This advice is to anybody thinking of spending some serious money on a 305. Get rid of a 305 and get a 350 where you can really add some serious horsepower. Don't get me wrong , a 305 is actually good in some cases. No, not really . 305s are weak plain and simple.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

The thing is when I drive my Chevy Nova with all that power you kind of get spoiled. Then I take my Camaro out for a drive and you realize that this 305 is pathetic in low end power. It actaully does good at high end. It's like a bullet cutting through the wind.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Let's see, a baseline GM replacement 350, $1300 plus tax & shipping. Then replace the cam because the factory part is an elongated paperweight (replacement is still flat tappet, but at least it's less than $80). Humm, springs won't take the new cam's lift. Those press-in rocker studs worry me, too (I have some new screw-in studs left over from a previous project). Off come the heads - Hey, those are dished pistons! Might as well do some porting on these 76cc chamber heads (sure hope I don't hit water) before I send them to the machine shop. Oh, need a better intake & exhaust, gasket set, too. Retune the induction system while I'm at it. Wonder what it would cost to put flat top pistons in there? Why didn’t this thing come with a 350 harmonic balancer?

Well, a performance crate engine is only around $2000. But, still don't like that cam. Same spring problem (did she say it has screw-in studs or not?). Exhaust & induction problems still exist. Boy, that freight rate is high!

But, wait, check the classifieds; here's a used 350 4-bolt, $300. Okay, needs a total rebuild - heads are boat anchors, too. Sure would like a roller cam (but those retro lifters are PRICEY!). Heads, rebuild kit, machine work, pieces I didn't get that I need to find (What's a driver's side dipstick? What do people do to those poor harmonic balancers, anyway?). Those rockers don't look too good, either. Exhaust & induction problems still exist. Wow, that $2000 sure looks good right now. Hello? You're from the machine shop? You say the block is cracked? What about the rods? You have another rebuildable short block for $350 plus machine work but it's a 2-bolt?

Perhaps I should have gone for that ZZ4 after all. It's only $3300 plus tax & shipping. Well, still need to do tuning & exhaust. Hey, the conversion kit is only a grand more.

Or, this real-life situation: Fellow thirdgen'r sold me a low-mileage '87 LB9; he threw in the ZZ3 cam & intake he didn't use on his project for a grand total of $250 (after all, who wants a 305?). World 305 heads, unassembled, exchange screw-in studs for better springs (glad the Worlds are machined for those studs I have), $600 shipped. Gaskets, $50. Some time with the die grinder to gasket match & pocket port the heads, then put it all together. Better put in a new oil pump while I'm at it, $30. So, $930 in it plus the same exhaust and retuning costs that a 350 would have had. Minus what I'll get selling off the TPI parts from the LB9. And the 135k-mile LG4 longblock (somebody needs one for their Caprice).

Who do you think spent the most dollars per 1/10 second reduction in 1/4 mile times?


P.S.: It probably still won't outrun the '57 with its Rat, but we wouldn't want to humiliate the old lady, would we? Besides, the Camaro is my commuting car...



------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R. 2.93 limited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LG4 w/LB9 block, ZZ3 cam and intake, WP 305 heads ported & polished, TBD headers & hi-flow cat).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.

 

Ok...What I am saying is, if you are going to spend some mula might as well go with a 350. I have buddies that have gone with so many mods on their 305s(we're talking about 2-3000.00worth of mods) then a 350 comes along with only some mods done to it and blows them away! I never hear the end of thier wimpering. My comment to them is "I told you so" lol

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

Depends on what you want, someone who doesn't want a win a race, but wants better gasmileage and less emissions might want a 305.

------------------
1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula LO3 Auto
-180 degree stat
-Hooker Cat-Back
*****Possible summer '01 mods*****
Open Element, Auburn Posi, Keyless Entry, wonder Bar off the IROC, 4th gen seats, T/A tail lights

1985 Camaro IROC-Z LB9 Auto
http://www.geocities.com/krt80/

 

Well,I guess I am referring to the ones that like performance . I think we have quite a few individuals here that are into winning races!Count me as one of them.

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Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

[This message has been edited by Big454blockchevy (edited January 26, 2001).]

 

Oh yeah, performance wise, when it comes down to pure flat out performance, the 305 kinda gets left behind with no chance, you could spend a lot of money and get a lot of power out of it, but the 350 would be a lot cheaper to get the same power.

 

I've been trying to avoid this post as this debate ALWAYS gets into a heated argument. But, there are a few facts: 1) the cost to rebuild a SBC 350 is generally cheaper than a 305 due to proliferation of parts, 2) equal modifications (head and cam specs), displacement yields more power, 3) What is "radical" on a smaller engine is "milder" on a larger engine, 4) the smaller bore size of the 305 just does not offer the same opportunities for heads as there is for the 350...which is the key to big power on a SBC.

In my opinion, valid reasons to rebuild a 305 are: 1) you have a numbers matching block and wish to retain it for collector status, especially for 1LE cars or convertibles, 2) you have limited funds and just want to "patch" it together to keep it running or, 3) you enjoy challenges or care to be different.

But if you seriously want performance, numbers matching means nothing and not concerned about collector's status, I would have to agree with getting a 350 core and building it.

 

Mr. 454Chevy, plz don't take this the wrong way but, there are a few small flaws in your logic.
1. We all like performance!
2. The comparison between your nova and a 305 is apples to oranges...er...454's to 305's
3. There are several young people here who have or can get 305's and, IMO we should be encouraging them to do the best with what they have. Not saying that their best effort with those isn't worth it.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, nor am I saying your wrong. I'm simply trying to keep the younger people here, who are just starting out in the wonderful world of hot rods, interested. We all had to start somewhere and did the best we could with what we had. I sometimes wonder why anyone would use a SBC for anything when the BBC and 472/500 cad's are all over and just as cheap, Then I remember. It's what they have, it fits easy and they like'em!

If nobody minds I'm going to go get a band-aid so I'm prepared for the a$$ chewing I'm about to recieve

------------------
'87 RS 402 Big Block
'92 S-10 Blazer 4X4
'77 3/4T Chevy 4X4 P/U with 500 Cadillac

 

I see your point. That is why I stated "This advice is to anybody thinking of spending some serious money on a 305". Now if you don't have the "serious money" to spend(not that I have it)sure you have to work with what you have. But eventually this young hotrodders will want more and all I am saying is when the time comes to quench that thirst for more power they need to know the facts. This is fact, a 350 will blow away a 305 with a moderate amount of mods. Ofcoarse if u can't go with a 350 right now, a 305 can be modded to somewhat respectable performance.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

As for "winning races", I've put 12-second cars on the trailer with my 16-second 305. It's called "bracket racing", or "ET racing". In this style of racing, the ONLY benefit to being faster is if the other guy Rudolphs (red lights), you get a free pass. But, that's an "if" that's completely out of your control. The typical race is won by cutting a good light and running your time. As often as not, those wins against a 12-second guy came when he was a half-second off his declared time. Sometimes, it's harder to win a race with a fast car...

Is it fun to go faster? Sure. Is it always practical? Of course not. So, as RS87 & I are saying, don't put down the guys that chose the road less taken. And, your premise that a 350 is cheaper is flawed - after all, why do you use the username that you use? Is a 350 cheaper to get into the 11's than a 454?

 

Come on! Look into it. By the way I chose the username cuz I like Big Blocks. And I am going to put one into my 86 Camaro. Five7kid what exactly is it that you disagree with me about? Tell me you don't see the point I am trying to make . Let's get real ! If you take for instance 2000.00 and modify a 305 and you take 2000.00 and modify a 350 which do you think would be putting out more power? (ofcoarse assuming the package for each motor was well planned) The 350 would!!!!!! But Like I stated earlier, a 305 can be made to have power. I will say it one more time, A 305 CAN BE BUILT TO HAVE GOOD HORSEPOWER!!!! A 305 CAN BE BUILT TO HAVE GOOD HORSEPWER!!! UP TO A POINT. tHE REALITY OF IT IS A WELL BUILT 350 EXTREMELY MODIFIED WILL BLOW AWAY A 305.

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Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

I don't have a 350 roller block. I do have a 305 roller block. For $2000, I would be faster with the 305, because I HAVE a 305, and I don't need to spend money on machine work. Part of that $2000 would have to go to buying the 350, and most likely a good bunch of it towards machine work and parts. Specifically, I'll be spending about $1200 to optimize my 305 (probably less after I sell what I don't use). I'd have to spend more than that just to buy and get a 350 together, and it still wouldn't have headers, ignition upgrades, and the like.

That's my point. Very often, the best money spent is on what you have. I'm NOT saying my 305 would be faster than a 350, just that it would cost me more to get a 350 that IS faster.

 

Play nice please.

 

I see your point five7kid. I guess it depends on each situation.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

Sorry but I am swapping out the 305 with a 350 as soon as I can get the money, along with the injection system.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

Go for it! YOu will be happy you did.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

To get a 350 from my junkyard w/ 30 day return time is $700. That would leave $1300 to play with. With $1300 worth of mods I'd like to think l could beat up on a 305 w/ $2000 worth of mods. I could be mistaken, but l doubt it.

Clayton

 

Well, I'll try to take Max's advice and play nice.

Phrases such as "serious money" and "as soon as I get the money" have been used here. If there isn't a more common theme in this hobby than "it ended up costing more than I'd planned" (see Steve Green's articles in the mag section, for instance), then tell me what is.

Let's use the example stated: $700 salvage yard 350. Is it a roller block (why settle for a flat tappet - we're upgrading here)? We all know factory cams are lame, so a new roller cam is $250-300 (okay, I already have the ZZ3 cam, so skip that one - never mind, you don't like the ZZ3 cam). Next in line are factory heads: $600-1300 to get decent ones. Roller rockers... Oops, there goes the $2000 budget! Still don't have headers or high flow cat, and haven't improved the induction. You also never know what you're getting from the salvage yard, and I doubt you'd want to replace the engine every 30 days, or that they'd welcome you back continuously on that interval ("You changed something in the engine?!!??!!!").

Back to my premise, with an example: One man's trash is another man's treasure. I've gotten many of the parts I'm going to use from a fellow thirdgen'r who started with a 305 TBI RS. He got a ZZ3 crate engine intending to keep the TBI. Before the engine went in, he changed his tune, picked up the LB9, then proceeded to get aftermarket base, runners, plenum, TB, ZZ9 cam, custom PROM, etc., leaving a lot of unused parts sitting around. Also converted it to dual cat. All that resulted in power increases that required transmission and diff upgrades. He has the SLP headers, but wants to get them coated so still hasn't gotten them installed. These are the types of mods that are talked about on these boards all the time. He's got well over 10 grand in mods alone already. But, he's produced a bunch of leftovers that he's willing to part with cheap - that's where I step in. I drive my car daily year-round, and race in the summer. His is a great summer toy, but I'll wager I'm getting more fun/$ than he is (bench racing not withstanding), on regular pump gas.

Am I going to run faster than most guys with 350's? Probably not. Does that bother me? No. Why? Because I can expect great improvements over the starting point for not nearly as many bucks ("Here's my first timeslip, here's today's, here's my receipts - $'s/.1 second reduction is..."). There's some satisfaction in that.

Bottom line: The cost goes up exponentially for increased power (or reduced ET's). The 305 is a SBC, and responds to the same mods as any other SBC (i.e., it's not fatally flawed or "weak" - for 7 years, there wasn't such a thing as a SBC over 5 liters), and can give just as much satisfaction/$ as the larger mice. Sure, the cost/performance curve is shifted to the left, but that doesn't mean that it is never worth it to work a 305.

Hey, I'm the 7th of 9 kids, having grown up in a small rural town where everybody knows you and your family back 3 generations ("Why can't you be more like your bother/sister?"). "Different" is part of my being, so I'll readily admit to that being part of my motiviation (so why do I drive Chevys?). But, then, I'm also motivated by $'s spent for value received (perhaps that's why I drive Chevy's)...

 

Let's not even start to talk about the hp/cid/$ ratio in the above stated example or the warm fuzzy feeling Five7kid is going to get when his creation made from "substandard" and "non-performance" parts puts a 350 in the rear view. ( I have faith in Five7 )

 

I can get several used 350 tpi engines complete with all sensors, accessories and wiring plus computer for 400-600. I also know of a used lt-1 with a 3,000 mile warranty for 800 complete with all accessories, wiring and computer. That sad 305 in my car is going as soon as I can afford another engine.

------------------
1990 5.0 AOD lx
best on old combo
13.65 at 104.57
347 stroker coming
1984 camaro z-28 stock and slow
1982 mazda rx-7, 350 swap in the works.
superstangs messageboard

 

(sighhhhh.....)

 

Play nice Five7kid like stated above. :d

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

Sorry. My bad. If I promise to play nice from now on, can I still have dessert?

 

id like to see a 63 fuelie vette 327 in 3rdgen, but i suppose id like to see it more in the original vette. but a 327, in general, would kick a*s in a 3rdgen. just a diffrent side on the story.

------------------
1985 WS6 Trans AM
T-tops
bone stock sloth of an engine LG4
T-5 tranny. thank god, i couldnt stand an LG4 auto.
Plans for an LT-1 or LT-4,
dual flowmaster exaust,
& a pounding stereo.
mods right now include a radar detector.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I agree with 454BigBlock cuz I'm getting a 350 HO put into my 92 Camaro. I'm gonna spend about $3500 to have it completely done(installed and everything)
I have a feeling that with the 330 HP that comes with it, I'd have a good portion of 305's sucking on the tailpipes. So, let's start with the $2000 thing. Let's make it $3500. $3500 on a TBI(no superchargers or anything) = what, 280-300 hp maybe? Not to mention your engine would explode in a few months of driving on engine that has been put through many surgeries. $3500 on my 350 HO = 330, plus I've already got the cat back, so I'd be way ahead. I think it's pointless to compare 305's to 350's especially when you're talking mods.
I had the plan to mod out my 305, but after looking into it, a cam, intake, heads, gears, headers, and full cat back, custom chip, ignition, and transmission kits would put you well over the allotted $3500, and you would be lucky to reach the 330 hp range with that.
Let's face it, I like the L03 engine, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it. It gives good gas mileage(cant say great, it's a Camaro) enough power to suffice some, engine last forever basically. But, how many people didn't buy the Camaro for the performance? Nobody? Oh thats right, Camaro's are performance cars, adn performance si what I expected from mine. Whenever I tell someone that I'm pushin 190 HP out of my V8, they laugh cuz their sixes are psuhing out 250. It saddens me to see this, so if you're going to spend the money, might as well get the 350.

Dave
92 Camaro RS
P.S. I used to be pro-305, but then I faced reality...sorry.

 

For $3500 I bought, rebuilt and installed my bigblock! Can we say 450 HP boys and girls?

 

Can we say "emissions", ladies and gentlemen? May not be a problem in Klamath Falls, but it is an issue for a large portion of the population that wants a good-performing daily driver. If emissions testing doesn't affect you now, it could very well soon in the Peoples Republic of Oregon.

Did your $3500 include transmission and differential upgrades? If not, you'll be spending a lot more soon. Does the $3500 include radiator, exhaust? Suspension upgrades?

Forgive me for being skeptical, but are you really including all your receipts?

Back to the premise: I congratulate all of you who have upped your displacement, whether 350, 383, 406, 427, whatever. But, don't flame those of us who aren't at that point yet (some of us are supporting families on one income). Took me 27 years and 7 engines to get the '57 above 400 cid - I've only had the Camaro for 19 months...

 

This is probably about dead by now but i thought i would add some info from a person that has already done the switch. I found a tpi motor that had 10,000 miles with everything i needed for the switch for $1000 dollars. I did the switch and im glad i did

------------------
Red 87'Z-28 350 tpi,MSD ignition 6al,gutted maf and airbox,
700r4 w/b&m shift kit and cor. servo

 

$3467.19 everything forward of the drivshaft (including the engine core). Radiator, exhaust and aquisition of the car itself. ( It's wonderful to have friends ) I'm saving to back half the car to install ladders or a 4-link.

Emmisions is no problem, we don't have any and oxyengenated gas is no longer required as of the end this month. I could have done a 350 for around the same and it cost me about $4300 to put the 500 cad in my truck.( that includes the rebuild) $3700 if I stayed with the manual trans. Given $2000 I would have put a 350 in because I have an 88 roller (long) block with 60k at a friends that I purchased for $200 ( and it runs too.) If I didn't have the 350 I would have most likely gone to a 305 because the core can be had for much less.

Not bad for supporting a family and 4 parrots on one income. No flame intended Five7, but, those of us who can, do. Those of us who can't, take a little longer.

The premise is, go with what you have and what fits in your budget. If you have a 305 and are on a limited budget don't worry, you'll be fine.

 

hey bigblock454,

why would you put in your signiture that you have a 454 in your '86 when you don't?

P.S.
go ahead, encourage everyone to get rid of thier 305s! The collector value of my car will just go up because i'll be the only one left with the original 305 in my car!

 

Look at my screen name. That is my nick. I think if i was to say I had a 454 in my 86 Z28 it would read like this: 86 Z28 w/454BBC. But I did not write it that way. Sorry my sig confused you.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

Now if you look at my sig it does tell you I've got a '72 Chevy Nova w/454BBC.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

But it still implies you have 454 in your camaro.

 

I am going to try and be more careful with my sig from now on. I promise.

------------------
Big 454 '86 Camaro Z28 '72 Nova w/454 BBC

 

I'm leaning towards replacing my 305 with a 350, only because I can build the 350 on a stand while the 305 continues to power my car. Since this is a daily driver, I can't afford to put it out of comission while I rebuild an engine. As long as I'm starting from scratch, I may as well go for displacement, right?

I have to agree with Five7 in principle, though. If I wasn't worried about the 'bird being out of comission I would build the 305, because I already have one. I'm also in the emissions and one income family boat. I'm lucky my wife likes loud cars and burnouts, otherwise I'd be driving a Cavalier or something.

 

Forget the 350, and get a 400. a 400 will blast a 350 out of the water in torque. hehehehe

 

why don't you people just drop this whole argument. If they want to spend their money on a 305 then let them. How will it affect you, well...your car will blow theirs away and what is so bad about that?

 

Yeah, if someone wants to build a slow 305 then let them. They have a right to build a low performance car.

------------------
Big 454 72 Chevy Nova
383 86 Camaro Z28

[This message has been edited by Big454blockchevy (edited March 05, 2001).]

 

I've got a 305 right now, I used to have a 327, which made tons more power then my 305, which right now has more performanc parts then my 327 had! The 305 is not a god base to build a performance engine. 305's are cursed with small bore sizes and a crank with too long of a stroke for such an engine.

Don't waste your time and money on a 305. If you want to build performance and are on a budget, then save up for a 350 or larger engine. If you have a lot of money to blow off, get a 350 or something bigger, you'll make more power off a 350 for lass then what you'd pay to get the same power off a 305.

 

Duke I definetely agree with you.

------------------
Big 454 72 Chevy Nova
383 86 Camaro Z28

 

What this topic isn't hitting 50 ? 9 more to go

------------------
Big 454 72 Chevy Nova
383 86 Camaro Z28

[This message has been edited by Big454blockchevy (edited March 08, 2001).]

 

Make that 8.

------------------
Big 454 72 Chevy Nova
383 86 Camaro Z28

 

7

I'm dropping my 305 this summer, just to let you know that I agree with you. I'm only 17, and I'm already making the swap, which means its not that expensive, It's only gonna cost me like $3700 total(and that's installed)

 

I will keep my thoughts to myself...

I WILL keep my thoughts to myself...

I will KEEP my thoughts to myself...

I will keep MY thoughts to myself...

I will keep my THOUGHTS to myself...

I will keep my thoughts TO myself...

I will keep my thoughts to MYSELF...


............

 

Lol. Five7kid keeping your toughts to yourself is bad for your health. Come on express them again u make good viewpoints.

------------------
Big 454 72 Chevy Nova
383 86 Camaro Z28

 

oops

[This message has been edited by Big454blockchevy (edited March 08, 2001).]

 

I really haven't seen anything posted here that I would consider "flames"...Just lots of opinions (we're all entitled to them)...As for ME; I am on a pretty tight budget (after a divorce) and I am considering getting a remanufactured 350 from AutoZone for a mere $700.00 ( I have a core for exchange) and immediately yanking out the cam in favor of a "real" one...Then installing all of my 305 H.O. stuff onto it ...Won't be the FASTEST thirdgen BUT should run pretty dang respectable...definitely better than the stock 305 did and the 3.42 gears & H.O exhaust system should help with the "quickness" (originally had 3.08s)...This is an "all else being equal" type of swap...So wish me luck...

 

By the way, Five7Kid is an aquaintance of mine; he's a real nice guy (& smart too)...

------------------
'83 Trans Am clone;
700R-4, 3.42:1 rearend,
'84 Z-28 suspension, dual snorkel H.O. air cleaner, H.O. exhaust manifolds & system, 180* 'stat, stock ECM. Awaiting 355 swap with CompCams 212/218 --.444/.444 -- 110* LSA

 

Just to keep the string going... I went from a 305 to a 350, and it felt more like going from a 6 banger to a 350. Maybe I just had a weak 305 (or maybe they're all weak without mods). All I know is that a stock 305 is like driving dump truck compared to a stock 350, at least that's been my experience with this car.

------------------
"If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because, man, they're gone." - Jack Handey