses 18% between the flywheel and rear wheels. This would still put me between 375 and 378 flywheel horsepower, because 375 - 18% (67.5) = 307.5 rwhp. However, I have never known an automatic to be that efficient and you have yet to provide any evidence that it is.


If I'm so full of ****, how come you haven't provided any factual information to prove me wrong? Your counter points all consist of "you're wrong, I'm right." Where are your time slips? Where are your dyno graphs? I don't claim to be a huge expert on things, but I do claim to have personally witnessed more cars actually being tested, instead of second-hand hearsay that you read on the 'net.


This is where you are WAY off from my point. Of course SBC are reliable! I never made claims to the contrary! I was defending the LS1 against claims that oil pump failures were common. Please try to actually read my posts instead of just picking up little parts of them and then assuming I was talking **** about an SBC. I own a SBC, I know that they're great/wonderful/fantastic/stupendous engines. I know they can make power, I know they are reliable, I know they are cheap, I know all of this! I never came here to say any SBC was bad, I came here to offer a viewpoint that defended the LS1 based on personally witnessing what the engine can do. I own both engines and I love both engines.

The car is down at the moment for transmission problems (won't shift out of fourth). However, the car ran 11.20's when it dynoed at 380 rear wheel horsepower, before the camshaft change.

Indeed it is. It is tiring to see people assume that I am insulting the SBC when I talk about the good things an LS1 has (including good value).

 

Brad,
You are correct in just about everything you said. It is a waste of time to argue with some people. Just to point out a fact about the LS1 that I have mentioned before to everyone. Take into consideration that the Al. block is taking 100+lbs off the nose of these cars. So what does that translate into?? Oh thats right better 1/4 times with less HP. Oh and you also get to put in a 6 speed that can take the power unlike the factory T-5s with a strong clutch setup at the same time.

I was talking to my buddy about posts like this and he said "Just tell them you put an LS1 in your car because you can!" That statment is VERY true! Hell if I could have found a viper V-10 I would have stuck that in. lol I think a few people on here need to better research the LS1 before they make them selves look like retards and say "It is a waste of money...bla bla bla" Well even if they think it is did the money come out of there pockets? No!! So for $10k I can have a fully rebuilt car that runs low 11's, I can drive daily and get a few extra miles between the pit stops. That doesn't sound bad to me. Almost forgot the killer 3rd gen looks too!

BTW Brad that T-rex cam is a bit on the crazy side for a street cam even in the LS1. (I was looking at getting one and was told 500RWHP+ with my setup. That is a little to much to run on the streets in my opinion.) Maybe next year.

 

I was going to stay out of this, but you have misquoted me:

If you finish the sentence you'll see that I said "...in EARLY LS1's. Since I didn't specify, you assumed. You seem to be good at that.
So you are suggesting that you see/know these people with '98 and early '99 year cars and all of them have NEVER had an oil pump failure? lol. Mmkay. I guess GM revised the oil pump design because they were imagining things.
What are you arguing here? I never said LS1's were unreliable. I referred to a common problem existed with the early LS1's oil pump...that's all. GM became aware of it and fixed it, and myself and 2 other '98's had the same problem. I never alluded to any "epidemic".
Just like I wouldn't put $5k 'dubs' on a $500 rattletrap. I guess things are different in your 'hood'.
nope, I pointed out the FACT that it's costing him approx $7k and the FACT that others have spent as much or more, but you choose not to see that. His "theory" that it could be done for less is only a possibility.
And with proper cam selection, and 4k in mods, ANY motor can get over a lousy 400 hp. Besides, you haven't proven YOUR car makes 400hp...looks like 309rwhp to me. Since you are making 29mpg, that means your car is probably not generating a 22% drivetrain loss.
Well, if you think about it in terms of dollars and cents then he did ask if I would trust a used engine. Because if I don't - and he's asking for my opinion - then to me, a used LS1 engine with 50k+ miles is gonna get rebuilt (or at least pulled apart and inspected) before I go through the hassle of installing it. What's the point of installing a LS1 and find that it has a spun bearing? You can't tell those things by the pics they post on ebay. You can't tell that when you are looking at it at a parts yard, either. My point is that you have to factor in the $$ to pull it apart and inspect it before the install.

. Good for you. I doesn't mean that everyone will. I don't.
Its not a FACT until you remove the engine and strap it to an ENGINE DYNO. Until then, it's You make 309 RWHP. That's good. I made approx 230 RWHP with my flowmaster-equipped L98. Using your 22% drivetrain loss figure, that would put me at - 280 flywheel horsepower. Talk about underrated from the factory!!!! Woah!!!


No, I have heard of some in *this* case means the FACT that I have not personally WITNESSED it happen since I don't know anyone that didn't mod their LS1 right away. I am not, did not and will not deny that it is possible. That also doesn't mean that it happens with every car - which is what most LS1 drivers seem to believe. Fortunately, I took my blinders off a long time ago when I put my car on the track and the dyno.

Yeah, that's why so many weekend racers build LS1's for their race cars. They are all over the place, aren't they?

Master of the obvious! That's why I said the LS1 is good for a mild buildup. Once you get into working heads, whether you are building LS1 or LT1 or SBC - the playing field levels. BTW, what's a forged bottom end package for an LS1 running nowadays?
The important thing to note here is that it's more expensive with the LS1. In this gentleman's case he's debating swapping it into a thirdgen, so you have to factor the cost of the swap in too.

I thought the point here is obvious. What I meant was that swapping in the LS1 is not worth it from a performance standpoint. There are much less expensive ways to go fast. No one is arguing that the LS1 swap doesn't work. I never said it wasn't reliable and I didn't spout any so-called misinformation. I gave my opinion based on real-world experience. IMO, it's not worth it because even if you got away with spending - say $5k on the swap...you still have a 10+ year old car that has 100k+ miles on the body/suspension that's worth LESS than a comparable LS1 car complete. But it's just my opinion.

 

...and your proof that it isn't that efficient is where?

Maybe you are assuming that we are assuming...I don't see you bashing the SBC, but you arent acknowledging the SBC has the better 'bang for the buck'...particularly when in most cases the motor already rests between the framerails.

 

About the whole oil pump thing, my dad's '99 Silverado has 350K miles on it with only the oil pump being changed at 300K. No piston slap, no oil pump failing, just regular maintenance.

 

I'll just quote myself here. I said my "PROJECT" will not go over 7.5K. The LS1 install has been paid for for quite some time now.

LS1 specific:
LS1, 4L60E, Acc., Wiring Harness, Computer - $3,000
Motor mounts, tranny crossmember, tranny mount - $250
Fuel Pump - $100
Wiring, connectors, hoses, etc... - $100
MAF - $65 Used (which should come w/the motor)
Labor - Free, just my time, but thats cheap.

I'm not even at 4K yet, what am I forgetting? Everyone knows that the prices will vary, but not much. +/- $500 lets say, to me that sounds like a good deal. But thats me.

I'm not going to argue about anything, just clearing up what I said.

 

This thread has gotten so silly I have even been told I don't know what I am talking about, yet my sig shows I have 3 Camaros:

1. 82 Z28 305 Carbed, love this car but motor is old.
2. 96 Z28 SS typical mods, heads, cam, headers and such. 333 rwhp stock tuned, hate this motor with a passion, had to work on, opticrapper
3. 02 ZL1 C5R 427 (Stroked LS1)
--tune 1 509 rwhp 501 rwtq driveable but not as a daily driver
--tune 2 504 rwhp 497 rwtq driveable as a daily driver
The ZL1 gets 24/25 mpg on the interstate at 80/85 mph with a couple 130 stints.

Reasons to get LS1;

1. BECUASE YOU CAN!
2. My opinion best motor GM has built.
3. Easy to work on. I have done mods on LT1 and LS1. LS1 is easy.
4. An LS1 will get better gas mileage than other sbc after once you start modding.
5. DID I MENTION BECUASE YOU CAN.



Reasons not to get an LS1.

1. BECAUSE YOU CAN
2. It ain't cheap, when doing a conversion, but parts are getting cheaper.
3. Parts are relatively hard to find. SBC have parts a dime a dozen.
4. BECAUSE YOU CAN.

Ya'll are making this a pissing contest.

Its funny, everyone is badmouthing the LS1 (cuz it ain't cheap, which it ain't) but most do respect the LS1 or they wouldn't be impressed with their, their buddies, or the ones they heard about through the board, which it sounds like everyone here is.


My 82 Z28 is getting an 02 LS6, talk about pricey!

http://community.webshots.com/album/131030856upsxvS

 

How is an LS1 easier to mod? You do the exact same mods to an LS1 that you do to an LT1 in the exact same manner.


On another note, nice ZL1

 

Changing the cam in an LS1 is much easier. The oil pan gasket and timing cover gasket do not overlap. Hence, no need to fight the front part of the oil pan. You do not have to remove the intake either. Valve covers do not warp or leak. Much the same for other gaskets. No opti or distributor makes life much easier.

 

Chris,
I should've given you that ride when you were down to buy the GTA. Sorry I didnt man, but next time you're down this way let me know and we can take the car out for a bit. I ordered a new set of wheels today too . Call me or whatnot and I can talk to you again about it all if you want, since as you know we did it all here at the house. Look at my site again to see the general process for what I did.

Link


The rest of this thread is trash and I want my 5 minutes back that I wasted reading everyone argue over stuff.[

 

you have obviously never ever dealt with LS1s or know anyone who has because if you did you wouldn't be so ignorant. with bolt-ons in a heavier fourth gen car they are running low 12s, no tearing into the engine at all. with some weight reduction and slicks, 11s is common place, and still no tearing into the engine. heads, cam, gears, and tuning yield 10s all motor. LS1s aren't "magic" but they are superior to the original gen I and LT1 engines. better heads, lighter weight, better heat dissipation. They are more efficient, hence able to make a lot more power, with better fuel economy, and smaller displacement. is it the best RACE engine? definitely not, but if you want a daily driver that can kick everything from juiced big blocks to italian supercar ***, an LS1 is the best engine for the job. Quite a few are putting down over 500 HP at the wheels and getting average 25 MPG with excellent streetability and emissions legal. The LS2 will be out soon and LS1 prices will come down.

 

i personally wouldnt even waste my time with a lt1... for all the effort put forth u might as well save anothr 2 g's and pop in a nice ls1 that will rip on the lt1 all day.... just my opinion.... (why go better when u can go best?)

 

lol, budgets, thats all :-/ I'd love a 382 all bore LS1 in my third gen but I kinda don't make anywhere near enough rofl. aww well, I can dream about the 9 sec daily driver

 

Put the extra 2 grand you spend on a LS1 on the lt1 and it can get 440 rwhp with a the power band high at all rpm's. Its a matter of preference. The LS1 is no ***.

Responds well to mods....yes
Better design....... Yes
More effecient.....Yes

Cheaper to mod....no
Can be bored over for little costs....keep dreaming, you need to sleeve a LS1 in order to bore it over .30, not sure about anything lower.

The Gen I's and Gen II's are no joke, neither are the LS1's. But if you buy the Lt1 for $800, put 2 grand in it, your smoking LS1's, even bolt on Ls1's. Thats not to say one is better than the other. But the Gen I & II are not chump motors, why do you think people still build them?

 

Does anyone wonder why GM stopped putting LT1's in the f-body's after 1997?

They made a BETTER engine......The LS1

Now does that mean the LT1, SBC's and Gen I and Gen II are not good motors, no, they are still good motors....

But the LS1 is a better motor and of course in this world, if you want the best, you can expect to pay the price.......

As I've mentioned, the cheapest way to build power is NOT AN LS1, It's a best foundation to build power (and consequently most expensive)

Pasky sum'd it up for everyone.....It's a better design and more efficient, responds to mods well.......but it costs a crap load more

 

They stopped making hemmi's decades ago, and I'm not talking about the crap they put in trucks either now. But that is what top fuel runs today. Just because they stop making something or replace one engine with another doesn't mean one is any better than the other.

 

I agree with scotland all the way through this thread... LS1s are damn cool, but aside from the coolness factor, it is not a good swap unless you get one for a deal.

 

The only people saying the LS1 isn't worth it...don't have one. That says it all.

 

Puh lease, I could have grabbed one if I had wanted it so badly. Hell my cousin owns a 2000 Trans am. The only people who think like that are the ones in denial and therefore try to feel secure in thier purchase by saying no one else got a LS1 because they couldn't afford it but 'they' could. Take that crap somewhere else.

 

I'm pretty sure there wasn't a natural progression due to influence from the government and the market available back then.....The hemi was stopped for other reasons then a new engine comming into the market....

But if you look from 1982 to when the camaro/firebird was stopped, you can see a natural progression of improvement....They replaced the LT1 with the LS1 for a reason

 

Yeah the HEMI stopped mainly because the gas shortage, and insurance on a HEMI car, or any muscle car, was outrageous.

Back to topic, if I ever get another thirdgen. I'm doing the LS1 T56 swap. I want to have 2 thirdgens that have 4th gen plants in 'em!

 

i beleive that lt-1s are good engines .. maybe even great engines.... ppl that do ls1 swaps OBVIOUSLY wanted an ls1... i dont think u would go and spend 3-4 g's on the engine itself without doing any research.... i mean ... if i wanted i could have a lt-1 right now... but i dont ...i want a ls1.... because its just my opinion and i like them better... but i do no the facts .... and i wouldnt spend 4g's for HP when i can spend $2-2500 for the same HP... its just being able to have a newer engine that i like... i like the looks of it better... and it gets great gas milage when compared to my l03 and it has 2 times the power....but yea.. in conclusion.... i feel that getting an ls1 over an lt-1 is either a financial descision or just a plain liking toward one or the other...

 

Actually I do, with the same cam you do plus a few other goodies. An LS1 is a good engine, but so is an L98, if you already have a good starting point why bother with an entire swap?

 

I didn't say anything about people being able to afford anything...didn't even infer it. If you're driving a 3rd gen (like I am) you're pretty much making a statement that dropping chunks 'o cash on a car isn't your bag.

So...you could have had an LS1 if you wanted to...and your cousin owns a 2000 Trans Am... uuuhhh.... OK. Not sure what you're inferring, what do those two things make you?

I stand by my earlier statement, the only guys bashing the LS1 don't have one, as is the case with you.

 

I never stated I didn't like it, so not sure what you are refering to and as stated by other people in this post, durtybird and 25th, they both own or owned a LS1 and don't make it out to something its not. So go you can throw that statement out the window.

 

I'm not bashing the LS1. But I do own one (my '98 Formula). Its a good motor.

I am merely trying to convey that I don't think the swap is worth it unless you score an LS1 for LT1 prices (probably not gonna happen).

I could use your logic to state that the only people who would bash putting a Ferrari engine in a 3rd gen are people who don't own one.

 

oh good lord, why bring this beast back from the dead.

This old horse is dead as door nails......can't we all just let this thread rest in peace

 

Exactly, this is going nowhere

Nobody with the LT1 swap is come into here and praise the fact they should have spent more money on their swap because they are obviously happy with what they have

Nobody with the LS1 swap is gonna complain and moan about how they spent too much money to get to their horsepower goals....

 

I went out today and plunked down 4500.00 for an LS1/T56 and all the stuff i could use off the donor car(a '99T/A). Why did i do this? Well, I liked the fact I got a low mileage engine (43k), I liked the fact even though it is stock ,it has more horsepower than a LT1, I liked the fact that I wouldn't have to deal with the dreaded optispark,I liked the fact that I could resleeve the motor when it needs a rebuild , I liked the fact that it is lighter than an LT1. I really wasn't concerned so much about the cost factor but i can certainly understand how someone on a low budget would be.I could have went out and bought a 4th gen car , but I like the way a 3rd gen looks , and I like the fact that I have a convertible that is harder to find and more unique.I also love to mod my car and the fact the LS1 is more of challenge to install appealed to me ,too.I plan on keeping the a/c because it is also more of a challenge.does it make me better than you?no.Does it makes me anything more than someone who purchased exactly what I wanted and am happy with my decision?no.It's all apples and oranges and the best best way to make a decision is to research it , find accurate information , and then decide. this is my .02 and if you didn't like what i have to say , then flame on ,but i will not respond to it. If I feel the need to argue with someone and listen to name-calling ,then i can just click on yahoo chat .Buh bye now