Fallen2603

Awesome-X,

Thanks man, and, no, I don't let people get me down.

whitedevilTA,

We'll just see what happens when this build comes together. I can't say for a fact that everything I've said in this thread is absolute truth. Yes, what I have found does make this combo look good on paper. Will it be good in the real world? No one will know for sure until someone tries. That will be me. If it turns out like most of the nay-sayers say it will, I'll have no problems saying you were right, and they we'll know that this isn't a good idea. But if this does turn out to be an awesome sway, then this might be what some people want for their car. We shall see...

Z28ricer,

Yes, supercharging is still a viable option with any of these superchargers:
http://www.harrop.com.au/sc_detail.php?prod=HTV1320GEN
These Harrop superchargers are great upgrades for an Ecotec. A lot of Cobalt SS Supercharged drivers have upgraded to these superchargers with fantastic results.
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc...rchargers/M90/
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc...M112/index.htm
As long as the supercharger does not have an integral inlet, it can be used.

Hot Rod magazine actually did an article playing with supercharged Ecotec's:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ons/index.html
The only problem going supercharged is that the charge-cooler becomes a restriction, even with a dual-pass set-up. The supercharged just ends up pumping hot air into the engine. An Ecotec with a Harrop HVT1320 supercharger and a properly built dual-pass charge-cooler set-up would make a very nice 300WHP. But none of these builds have yet to make the down-low torque that a properly sized turbocharger set-up has.

91camarosRS,

That is one of the things I have to check with the engine I'm looking at. One guy who's done an Ecotec swap into his S-10 got the same motor I'm looking at, and his engine had drilled and tapped bosses on the "sides" of the motor good for a longitudinal orientation. The scematics of Ecotec engines also show bosses, drilled and tapped, on the "sides" of the engine. We can't confirm that every Ecotec motor has these, but I'll be checking for those on the engine I'm interested in.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I'm surprised on the down-low comment, though I wouldnt be surprised if you were simply seeing more in the range on a dyno, with a turbo setup spiking higher at boost onset, but actual driving, the positive displacement setup is going to put out more down low.

Several possibilities for getting around the issue of the cac, use an MP112 and design your bracketry to face the outlet away from the block rather than towards, then run an air-air cooler, roadraceengineering has a top-bottom spearco core that would both fit between a thirdgens frame rails, and allow for same side inlet/outlet, to keep piping simple.

Or fabricate a new intake manifold, fitting the mp112 and a water-air core of larger size.

19camaro83

Dangit Z28ricer.. you got me wanting to build a supercharged 2.8 now.. hehe. It just so happens that I have a running 2.8 in a donor car laying around, too Back to getting around the carb. issues again..

Fallen2603

Z28ricer,

A supercharged Ecotec will have a flatter torque-curve peaking at about 4,500rpm, usually. A turbocharged Ecotec will have a fast spike of torque peaking between 3,000-4,000rpm. Yes, this is at WOT to make boost off of the turbocharger that quick. At part-throttle conditions, the supercharger will make more torque. Not disputing that at all. The turbocharger becomes more of a..."displacement on demand" type of system. Driving around town on the street, most drivers don't need tons of torque. However, when the driver needs that torque, he just has to push the pedal to the floor, and there it is.

F-Body_Muscle

I am LOVING this thread and I can't wait to start seeing some build pics when things start going together! I think you are doing a great job with your research and planning and making sure that it will go together top-notch.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Because your narrow mind only wants to knock stuff for using other brands, and hating hondas.

Nothing logical about that, the reason i've stated its going to suck, is because it doesnt matter if he uses a chevy, honda, nissan, or hyundai engine, the small displacement in a car, he's underestimating the weight of, is going to have less than enjoyable manners around town, and by the time he gears it high enough to move along, and operate in its efficiency range for highway cruising, its going to make very little boost in the lower gears. It just doesnt work out, sure on paper all the focus is that at WOT in boost it makes similar torque to a V8 setup, in reality around town it just wont do anywhere near that.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

If you really wanted to do something like that, personally i'd go after an L67, they litter junkyards, are setup for boost from the start, and you shouldnt have THAT much trouble changing the blower to something that will work in a rwd app, plus its easy to get a T5, or T56 bolted up. Far more support for the 3800, etc etc

19camaro83

Gotta rebuild my t5 first, then I will go from there. If I don't like how underpowered the car is, I might start building the 2.8 I have. Only reason being that I already have the engine, and it is a known good engine, so I would be money ahead, in that aspect. Could make an engine to have fun for a summer or so, and when it blows, drop the old 2.8 back in her and go.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Well, hopefully you are getting what you need from the junkyard and starting to piece it together.

This is not opinion, but fact, so I'm going to weigh in. By the logic above, the 89 TTA wouldn't be the fastest/best 3rd gen ever sold at the dealership, but it WAS.

3.8 liter short block and trans leftover from the Buick Grand National. 3.8 Cylinder heads from the LeSabre that were current production, Turbo/ECM also from the GN. Custom fabbed trans crossmember with torque arm relocated away from the trans, Voila! The best 3rd gen made!

You can come close to this with your Ecotec project, I'm sure. That little Buick V6 didn't make THAT much power, it had an iron block, and old time engineering. You have lots of aluminum, better ECMs to use, better turbos to use, and on and on.

You will also have a standard shift trans to help keep the rpms up, rather than an automatic to hold you down.

I want to agree with Z28 ***** on a few FACTS. I'll leave his opinions where they are.

You do need to go with a T56 instead of the T5.

Two reasons;

First, the T-5 really does suck, and I have nuked them behind the 2.8, not just the V8 models. My current 2.8 is running a T5 from a Trans Am in it and it is getting ready to go as well. My first foray into this, I upgraded a T5 with all the heavy duty parts, and its great, but for the money I could have had the 6 speed.

Second, you need that second overdrive so that you can run a much deeper rear end ratio. You should honestly be thinking beyond 3.73, and going to 3.90-4.11 ratio to keep the rpms up quicker and give your 4-banger every advantage!

You are piecing together lots of GM stuff to get your goal accomplished; don't forget you can get 6-speed transmissions from the Cadillac CTS-V(as old as 2003 I think), GTO, and 4th gen F-body cars.

Good luck man!!

Fallen2603

To all those concerned, this is where I've been getting my Camaro curb-weight figures:
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/mo...maro_3gen.html
Make sure you select the correct year, trim package, and so forth. These weights are for vehicles WITHOUT any options. If you want to know what your 3rd-Gen Camaro weighs with T-tops, A/C, etc., use this site:
https://www.thirdgen.org/tech-data
Look under weight of accessories.

Now, as for the weight of the Ecotec engine itself:
http://www.outlawdragbike.com/showth...arts-weight-in
Even after adding up the figures from both posts #1 and #5, it comes out to about 280lbs.
Or, while a little more unorthodox of a method for weighing out an engine:
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...=ecotec+weight
Post #9 is where the weight figures are. The complete engine, minus the transaxle, comes in at 232lbs.
Granted, these are NOT NASA-certified figures. But since APPROXIMATIONS seem to constitute a logical argument for some, these should suffice.
Weight figures from GM, which I can no longer find, unfortunately, give weights between 273-307lbs. I have no idea what engine configurations these figures express.

This is why people TUNE their PCM, ECM, ECU, or whatever you want to call it. If a driver/builder does not do this, his motor will run pig-rich, have a lot of trouble of making boost, and power, at lower rpm's until the motor struggles to make enough boost to lean out the AFR to a point where good, healthy power can actually be produced.
A properly tuned turbocharged engine will usually run lean at lower rpms, and then run richer once higher boost pressure is achieved. This is how someone makes good, healthy power from a turbocharged motor.

This swap is happening. It's that simple. If this hurts people's feelings, I honestly could care less.

Fallen2603

KrisW,

Thanks for your input and support. The T5 debate has been going on FOREVER. Are they the perfect transmission. Nope, no such thing. That goes for the idea of the "perfect engine, swap, car...etc". My reasons for running the T5 are that I have one World Class transmission, and it will simplify this swap in a few ways and save me weight. Simply, Mustang guys love the World Class T5 for the most part. Several of them prefer them to the TKO-500/600. Oh no! I mentioned a Ford here on TGO! I'm going to hell! LOL! Also, my reasons for only running the 3.73's are to help give the motor some load quicker so boost is built up quicker. Most turbocharged inline-4 drivers run 3.50-3.73 rear gears for this very reason. I agree that the T56 is a better transmission, and the equal to a rebuilt T5. I may end up swapping to a T56 later on, but I'll try out the T5 first.

19camaro83

I have a cousin that has been running a T5 in his foxbody for over 10 years now. He is pushing over 400hp with his 5.0, and hammers the hell outta it. He has not had any issues with his trans, and is still running the same one. I just talked to him about this a few weeks ago at my graduation.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You completely missed the point, and it wasnt anything to do with not having a tune, upgrade the injectors without a tune and its generally not even going to run, I definetly wasnt talking about that.

Fallen2603

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Except AUTOMATIC with a special built torque converter is the way to go on a Turbo build. The automatic keeps the turbo spooled through the shifts.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

But wheres the fun in that? LOL...stick all the way for me!

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

Wrx would it have to be special? My wrx is auto and the converter is nothing special. ANd its always spooled however, the fun factor is not there lol.

ANd if this build is clean maybe its gm high tech material?

Transamthunder

iTrader: (1)

I had looked into this years ago when they came out in passing interst. The one issue I came up against was a bellhousing for the t5 from Manta part. Only problem is it is not drilled for the slant of our trannies, so you will need to have a machine shop be capable of drilling the proper offset. I do love the idea of the turbo car myself, and these motors do take a beating and keep coming back for more.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I don't know how GM ever thought up the idea to tilt the T5. If a T56 fits in there straight, then a T5 will damn well fit as well straight! Supid if you ask me. I'm sure the tranny would fit fine straight, but the crossmember would have to be custom made to go with the now tilted tranny mount (if using an F-body T5). The shifter would be easy enough since all you would need is a straight up shifter rather than a tilted one like the stock F body one. I'm sure something out of an S10 or chevy truck would work since they came with T5's as well.

You don't really have to use an F body T5 either. They came in everything through the 80's and early 90's so I'm sure you could find sometihng that worked good. My brothers TA has a T5 bellhousing bolted to a T56 with a viper tailshaft, viper shifter, mustang cobra shift lever, and cobra shift ****. You can make anything work if you have a little know how and engineering skill.

Fallen2603

Fast355, whitedevilTA, and 91camarosRS,

I NEED to have a manual transmission. It's absolutely boring otherwise. I'd have to sit on my right hand and tuck my left foot under the seat, too. LOL!

Transamthunder,

The bellhousing I'm getting is from Quad 4 Rods, but I don't know if this will give the proper angle. I'm guessing I might have to grind off the mount on the crossmember and have it moved over a bit and then re-welded. We'll see...

By the way, does anyone know what angle the transmission is tilted at in a stock 3rd-Gen F-Body?

whitedevilTA,

I never understood the reason for tilting the transmission, either. I've heard it was for more ground-clearance, which doesn't make sense. I've also heard it was to angle the shifter closer to the driver, which could've been solved with a different shifter shape. I'll figure something out once I look at how it all fits together. I don't like to brag, but I am a genius.

Fallen2603

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

WE NEED PICS!

LOL, nice to see some progress.

Fallen2603

LOL! Oh...this generation and it's NEED for INSTANT gratification.

All I'd be doing now is taking pictures of a Spohn crossmember/torque-arm, an incomplete set of Solstice/Sky mounts and brackets, and a junkyard plucked L61 Ecotec engine. Nothing spectacular there.

Not yet...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Terrible idea, using small displacement and boo......

Oh wait.....

I've scanned through this thread, to see what is being discussed, since I've had an idea to put one of these engines in my GF's car (Not a 3rd gen, or even a GM, though it is RWD...). I plan on turbo though, since I prefer it over SC.

I am interested in the details of this of this swap, since I'm sure much of it can still apply to what I'm planning.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Hahahahhahahahha! Right!

That's the neat thing about swaps like this; the details apply to anything you want to put it in, since the mounts, fuel lines, etc.. all have to be fabbed up.

I subscribed for the same reason!

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Pics or GTFO!!! Haha...pics of some parts are better than nothing!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I've never seen a Junkyard L61; I just walk right past them! We want to see it on your garage floor before you put it in!

Fallen2603

Six_Shooter,

LOL! I'm shocked to see one of the V6 guys over here! What car you looking to throw an Ecotec in to? I might be able to start pointing you in the right direction.

whitedevilTA,

LOL! Okay, okay, I'll take some pics when I get the chance.

KrisW,

I won't be using the complete L61 engine, but I will be using the top-end. I'll be picking up an LE5, and that will be the bottom-end I use. LE5 bottom-end + L61 top-end = LE5/L61 hybrid. Yes, this has been done before. Only one-off parts you need is a custom reluctor-wheel for the DIS, some extra crank-position sensor wire, and a custom head-gasket to get the right compression ratio. This way, you get more displacement and you don't have to worry about drive-by-wire, direct-injection, or VVT. I'll take pictures of the L61, too, though.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Hey I'm here to... Just been lurking in the shadows

Fallen2603

LOL! This makes me wonder how many V6 guys are "lurking in the shadows" on my thread! Well, an underdog is an underdog, be it a V6 or an I4 underdog.

Guest

I'm a V8 lurker. You're 4 pages in, and not yet even 1 pic of the engine even sitting in the engine bay.
Yes, there's a lot to figure out. So get it in there, and get started!
You're being Picard, holding a staff meeting in the ready room. You're the first, so there is no research to be done. Be Kirk, do something!
The 454 fits, surely yours will fit, even if it takes a cowl hood!

Fallen2603

ronnjonn,

LMFAO! Yes, sir!

Guest

As the Picard / Kirk references alluded to, there are 2 different approaches to doing an all-new swap.
I'm obviously old-school, try it and see.
I really don't see how the other approach can work at all, so I'm following your thread with real interest.
I can't fully grasp why you're trying to figure out S-10 or Solstice mounts, when you could do it old-school.
The conventional way works as follows: just position the engine, then use scissors and cardboard to make templates. Then use the templates to jig-saw and drill some 1/4" steel plate. From there, bolt the block plate to the block, bolt the frame plate to the frame, and spot-weld. Next, un-bolt the mount, and fully weld the parts together. Then clean it up all pretty, paint it, and let it dry. Now your new mount is ready to show and go.
I do hope your project runs, but it needs to be running sooner, then pretty it up later. It's true when they say that dreams move on if you wait too long.
Get it done, then sell swap kits. If it runs quick enough at the dragstrip, and gets enough MPG, you may be able to quit your day job, and sell your mounts instead!

Fallen2603

ronnjonn,

LOL! I have no delusions about making money off of this!

I'm doing this as MY CAR. I will build it right, THE FIRST TIME, to meet MY SPECIFICATIONS. I do not want solid mounts. Also, I'm not going to just stick the motor in there and weld up a set of mounts without having the transmission figured out as well. That is why this project is currently sitting still. I'm still waiting on the transmission bellhousing.

As to "dreams move on if you wait too long"...well, this project/idea has been 8-9 months in the making, and it has only gained momentum. I'm not in the habit of giving up easily...

This project will happen as it happens. I'm as eager to get going on this as anyone, but I will not charge in blindly without eliminating as many variables as I can. I prefer to "fight smart, not hard".

Fallen2603

For those of you demanding some pictures:

Intake-side bracket (PN#15876977)


Intake-side mount (PN#10351213)


Exhaust-side bracket (PN#10345238)


Exhaust-side mount (PN#21999166)


Spohn torque-arm


Spohn crossmember with polyurethane transmission mount

Fallen2603

Several pictures of the Ecotec L61 2.2L engine




I had an idea to see if the intake-side bracket would also work on the exhaust-side. This bracket would be the easiest to use, since it is a 90* angle, to make this motor sit "straight-up" instead of slanted like they are in a stock Solstice.

Exhaust-side before and after intake-side bracket test-fit:




Intake-side bracket on intake-side of engine, before and after:



As you can see with how the intake-side bracket fits on the intake-side of the engine, compared to the exhaust-side with intake-bracket, they are virtually mirror-image of eachother. I'm liking this scenario for the moment

Fallen2603

This is what the car looked like when I got it, at first.

Fallen2603

Last summer was spent tearing the car down to this point, its current "blank canvas repose"...

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Really cool idea. I read a WTB thread for a guy looking for an iron duke inline 4 Camaro. I told him he should just consider an ecotec swap. Especially them turbo ecotecs, they're pretty powerful for a little 4 banger.

Hopefully you figure out a way to get it done. I'm all for a traditional V8, but I'd like to see something like this done. I've thought about everything from a Honda H22 2.2 liter, to a BMW V12.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I've been working on my project for 4 years now wihtout driving it once. I just see it sitting in my garage every single day not moving, but it's coming more and more together as I go. I am SO much more excited to get it done and drive it at this point than when I even started the project while it was a "dream." I have not and will not lose my motivation to finish my car and when it's done I will drive it till the day I die. If your motivated enough, you will not give up on something, as I havn't either.

And thanks for the pics! Nice to see the beginning shots so we can see how it progresses.

Fallen2603

ShadowZ,

I had considered an "Iron Duke" inline-4, but there doesn't seem to be ANY aftermarket for those motors. And the Ecotec is many times better. Making power with them is not difficult at all.

There are many great motors that could find their way into a 3rd-Gen F-Body. Nissan SR20's, KA24's, and VQ3x's. Mitsubishi 4G63's. Honda H22's or K24's. Toyota 3S-GE's or 2JZ's. There are a lot of great motors in the world that aren't made in the US. I just prefer to stay within manufacturer domains when it comes to swaps.

whitedevilTA,

Preach it, brother! AMEN!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

There are TONS of aftermarket stuff still out there for the old Iron Duke. Like the Buick V6 it had a rather large following in the 80's, but it has dropped off more in the last decade or so than the turbo Buick has.

You can still get intakes, headers, cams etc. It's even possible to get the super duty head. You can also swap on a Pontiac or Chevy head, with some mods.

From a budget standpoint, its probably cheaper to go EcoTec just because the wrecking yards are so full of them.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

I'm glad I ran across this, I can't wait to see the end result. Although I'd probably start a fresh thread for the actual building and save this one for the philosophical debates LOL. Now who's gonna build a thirdgen with a fifthgen 3.6 V6?

Fallen2603

KrisW,

I feel the Ecotec is a better motor than the Iron Duke for performance potential. I have no intentions of trying to use the Iron Duke. But...if I could get a hold of some mounts and brackets...that would be cool.

musclecar70sfan,

LMAO! Considering how many people can't respect a thread starter's wishes to not hear the constantly repititious opinions born of NOT-A-V8-PHOBIA, I'm sure, if I started a new thread, it would quickly become CONSTIPATED with the "philosophical debates" I had PLEADED be avoided in this thread. If you do get to that 3.6L LLT V6 swap, I'd be more than interested in following your progress.

musclecar70sfan

iTrader: (1)

Haha thanks, although I doubt I'll ever be able to pull something like that off. I'd consider it with a regular base Camaro/Firebird but not my TA convertible. The odds of me getting another thirdgen now are also negligible so it's a long shot LOL. I might swap in a 383 or something into my car in the future though... your choice if you wanna follow that swap hahaha.

Fallen2603

Yeah, definitely don't do a LLT swap into your TA convertible. Well, if you want a 383 stroker, I've got one that I'm not using any more. I'd follow the swap.

72vega

iTrader: (9)

glad to see some progress!

Fallen2603

72vega,

Thanks man! Oh, and if you have a Vega, that would be an even better car to swap an Ecotec in to. It's on my list.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I bet you could pick that thing up and put it in there with a battery holder.

I've seen those 2.2 ecotec motors put out 1k hp when fully built and boosted, they are nothing to laugh at. Very cool project man! I'm subscribed to this one.

jersyboyy

iTrader: (8)

subscribing