ive been toying with the idea swaping a 454 big block into my camaro or else building a twin turbo 350, is swaping a 454 worth the time money and nuckle busting? or is twins the way to go?

 

I think i'd go with the twin turbo'd 350, you could make a ton of power with that, as long as you have everything that will handle the power i.e. not a 700r4 tranny without a ton of beefing up haha just my opinion tho, im not a big fan of 454's

 

The twin turbo set on a 350 will get you more power than the 454 as long as you remember to reenforce the body/chassis to hold the power

 

i would go a 350 with a single big turbo. what are you building the car for?? show,race?

 

im going for a quick street car, that i can take to the strip

 

Why not a twin turbo 454?Cost to build isn't that much pore,but power potential is considerably more.Combine a pair of turbos with an E85 blow through carb and you could easily make 1000hp on pump gas.

 

Exactly. Why build a TT 350 which will pretty much be it's limit when you can build a 454 for just a little more and TT it or supercharge it. You'd get WAY more power from the 454.

Knuckle busting installing the 454? It isn't that bad. It fits the stock motor mounts from what I understand. Only thing you have to worry about fitment-wise is the passenger side headers which only requires you to hammer in a little bit of the firewall.

Also what was mentioned is the 700R4. Stock definitely isn't going to handle this. Also your rear end will be crying if not exploding. If you are going to be putting out this much power (even with the TT 350), you may want to look at upgrading the drivetrain/suspension and also look into a beefier trans before the engine. I am doing this on mine as I have plans on putting in a mild 496 and eventually adding on a supercharger.

 

no replacement for displacement. go with the 454. youll have pretty much unlimited space for future builds. with 350 you can build a great engine but you can only do so much unless you got a deep pocket book.

 

And that won't even be an issue because the turbo will require a custom made exhaust anyway.

I'd love to have an 8-71 or 10-71 poking through the hood with an Enderle injection system sitting on top but my tunnel ram works just fine.

 

Very true. I was thinking of an N/A setup

 

would a stock 350 or 454 hold this kind of power or would i have to go with a proformance block

 

The stock block would probably hold up. The internals most likely would blow up. Forged is the way to go with power adders.

 

wouldnt low compression pistons be better with a turbo motor??

 

Yes you will want at least 8:1 Compression pistions if your gonna run turbos, otherwise your not gonna be able to run much boost, and as far as blocks, for the 350 your probably gonna wanna try and find the high nickel block so its stronger, i cant remember the number for it right now but i know thier out there and thats definately what id use if i had the choice, idk much about 454's honestly

 

010 I believe are the ending numbers on the nickle block.

454 should be fine I am pretty sure. 4 bolt main or splayed.

 

Steve Morris from SMRE has shown that the limit of pump gas is about 3.7 HP per cubic inch, so, if you stick with a small block, yet stroke to a 383, you'll have an engine capable of 1,000+ Horsepower on pump gas. That is of course with the right setup. 8.0-8.5:1 compression, completely forged, some very decently flowing aluminum heads. Then of course the other supporting mods that would take paragraphs to write out. Then most likely a HUGE wallet to purchase.

I think for a street car, a twin turbo 383 would be the way to go, it will be my goal. I really do not see a need for more than 1,000+ Horsepower on the street, which is what it will be capable of at the right boost.

I really think your best bet would be a low boost twin turbo 383. You'd be able to make over 600 Horses at 10 PSI, most likely less. NRE is making 800 Horses on pump gas, reliably, from a 355. On I believe only 14 PSI.

 

you have to find a certain 010 block. i have 3 010 blocks sittin in my garage. they used 010 blocks from 68-like 82 or somehting. most COMMON block youll find. but if its an 010 block you gotta check the numbers on the driver side of the water pump. an 010 block could be a 302 (most rarest and most valuable block) a 327 305 or 350. if you get your hands on a 302, sell that bitch. youll get some bank money from some streetrod guy.

 

like shadow said, if you wanna build a badass 350 your gonna spend a lot of money. a 500 hp engine can live with stock rotating assembly. you wanna go more than 5-550 hp your gonna go forged. your gonna spend a LOT more money than just building a 454. IMO at least.

 

An 010 block is a 4" bore block. You will never find a 305 with a 4" bore block.

It's highly unlikely you'll ever find a 302 since they were only available for a couple of years and only in a few cars for the Can/Am racing series. The majority of the 010 blocks were used to make the 350 but it's possible to find a 327 if you search long enough. The only difference between the 302, 327 and 350 is the stroke.

For street use, most people are more than happy with 400HP which is easily obtainable with a well built 383 or 406. A BBC is just easier to make HP. Even a 396 BBC has more performance potential than a 406 SBC even though the bore and stroke are very close to the same. The BBC heads just have a lot more potential to support more power than SBC heads can do. Good aftermarket SBC heads start performing where some mild porting to BBC will be.

I've given up using OEM parts for performance. Although power can be made, you're always going to have something fail. I'm to the point now where nothing on or in my engine is a factory component. The alternator is still a GM part but that's it. Everything else is an aftermarket replacement including the block. The Dart big M block far surpasses the performance potential of an OEM block.

 

3.7HP per cube... why not just go 454 then? You can obtain the horsepower of whatever you put on that 350 making 1,000HP for cheaper. If you're going to build a high horsepower engine, the majority are going to use a big block.

The question is, do you REALLY want this kind of power for the street? Sure you'll be taking it to the strip every once in a while, but this thing could be quite dangerous on the street. Not to mention you need a crazy beefed up trans to support this power (thinkin TH350/400 or even a TH2004R if you want overdrive). And again you'll need to beef up the rear and the rest of the car, probably want a rollcage in there as well.

 

twin turbo a big block 454 isnt going to be that easy with our 3rd gen engine bays.

What is your defination of a quick street car? A twin 350 setup will easily do mid 600 whp range and threaten high 9's at well over 135mph. You will have a hard time using that power onthe street. Trust me i know. My 401 is a mild motor with just 14psi its over 650whp on a mustang dyno and has gone 9.8's at 141 on 93 pumpgas. it isnt even launching that hard yet.

Building a big block and then doing turbos is overkill unless you want 8 second car. I'd stick with the 350, throw a small set of twins on it, 57-60mm range ( i have 60mm's on my 401 but think they are a touch small) give it 12-14psi and call it a day. Over 600whp on a dyno jet and well into the 10's and having perfect streetability

Then again not much difference in price to do a 383 so thats a great option too, give it 10psi, again over 600whp and a very fast street car. TT 350 or 383 is what I'd do

I wouldnt push the factory block much more than 650whp anyway

 

Stephen 87 IROC--
I WANT an 8-71!! Getting it is another story!!
...SOME DAY...

{edit}
NRE cost around $30k or something like that?

 

Sure it is but the turbos won't actually be in the engine bay. They get mounted in the area in front of the front wheels on the outside of the framerails.

Getting an 8-71 is easy. Coming up with the money is another thing. They're on sale right now. $3700, just add carbs or any other induction system.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-B...Q5fCarQ5fParts

Or a complete system if you want to run carbs for $5800

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-B...Q5fCarQ5fParts

 

Be really different. Find an early third gen with a 2.5L iron duke engine and slap a turbo on it. In race trim, those engines were capable of making over 300 HP with no power adders.

 

Be like the mid 80's SVO stangs with their turbo 2.3's. I seen those run into the 8's with enough boost

 

I was actually thinking of the turbos that mount at the rear of the car,in the stock muffler location.They make kits for the 4th gens,running the tubing would be a major hassle,but it would save engine bay room.A BB in a 3rd gen isn't nearly as tight as everyone makes it out to be.
My issue with TT on a SB,is block durability.No way would I do it with a 400 block,and I have seen well prepped 350 blocks split cylinders under boost.IMO,a SB of any HP level over 500 needs to be in an aftermarket block.Therefore,making a BB a cheaper way to make HP.
I've been told my whole life how BB will cost so much more to build.While this may be true to a certain point,if your looking to make 600-700HP,a 454 will actually be cheaper to build,as you need less aftermarket parts,and the cubic inch factor is already way in your favor.

 

I never thought the STS turbos mounted at the rear were a very good idea. Too much exhaust plumbing to reach the turbo (think turbo lag) and too much compressed air plumbing back to the front.

 

Are you talking about if I was to do a build like this, a twin turbo 383? For me, it'd be T-56, I never want another automatic in my life. T-56's when built can easily handle 700+ Horses.

What's wrong with having that kind of power on the street? Who in their right mind is dumb enough to gun any engine, even a 300 Horsepower small block in a populated area? Think about it for a second, it really bothers me when people see a problem with high horsepower on the street.

Do people realize that a 1,000+ engine is NOT making 1,000 horsepower constantly? How could it POSSIBLY be dangerous on the street, when driving normally, around 2,500-3,000 RPM? I'd be going the same exact speed with 250 Horsepower as I would with 2,500, horsepower does not change gearing. So how could it possibly at all be dangerous, unless I, or anyone is out gunning the throttle with that kind of power?

Sorry to use you as an example, Justin, but I need to prove a point here.

Check out some of Orr89rocz videos, just see how docile a 9 second car can be on the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCjJ3MhZyVY

To make a car dangerous on the street, whether it be 250, or 1,000 Horsepower, you truly have to be dumb, or just showing off. First off, at cruising speed, in the 2,000 RPM range, you'd be lucky to be producing 100 HP to the wheels, even with a 1,000 HP engine at cruising speeds. Gasoline engines are a funny concept, they work more when their is more load, which is why at highway speeds, the 1,001 Horsepower Bugatti Veyron only produces 50 Horsepower.

 

Stephen, whether that plumbing is 10, or 50 feet long, it is impossible for it to lose pressure in a closed system, UNLESS, there are temperature variations. From the beginning of the intake plumbing at the rear of the vehicle, to the intake, the intake charge has been shown to only lose just a half PSI of pressure, that is due to the cooling effect the piping has.

There really is no lag when it comes to modern turbochargers. Head over to STS in Utah, they'd probably show you in first person that lag is not a word in their vocabulary.

This is probably common elementary basics for you, but a turbo system works the same as a garden hose, once you get water flowing through it, there is no wait, or in this case, lag. As long as the turbo is spooling, and the engine is pushing at least 2,000 RPM, there will be very good throttle response. I like a good high powered big cube N/A engine as much as the next guy, but have you ever seen any videos of the STS Camaros? Those things are VIOLENT when they mash the loud pedal, it's kind of neat considering their starter kits run a whole 6-8 PSI on average.

 

I kinda figure some lag to be a good thing considering he will likely be running street tires.

 

Lag is only good if it happens below like 60mph before full power is hit. In third gear rolls with just 12 psi on my 401 it just rips tires apart below 55mph speeds, since boost comes on very fast. No lag. Only time it doesnt spin is if i'm going atleast 55-60, preferably faster. Lag would help if i was at 45mph and floored it and the car slowly came up into boost and was able to reach speeds above 55mph before hitting full boost and power.

I dont think he means it like that... but is saying with high hp car, its harder to enjoy it on the street because we all want to play around at times and do gun it. 350-400whp car can hook better on street tires than a 600-700whp+ car so you gotta be careful when you try to floor it. If your not carefull it may break loose and you could lose control. I know i have to be very cautious which makes the car not as fun on the street. quick car that hooks on the street is more fun than something that is fast as hell but cant use the power unless your going fast to begin with

The vid makes it look worse than it is too, because camera is rigid to the roll bar so it is vibrating alot. The ride is actually very smooth and pretty quiet inside when under 2000 rpm, or slightly above, as it seems to resonate at that rpm and makes interior noise very loud

 

Exactly. It is dangerous. Yes you can "not be stupid" and drive it like a grandma, but that isn't going to happen all the time. If you want to drive on the street, you really shouldn't do it with such a motor because eventually it's going to bite you whether you think so or not.

Point still stands as well that a 454 would be easier and cheaper to build up to that kind of power. An t-56? Sure. Go ahead. I know it can be built for 700hp, but I doubt it'll be built for a 1000+ hp engine and withstand it very easily, which is what everyone was talking about.

 

They can be build to handle it but it is NOT cheap

 

No, it is NOT dangerous. I have been getting so sick of the people that claim it is dangerous, just because there is a PEAK horsepower number, does NOT mean it's making that power ALL THE TIME. I'm not trying to be mean here, but if you really think it is harder or more dangerous to drive a 1,000 HP car, than it is a 300 HP car, you have no experience around them types of cars, and are incapable of regular driving.

You let out the clutch, and keep it around 2,000 RPM, same as any other car, right? Right. I'll give you the links for a couple videos of Rod Saboury's street driven 2,400 Horsepower Corvette, which does 6.90's at 210.

Just because you have the power, does not mean it HAS to be used, high powered cars can be very docile, especially turbocharged cars. It's the same as driving any other car. Although, you do have to be weary, and take intio consideration the power you have at your foot.

I personally have only rode in one car that's nearly 1,000 Horsepower, and only two more that were over 500, but I find people that claim it's dangerous, have really no experience with high horsepower cars. It's the same as anythng else, until you're turning 4,000+ RPM and creating some real power. I've rode along in a nearly 1,000 Horsepower blown '72 El Camino, and a buddy's 2006 Lamborghini Gallardo SE, which I believe are right around the 500 Horsepower mark.

I mean, for pete's sake, back in the day my own mother used to DAILY DRIVE a 5.0 Stang with nitrous, an old 4 speed Top loader, it ran 10's. Now that was a woman, my mother, that'd drive this Stang to work everyday, she's a whole 5'2" and maybe 120, no problems at all. Now if you big bad boys see a problem with that kind of power, when my mother had a 500+ Horsepower 10 second daily driver, that's pretty darn sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCw7p...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ASV...eature=related

By the way, Rod Saboury has street driven that 2,400 Horsepower Corvette for OVER 700 miles. Kind of neat, considering those videos were taken close to my house, right over in O.C. Maryland.

 

You can regular drive it but what happens when you go to use that power on the street? it gets violent very quickly, thats all we are saying

 

I forgot to address one little situation, the T-56's.

http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-56.asp

http://www.tick-performance.com/tickshift/packages/

Not to mention the handfulls of custom built T-56's out there, that are handling well over 1,000 FT.-LBS.

 

That's why you don't use it on the street. At the least, use it on an empty 3 or 4 lane highway. It's common sense to just drive over to a local strip when you feel the need to put the hammer down on that kind of power.

 

Did I say that it would be running that horse power all the time? NO I DIDN'T. The fact is, streeting around with a motor CAPABLE of that horsepower rating is DANGEROUS. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

You don't seem to get it. Just drop it. Just because it's common sense to use the power at the strip does not mean that common sense will be used 100% OF THE TIME while on the street. Even using that power on the high way is dangerous. Highways are not designed for high power and high speed. There are curvs, bumps, etc etc. They are only kept up to date enough so that people can go 60-70 on them on normal commutes, not for racing.

 

Quit arguing for the sake of arguing? Why would I? I'm pointing out legitimate facts, and I guess you are embarrassed to come to the realization that 2,000+ Horsepower cars are driven on the street. There is the Merlin V12 powered 55 Chevy, that creates 3,000 BHP, Rod Saboury of course, Andy Frost with Red Victory 1. Then there is Tom Nelson at NRE who street drives numerous 1,000+ Horsepower cars, and trucks for that matter. On top of that, there's the dozens of street legal Pro Mods that are regularly driven to cars shows, other random meets, the strip, etc.

You stated in a previous post that you can drive it like a grandma, but it will not happen all the time, why won't it? If someone has the common sense and cash to build such a powerful car, that they want to purposely make street legal, they're going to drive it like a grandma. Why not? The roads are dangerous enough, most people just have enough plain common sense to not smash their foot down on a pedal that controls that kind of power.

You are never going to factually convince me, or anyone for that matter that it is dangerous. Do you watch the news, do you drive down busy highways regularly? There are 160 Horsepower Hondas and Toyotas that get in absolutely HORRIFIC accidents, where people are killed. I'm sure you're aware.

So say you're cruising along, keeping that power under control, what difference is there between a 160 odd horsepower grocery getter, and a 1,000+ Horsepower street legal dragster? The gas mileage, that's about it. You say that the power will bite them, yet that contradicts everything this little debate is about. If they are too simple minded to not be mature about that power, they should not have it, or at least keep it at the track. The point of this is, a high horsepower car is NOT dangerous if you're easy on it.

You make it sound as if people are not physically capable of keeping that power under control, as if the car will accelerate and spool them turbos up on it's own. Bottom line is, if you think any amount of horsepower is dangerous, you're sadly mistaken, it cannot be dangerous unless it is actually making that power, and there is an unexperienced driver behind that wheel.

I find that a lot of people tend to go along into that crowd, that claim:

"OH NO HIGH HORSEPOWEZ CAR ON TEH STREET DANGEROUS"

Actually have very little experience around dragsters, or just modified high powered street cars. I'm no Mr. Super Duper Drag Racer, but think about it, a few of the IROC's were capable of nearly 150 right out of the factory with barely 200 Horsepower, that's dangerous in it's self.

I'll stop rambling now, I've gotten my point through.

 

Just one little last thing. You say the Horsepower in it's self is dangerous. How? What about at 2,000 RPM cruising through town, or 65 down the highway? We're not talking about racing, we are talking about perfectly legal street driving, not smashing the gas pedal down at every intersection.

You seem to think I'm on the subject of some type of street racing, no. The fact of the matter is, that no amount of Horsepower is dangerous on the street, if kept under control and at the speed limit, well of course, except for the emissions.

Sure, highways are not designed for that type of speed, yet how often do you see them little R!cers buzzing around at 75 MPH? I know I've seen them go over 100 down my street, which is a 25 MPH zone. Fact of the matter is, that driving as a whole is dangerous, the world is over populated, and Horsepower does not change that.

 

Will add this to keep on topic, I think a 350 with twins can be built to 500-600whp on the cheap if you fab everything yourself and run Code 59 like I do. that way its all readily available parts and electronics that are easy to use and fit the car well.

Simple log manifold setup with T57's will support that 500-600whp mark and wont cost an arm and a leg if you use cheaper turbos like master powers or find some used turbonetics 60-1's or similar. I got about 3000 in my twin kit including turbos/hotside/coldside. Dont need to put too much into the motor to handle that power. Good rods/pistons and thats about it. Work the tune and its gonna be cheaper and more streetable than trying to build that big block for that power...atleast so i think.

 

Do the 454, and put the turbos in the front. You can run low boost on pump gas and make 700+hp with no intercoolers on mostly stock bottom end. It will be super docile to drive around and last forever.

You can either run custom headers for the turbo or use a set of 88-95 truck manifolds turned around with a short J tube to the turbo. Mount the wategate in the J tube. Make sure the turbo flange is braced back to the heads to help support the weight of the turbos. You can do a blow through carb setup easily. Pay attention to the oil returns. Tune the engine FAT to start and sneak up on the proper A/F ratio.

Pay the money to get a good fuel system - like an Areomotive A1000. Run low compression flat top pistons (forged) with open chamber heads and a single pattern cam with a wide lobe seperation and somewhere between 220-230 degrees duration.

You will need a cowl hood for the BBC.

I am running a 454 with forged pistons, stock rods with good bolts, a stock cast crank, and a 2 bolt block. The turbos are a pair of 62-1's and it makes over 800hp/1000ft-lbs @5200rpm with a large intercooler and blow through carb on a torquer intake. Heads are mildly ported peanut ports and the cam is a split duration 224/232@50 on a 114LSA hydralic flat tappet with under .550 lift. Compression is 7.54:1 and boost is only 15psi. This is in my 55' Wagon.

My friend is running a 427 truck block with forged pistons, stock crank, and Scat long rods. It has a set of fully ported closed chamber oval ports, a large Weiand Team G, and it looks like he is using the Comp 280AH cam. Turbos are larger T70's. Its not together yet but should make well over 1000hp with EFI and intercoolers. Its going into a Capri.

Both are street cars that could be driven daily. TH400 in the 55' with a 2000 stall, and a PG behind the 427 in the Ford.

 

Why would I be embarrassed because some kid thinks that kind of horsepower on the street isn't dangerous? You obviously do not get anyone's point here on WHY it is dangerous. Like I said, just stop.

 

Thanks for not reading and comprehending a word I said.

 

Isn't it always nice to be extremely insecure, and just figure that everyone is a kid? I guess you cannot handle the fact that 2,000+ Horsepower street legal cars are street driven, regularly. Rod Saboury has put almost 1,000 miles on his Vette.

Just stop? Why would I? Your tiny mind can't think up a single legitimate reason of HOW high amounts of Horsepower is dangerous. What you're doing is assuming people that have that amount of power will be immature at one point or another. That's essentially talking apples and oranges. You do not know everyone, or what they will do.

All cars are dangerous at some point or another, does the Horsepower affect that? No, simply because almost every production car today comes close to hitting 150 MPH or OVER, easily in the case of most V8's.

You're right, I am not getting your point, because you have not even stated a decent factual point. You're relying on personal accounts which are totally in theory, of what you THINK would happen. Nice job on that, kiddo. I can also assume.

You can have fun replying again, to just say "stop". You should of never began in the first place, although. That's YOUR problem that you hopped in trying to tell me what's what. You're the cause of this thread going off topic in the first place, because of that.

 

I'd take that advice.

Justin is the god of twin turbo Third Gens!

 

Insecure? This is the internet. Are you really trying to argue over the internet? I caused the problem? I simply replied and commented and you started arguing about it. Even though others have replied and said the same thing I have.

Only reason I am telling you to stop is because you are contributing to ruining this thread. I have made my point as well as everyone else that replied, so why do I need to make it again? Can you peanut brain not comprehend what I am trying to say unless I hammer it in over and over and post links to Youtube videos and say "Well this person ran a car with that much HP and blah blah blah blah". I don't care about your references. I have made my point, you have made your's, move on.

 

Sure sure, I'll move on, but that was priceless.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Me making a typographical error was priceless? I don't follow. I could point out your grammatical errors and poor English, but I don't.