Drac0nic,
I hear what you're saying now. I'll be sure to do just that. Thanks for the advice.

 

Is this still just a bunch of talk or has any work been done?

 

Nope, unfortunately, this is still a bunch of talk. Lack of money sucks...

However, if anyone wishes to donate to the EcoteCamaro Fund, donations will be gladly accepted...LOL!

 

I'd be curious to see one of these in the 3rd gen...

Is the hardest obstacle the mounts for the engine or transmission. There are LS2 Solstices running around BTW...

 

I've found bellhousing adapters to mate a T5 to an Ecotec, so the transmission crossmember and mounting shouldn't be a problem. Engine mounts seem to be the biggest obstacle. Some kind of adapter will probably have to be worked up...

 

What about the 700R4\4L60? I'm looking for a different engine for my Camaro that isn't a GM V8 or V6. Right now I'm actually gearing up for the SBF 302 but wouldn't be opposed to a 4200 I6 or Ecotec I4. Don't care about speed really, just a 0-60 time of less than 6 sec. That means about 275-300 bhp at the crank with the weight of the 3rd gen.

An Ecotec with the supercharger would be awesome if it wasn't more expensive than putting the SBF 302. I've got my heart set on the 302...

 

Gears had a show on about making your own motor mounts. Just take some cardboard to get a pattern for your mount then cut it out of plate steel. Weld it together and bolt it in place.

 

Damn I would of loved to have seen that.

 

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Old's%20Alero.htm
I finally found the place that makes the Ecotec to 700R4/200R4/4L60 adapter. That should get just about any automatic mated up to an Ecotec.

You might need less that 275-300HP at the flywheel to get a 6 second 0-60 time. An all aluminum I4 will take A LOT of weight off.

Making 300HP with an LSJ isn't that hard. I'd recommend this:
http://www.ottperformance.com/store/...Kit-4p1121.htm
That's a bolt on kit that should get you right at about 300HP for $2,200. Most junkyard LSJ's around here go for about $1,200. You'll probably have to make up some custom headers to let the LSJ breath. Maybe some Solstice headers could be made to work...

Mounts probably wouldn't be a huge obstacle, but they're the biggest one I can think of for this swap.

 

This is some awesome info!! So my biggest concern are the mounts. Since I'd have the transmission back already in place the mounts would indeed be the hardest obsticle. The money I can save by keeping the transmission back can pay for the fabricating of the mounts yes?

I'd LOVE to do this swap. An I4 with forced induction putting out V8 numbers is salivating. Plus my gas mileage would literally double haha!

 

That depends on whether you have someone else do the fabrication of the mounts. I don't know how much some shops charge for "custom work"...

About 300WHP is possible with that Harrop TVS Supercharger upgrade. I know Cobalt SS Supercharged's make 205-215WHP, but I don't know if a RWD set-up will sap more of that power in parasitic drivertrain loss...

LOL! I know my Cobalt SS Supercharged makes 30MPG, but, I have a feeling with that supercharger upgrade, the mileage wouldn't be that good.

 

Also, if you're going to do the LSJ with the Harrop TVS Supercharger upgrade, you'll really want to consider these upgrades as well:

ZZP LSJ Dual-Pass Intercooler Plate Kit
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=855&catid=188

ZZP LSJ S3 Cobalt Heat Exchanger
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=895&catid=188

Option B for Dual-Pass Intercooler
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=980&catid=188

Those items would make sure the air going into the combustion chambers is as cool as possible.

You also might want to think of possible cost of custom headers, too. It'll be impossible to tell if Solstice/Sky headers would work until an actual test-fit.

 

This is all good info and exactly the info I need before I make my final decision. I have a question about the Ecotec. What's the power output without the forced induction with the Ecotec? Is it more or less than the 3.1 that comes stock in the 3rd gen? Just curious.

 

Common Ecotec Engines:
L61 - 140-149HP/145-155LB-FT
LE5 - 169-173HP/163-167LB-FT
LSJ (Supercharged) - 205HP/200LB-FT
LNF (Turbocharged) - 260HP/260LB-FT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Fa..._engine#Ecotec

Original V6 Engines in 3rd-Gen Camaro's:
LC1 - 102HP/145LB-FT
LB8 - 135HP/165LB-FT
LH0 - 135-140HP/180-185LB-FT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_60-Degree_V6_engine

The non-forced-induction Ecotec engines are very comparable in performance to the 60* V6's found in the 3rd-Gen's. A little less torgue, but, with less weight to push around (the V6's were iron-head and iron-block), the performance will probably feel at least the same if not better with either of the naturally-aspirated Ecotec's.

I still believe the best place to start is with an LSJ, though...

 

Oh I agree completely. I'd almost wonder if the LE5 would be compatible with the supercharger or turbo of the LSJ\LNF?

 

You could throw the Eaton M62, Harrop TVS, or a turbocharger on the LE5, but the higher compression ratio of 10.4:1 of the LE5 would really limit how much boost you could push. Also, I don't know how the VVT of the LE5 would react to forced-induction. The LE5 doesn't have a forged crankshaft like the LSJ, either.

 

CORRECTION: There are people who have supercharged the LE5. Basically, the take everything from an LSJ. Intake mainfold, intercooler, supercharger, ECU, and install in on the LE5. Proper tuning is a MUST, though. Most make 230+ WHP. The Harrop TVS would make even more power if the compression ratio were a little lower for more boost. Turbocharged LE5's have also been done. EcotecForums would be a great place to find most of that. All Ecotec's have the same architecture.

 

Cool, I'll check that place out. Thanks for the info. I wouldn't mind swapping a cheaper and easier to obtain LE5 and just adding the forced induction to it later.

 

Hmmm...okay. After further searching, I think your idea is probably a bit better. It seems my quoted price of an LSJ out of a junkyard for $1200 was a little low. Most of the junkyard LE5's go for about a fourth the price of a junkyard LSJ.

Forged lower-compression pistons might be a good upgrade.

Otherwise, these might interest you:
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...1165&catid=143
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=922&catid=143

 

What do LE5's go for right now with 30,000-50,000 miles?

 

Going off of Car-Part.com, I found four LE5's at a salvage yard only 25 miles away from where I live for $450 a piece with between 14,429 and 65,669 miles on them.

I wish I could find one out of a Solstice that's close by. Those LE5's would already have the mount set-up for RWD...

 

I cannot get the car-part.com site to search for engines as a whole...

But I think the LE5 is the way to go first...now just need to find out if either the 700R4 can be adapted to be used or if the 6L80 can work. The LE5 was used in a lot of GM cars, this means the availability is high.

 

Hmmm...I've never had a problem using Car-Part.com. Just search using a car the LE5 came in and it will come up with results of any car that came with that engine.

That adapter I found earlier in this thread will work with the 700R4. Here's the link, again:
http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Old's%20Alero.htm

You'll probably need to create a custom transmission crossmember to work with the 6L80.

Yes, there were dozens of available LE5's in junkyards off of Car-Part.com...

 

I BINGed, and decided that this is where I needed to go, and it sure looks like I made the right choice...

I've got a '91 Firebird V6(picked it up for $500 - it needs work), and one of the first thoughts through my head was 'Man, it'd be friggin' sweet to drop an almighty Ecotec in it...', thinking that combined with the fact that it is one of the most aerodynamic cars GM has made, the equivalent power and weight savings would mean some crazy-good gas mileage, while retaining the potential to decimate most anyone who dares to try me, as well as an exhaust note that would likely confuse the hell outta onlookers...

Strangely, the mounts hadn't occured to me as being an issue - I was more concerned with wiring... of course, I knew none of it was gonna be a cakewalk, which is why I came here in search of info...

Another issue is funding, so I'll gladly be accepting donations to the LNF-bird fund...

Also, would my preference for an automatic be an issue...?

 

If you're planning on splicing the Ecotec wiring harness into your stock Firebird wiring harness, then, yes, that will be a lot harder fabricating motor mounts.

LOL! I asked for donations, first, man! Donations come my way first! If I get enough, then the donations can start going your way.

If you want to use the 700R4 automatic, then look up a few posts to the thread for the Ecotec to GM automatic transmission adapter. If you want to use a different kind of automatic, you're on your own for fabrication of a crossmember.

 

I plan on using the harness from the donor car. The only cutting or splicing would be for lights and such. I will be building a custom aftermarket gauge cluster so no need to use my old tired cluster. This will also give me the opportunity to rewire my car the way I want and add additional interior lighting as well.

 

I've completely stripped out all the wiring from my Camaro. I'm planning on getting a universal 12-circuit wiring harness to replace the wiring. I've got manual windows and don't really care for "luxury" features. Will probably simplify the stock Ecotec harness to be self-enclosed or just go with a "standalone" ECM.
Just need horsepower, torque, and tunes...

 

Okay, found an issue with going the supercharged route. The M62, stock LSJ, supercharger's inlet and throttle-body extend 4-1/2 inches past the edge of the valve cover. This would be the rear of the motor in a longitudinal RWD set-up. Using a T5 or 700R4, in the stock 3rd-Gen location, would probably mean that the supercharger inlet and throttle-body would protrude through the firewall. And, from what I can tell, the Harrop TVS upgrade supercharger is the same configuration.

I can think of a few ways to still make a supercharged Ecotec work:

1) Cut a hole in the firewall, stick the supercharger inlet and throttle-body through the hole upon installation, and then route a air intake tube back out the firewall toward the front of the vehicle. I have no idea what, if anything, would interfere with this on the cabin-side of the firewall.

2) Move the engine and transmission forward towards the front of the vehicle. This will probably mean even more custom work in terms of motor-mounts and transmission crossmembers. This will also jeopardize weight-distribution and center-of-gravity advantages of going with an Ecotec motor.

3) Use a different supercharger. Both the M62 and Harrop TVS superchargers appear to be one-piece designs, but there are other superchargers out there that are two peice designs allowing different inlet configurations. See this article:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ons/index.html
Using the Magnuson MP90 supercharger might a better option anyways for the larger displacement LE5. The MP90 is also of a two-piece design with the inlet being detachable.

I've also found Harrop's site where they seem to have the same size Harrop TVS supercharger as the upgrade for the LSJ, but with a detachable inlet. This might work as well, but I'll wait on this part of the project seeing as I don't even have an engine mounted properly in my 3rd-Gen, let alone the engine.

Just sharing information.

If you're going turbocharged, this, obviously, won't be a problem for you.

 

Going into the firewall should work well and the cowl is a great source of fresh air. I wouldn't route tubing to the front of the car.

With the hvac gone, there is a ton of room under the dash. I mounted a flex-a-lite heater under my dash.. works good.

 

i'd love to see this. i've been thinking about swapping an Ecotect in my Z28 or a 67-72 C10. pretty nice gas mileage and 260 hp! man that would be nice

 

This is bad news for me really, I really wanted the roots supercharger.

Are there any other clearance issues?

HOWEVER, the solution for the supercharger issue is to just use the LNF Ecotec turbo setup and bypass the need to cut my firewall (which I will not do). This also provides a higher power base over the supercharger. One issue that might rear it's ugly head with the turbo setup is the exhaust manifold and how much room we'd have to work with on that side of the engine...

Also, what about adding a smaller turbo farther down the exhaust for additional boost?

 

260 HP? That's a joke, these things put down 250+ to the wheels at a local shop(livernois motorsports). With just a tune they put down 280+/320lb-ft. A cold air and cat back result in over 300/340 to the wheels. Thank you GM for under rating another engine!

 

That's good news for me then isn't it? . Less upgrades I have to do to meet my goal of 300bhp.

Got any links go stock dynos so I can see those numbers myself?

 

Link to the dyno info:

http://www.motownmuscle.com/forums/s......&highlight=

 

AutoRoc,
You're that guy doing the 4200 I6 swap into a 3rd-Gen aren't you? What do you mean by cowl? A cowl hood? Or that panel between the hood and the windshield? Oh, and I'd rather these beautiful engines be under-rated from the factory and be pleasently surprised by their more than advertised output.

Convoy25,
Hopefully, the Ecotec-swap will be a well-documented reality in the near future.

VonKaiser,
You might not have to cut the firewall to still go supercharger. Check this article:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ons/index.html
In this article they use a Magnuson MP90 which you can get without an inlet:
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/
That way you can fabricate your own inlet that will clear your firewall. Or, you can use this:
http://www.harrop.com.au/sc_detail.php?prod=HTV1320GEN
Basically, the same supercharger as the Harrop TVS LSJ supercharger upgrade I mentioned earlier, but without a built in inlet. Again, you could fabricate your own inlet to clear your firewall.
The only problem I can see going with the LNF is the availability of these beautiful engines in the junkyard. Prices for a junkyard LNF seem to be about the same as an LSJ. Otherwise, this would definitely be the way to go.
Oh, and here's something I found about a sequentially turbocharged Ecotec:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...ts/77_mgb.html
That's all the information I can find. But if you start with the LNF, I don't think you'll need another turbocharger in the mix. Hell, you should be able to make 400RWHP, and as good in torque, with a hopped up LNF...

 

Oh awesome, that's some great info. If I do this swap I won't be going with the actual LSJ or LNF Ecotec engine as a whole--I'll be using the larger displacement LE5 which is much cheaper and easier to locate. I'll just need the ECU, wiring, intake and obviously the forced induction unit. My goal is to have around 300bhp at the crank and at least 300ft.lb. of torque regardless of what engine I choose. That should be enough scoot to get my car 0-60 in 6.0s or less. I really think this kind of swap would be brilliant once completed and running. I'd love to be sitting at a car show in a lawn chair next to my Camaro with the hood up and see people's reactions to the 4cyl engine.

Do you think it is a better idea to swap in the LE5 engine without the forced induction first to get it running and drivable before swapping in the supercharger/turbo?

Just a thought...

 

I always thought about the 4200 I6 in a thirdgen since I own an 88 GTA and a 2005 Trailblazer. The 4.2 I6 is no joke with 275hp and 275tq stock. With a tune, intake and exhaust it can go mid to low 15s and thats with a 5000 LB curb weight. The best part is that it is already made to mate with a 4L60/T-56 and it isn't 90 degrees like a V6.

 

I've emailed Bob from the transmissionadapters.com website for more info regarding his Ecotec to GM automatic trans adapter and if it is 100% compatible with my 700R4. The 2004R is slightly different than the 700R4 so I need to make sure. The 2004R's came in the other larger GM cars like the Caprice with the 305. So I'm sure I could get it to work on my Camaro.

*edit*
FYI...

 

VonKaiser,
The reaction to the I4 sitting where most people believe a V8 should be sitting is half the fun!
Doing the LE5 first will be less costly at a stage-by-stage basis. However, if you decide to go turbocharged with an LNF top-end, you'll have a lot of work to do on the LE5. The LNF has a 9.2:1 compression ratio compared to the LE5 at 10.4:1. The LNF is a direct-injection set-up with some really funky pistons. You'll have to find a way to get similar pistons into the LE5 with the right bore diameter.
In my opinion, if you want to go turbocharged, and can handle not having your 3rd-Gen running for a while, save up your nickels and dimes till you can afford the LNF. If you want to go supercharged, get the LE5 first, mount and install the engine, get her running, then, when you can afford the supercharger set-up of your choice, throw it in there, tune, and burn rubber. My ...
The main part your worried about with that transmission adapter is the bellhousing patterns between the 700R4 and the Ecotec. The 200R4 and 700R4 have the same bellhousing bolt pattern, so that adapter will cover both of them.

88WS-6,
If you're interested in a 4200 I6-swap, see this link:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-2-inline.html

 

VonKaiser,
Or...if you wanted to do the LE5 first, and then go turbochargerd, see this:
http://www.turbo-kits.com/Parts/Turb...ce_Turbo_Kits/
Also, check out the stuff for the Solstice GXP:
http://www.turbo-kits.com/Parts/Turb...tice_GXP_Kits/
535HP...sound like fun?! Expensive...but FUN!

 

I'd do an LNF swap, that thing would move. Manual trans or bust .

 

I think the LE5 with the supercharger and other bolt-ons would get me as close to my 300bhp as I want. That's all I need. My question on the LE5 is what sort of power would the LE5 produce with the supercharger. Surely more than the 205bhp 200tq versus the LSJ?

I may find an LNF when the time comes for me to get my engine and if the price is right...count on me getting one.

Those are some monster turbos in there!

 

ok wheres the pics? i think its great that someone isn't scared to try something different, good luck.

 

Camaro305SB,
If I can find an LNF for the right price, I'll probably go LNF. LOL! Stick is the only way to drive...

VonKaiser,
If I remember correctly, most guys who swap the supercharger set-up from an LSJ to an LE5 get about 220-230WHP. Then, if they do a Stage 2 pulley, 240-250WHP. Bigger headers, cold-air intake, intercooler/heat-exchanger upgrades, and a good tune would probably help get more power I think. But that's using the M62 supercharger. If you stepped up to the Harrop TVS 1320 or Magnuson MP90, which are more efficient, 300WHP would be within your grasp.
The LNF's usually go for about $2,000 and are hard to find. But they are out there...
LOL! Yeah, those are some monster turbo's! Maybe a little more power than I'd want to make!

camarozz383,
LOL! I'll get pictures up as soon as I start doing this. I definitely don't mind doing something different. Thanks for the luck!

 

What crank HP would that 220-230 number be? I'm so excited about this LE5 + supercharger swap. If I can get crank BHP around 300 I'd be happy. The Ecotec I4 is literally 200lbs lighter than my iron 305. The handling and weight reduction are going to really improve the driving dynamic.

*edit*
Also, I've been finding the 2.4L Ecotec (LE5) engines complete from intake to oil pan for around $450-550 + shipping ($150-200), the good news on this however is the mileage is very low at 25k-45k each. That's really cheap and gives me even more motivation to do it.

 

Hmmm...I couldn't tell you how much crank HP those engines are making. Most guys want to know how much power their set-up is putting to the wheels. LOL! You're going in reverse!
Basically, since you're going automatic, assume a 22% parasitic power loss. If you make 300CHP, theoretically, you'll be putting 234HP to the ground.
You would definitely hit 300CHP with an LE5, stock LSJ supercharger set-up, the Stage 2 pulley, and a good tune. However, you would have to at least cut a hole in your firewall to clear the supercharger inlet and throttle body and re-route your air intake somewhere, as I stated earlier. You could check with Eaton to see if you could get an M62 supercharger with out a built-in inlet...
I don't know exactly how much an Ecotec weighs. I've found figures from 273-350lbs. I don't even know how much a 305 weighs...
I think 200lbs. of weight saving is the absolute minimum you could expect.
LOL! Well, go get one of those LE5's!

 

Just stumbled upon this thread. Anything happening yet or is this just all hopes and dreams? I guess it would be a cool concept, but I hope you don't plan on going very fast. I could see it being good for a cruiser, but 2 downsides come to mind when thinking of this swap. First, our cars at thier lightest weigh in around 3250 lbs. Cobalts are under 3000. I would think the ecotech would be sluggish until it got into some RPM's. Second, I personally have heard many ecotech cars with exhausts and my god they are a terrible sounding 4 cylinder. I would hate to hear that sound coming from a third gen.

Also, the only ones I ever see making any decent power numbers are the newer turbo cobalts. The supercharged ones are dogs. I don't think I've ever seen one make over 230 WHP and that was at a cobalt SS dyno day with 10-15 dynoing.

Like I said, cool concept, but with a 300HP junkyard 5.3 LSx truck motor going for around $500 complete and getting 20 mpg around town, I just think there are cheaper and more useful alternatives. I know you didn't want opinions, but it seems like it could be a costly swap for the minimal performance you'd get out of it.

 

whitedevilTA,
This project should be starting in the near future. I've ordered the Ecotec/T5 bellhousing and the Spohn crossmember/torque-arm.

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. A '90 Camaro RS with a V6 and a 5-speed has a curb weight of 3,086lbs. Now, that curb-weight is with an iron head and block V6 weighing in at about 500lbs. The Ecotec inline-4 is an aluminum head and block engine weighing in at about 275lbs. So, when you lose 225lbs off the nose of a 3,086lb car, you get 2,861lbs. Now, compare this to the Pontiac Solstice GXP which weighs in at 3,031lbs. The power-to-weight ratio actually favors the Camaro, now.

Ugh...yes, I asked for no opinions. Because, invariably, I get a lot of people like you who just have to tell me this is bad idea. Most of the time, they haven't thought out this swap like I have. I've spent months researching this. Is it going to be as cheap as a LSx swap? No, I never said that. This is something new, and it won't be cheap. The LSx swap is an excellent swap, don't get me wrong. However, will your LSx swap Camaro be putting down 350WHP while making 25-35mpg and outperforming a Pontiac Solstice GXP in acceleration and handling? Probably not...

 

You've got nothing but support from my end. If I had the funds, time, and space to do a project like this I would. I like cornering more than drag racing so taking that much weight off the front of my car would make me super happy if I could keep the same power level as I have now (only about 300hp or so), but with several hundred pounds less it would be much faster.

WhitedevilTA, the turbo ecotec motors have easily been known to make 400rwhp or more with mods. The power potential is there, and not everyone needs that much power. If you have a sub 3000lb car with 400rwhp you've got a quick ride.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the ecotecs noise when its built right. I hate fart canned civics as much as anyone else, but I do enjoy the noise of a properly built 4 banger.

 

I do think it's a cool idea and if you can pull it off, more power to you. Is there any reason your specifically wanting to go with a 4 cylinder engine? What are you building the car to do? Track? Cruiser? Just to be different?

And while LS1 swaps most likely will not get close to 35 mpg, they have been known to get around 28 mpg on the highway with the 6 speed transmission. I don't know about most LS1 swaps, but when mines done it will definately outperform a solstice GXP and should still get 20 mpg around town. I'm shooting for 600 HP, but it's a turbo motor with a mostly stock bottom end so gas mileage should be good until I stomp the pedal.

But anyways, hopefully this project starts taking shape soon. It's pretty interesting.

As I said, the turbo motors seem to make decent power over the older supercharged models. Since there was talk about supercharging earlier in this thread I figured I'd throw it out there.

And as far as the noise, IDK....I've honestly heard a dozen or more cobalt SS' with exhausts and they sound like mooing cows. Just not a nice, high performance tone like you'd hear out of an EVO or something. I would want to keep the exhaust note on the quieter side.